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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 11:36:20 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Minimum wage is the big one. Obama wants to raise it up to somwhere around $9.50 an hour. Which is catastrophic to the economy because many small businesses cant afford to pay that. Most small businesses and the mom and pop stores operate on fragile and small budgets. They dont get these giant surpluses of profits that the mega-corporations have.



Just about all of western Europe has a minimum wage above $9.50. Are you saying that the USA, which is the richest country in the world, can't afford to pay its poorest workers the same as its competitors?


Government isnt the biggest problem in this situation. Corporations disagree that Americans make too little. That's why they send jobs over to China for a worker who will work 60 hour weeks for $2 an hour.


I forgot, after 8 years of Bush the US economy is crumbling and its rich are wearing hair shirts.

What we say in Europe is, if a business can't afford to pay its workers a decent wage, it isn't a business.

I bet some of those American corporations are in Europe and will paying their European workers more than American workers because they can't get away with paying less. Businesses will pay their workers as little as they have to, of course they cry poverty.


The problem with raising the minimum wage Nationally is, it seems to only take into account the higher cost of living areas, it completely ignores areas where the cost of living is low.   I remember reading a topic around here lately about the costs of renting an apartment/flat/house.  There were prices ranging from on the $300 range all the way up to the $2400 range.  The cost of other necessities also follow those lines.  Therefore, for a store owner in those lower cost areas to cover the increase, they will have to raise the prices of the goods, so how much more money is actually being put into the system, as the poor will have to pay more for basic things.  It basicly comes down to government mandated inflation.

Now add on top of the National min wage increase, the proposals for raising corporate and other tax rates, and you begin adding even more burden on these businesses.

I cannot fathom how anybody thinks such a  combination of proposals is going to spark economic growth, job creation, or anything else positive.

Just my thoughts,
Thadius

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 11:46:22 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I cannot fathom how anybody thinks such a  combination of proposals is going to spark economic growth, job creation, or anything else positive.

Just my thoughts,
Thadius


Ask yourself how Germany can afford to pay its workers a higher minimal wage than the US and with universal healthcare and a reasonably priced comprehensive public transport system and still export more manufacturing products than the US? Is the US economy really on par with the third world or is someone creaming off the excess?

Probably the latter.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/4/2008 11:48:19 AM >

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 11:59:01 AM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		Are you suggesting that Germany is "third world"?  Go back a few years to right after they unified, for a few years I seem to remember a tax that was being used to bring the east up to modern standards, not to mention the welfare portion of it. 

What I am suggesting is that with the economy being in the shape it is right now, adding in additional taxes and costs is not going to increase growth, especially in the lower cost of living areas, it will have the direct opposite effect.  Mandated inflation does not have a positive affect on economic growth, it only adds more strain to an already stressed economy.

Simply put, if a company is paying min wage to it's 5 full time employees, here in Michigan it is currently $7.50, adding $2 to that brings the cost of operation up $10 per hour (5 employees x $2).  If the employer could afford an additional $10 an hour, don't you think that they would have hired another employee at the lower rate?  Why would one think that with the rate going higher that they are going to hire more, it is more likely that they will either cut the number of hours for existing employees, or perhaps let one go.

And that is without touching the added taxes.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:03:31 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Simply put, if a company is paying min wage to it's 5 full time employees, here in Michigan it is currently $7.50, adding $2 to that brings the cost of operation up $10 per hour (5 employees x $2).  If the employer could afford an additional $10 an hour, don't you think that they would have hired another employee at the lower rate?  Why would one think that with the rate going higher that they are going to hire more, it is more likely that they will either cut the number of hours for existing employees, or perhaps let one go.

And that is without touching the added taxes.


These were exactly the same fear arguments made by conservatives and small businesses when minimal wage was introduced in Britain and when it was raised, unemployment and inflation would increase. It never happened. In fact, consumer spending increased as money fed into the economy.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:10:27 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Simply put, if a company is paying min wage to it's 5 full time employees, here in Michigan it is currently $7.50, adding $2 to that brings the cost of operation up $10 per hour (5 employees x $2).  If the employer could afford an additional $10 an hour, don't you think that they would have hired another employee at the lower rate?  Why would one think that with the rate going higher that they are going to hire more, it is more likely that they will either cut the number of hours for existing employees, or perhaps let one go.

And that is without touching the added taxes.


These were exactly the same fear arguments made by conservatives and small businesses when minimal wage was introduced in Britain and when it was raised, unemployment and inflation would increase. It never happened. In fact, consumer spending increased as money fed into the economy.


I can state with almost certainty what it will do to the economy of my state, currently the worst or next to the worst in terms of unemployment and economy.  The min wage hike probably will have no effect on the "coasts" (California and NY), as their costs of living are already well ahead of those numbers. 

I can post listings to 3 bedroom houses selling for $800 (yeah eight hundred) right now, as people are running from here because of the tax policies, and job market.  I can only imagine what increased costs to buy basic goods, and increased taxes are going to do.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:10:50 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Simply put, if a company is paying min wage to it's 5 full time employees, here in Michigan it is currently $7.50, adding $2 to that brings the cost of operation up $10 per hour (5 employees x $2).  If the employer could afford an additional $10 an hour, don't you think that they would have hired another employee at the lower rate?  Why would one think that with the rate going higher that they are going to hire more, it is more likely that they will either cut the number of hours for existing employees, or perhaps let one go.

And that is without touching the added taxes.


These were exactly the same fear arguments made by conservatives and small businesses when minimal wage was introduced in Britain and when it was raised, unemployment and inflation would increase. It never happened. In fact, consumer spending increased as money fed into the economy.


...i mentioned this point earlier but no-one wanted to respond to it. Simply put, the small hit taken by employers by a rise in minimum wage is offset by the increased spending power of the working poor.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:12:57 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		If the costs are offset, then what is the purpose again?  Just to make things look better with actual dollar ammounts?

If I have more money to spend, and things are going to cost more to buy, what gain is there?  Except for the fact that now those lower income earners are or might qualify to pay more taxes.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:21:45 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

If the costs are offset, then what is the purpose again?


......if the employers costs are offset by the increased turnover at the till, then there's no need except opportunism to raise prices......


quote:

If I have more money to spend, and things are going to cost more to buy, what gain is there?


...see my above point.

quote:

  Except for the fact that now those lower income earners are or might qualify to pay more taxes.


......possibly, although i'd expect a revision of the tax code to reflect the new wage structure.  However, i'm not sure why you're arguing against putting a few more bucks into the pockets of the working poor. As i stated above, there's no need for a small rise in minimum wage to impact prices at the till.

And as Meatcleaver mentioned (and so did i in my earlier post) the experience of this happening in the UK was that there was virtually no impact on the rate of business failure. All that happened was that a large number of working poor got out of the poverty trap, the idea that welfare makes more money than working. It gave more people more control over their lives. Surely this is a good thing.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:32:12 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

And as Meatcleaver mentioned (and so did i in my earlier post) the experience of this happening in the UK was that there was virtually no impact on the rate of business failure. All that happened was that a large number of working poor got out of the poverty trap, the idea that welfare makes more money than working. It gave more people more control over their lives. Surely this is a good thing.


You just helped me remember, everybody pays for poverty and gains nothing in return, it is not that increasing the minimum wage actually increases the costs on society, it just empowers people, something conservatives are always preaching about but somehow forget if something smacks a little too much like wealth redistribution, which this isn't. It is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/4/2008 12:33:08 PM >

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:34:43 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		A 26% increase is a small rise? That is what it would ammount to here in Michigan

My state just raised the min wage to match inflation in the state, yeah just this and last year. We are currently at $7.50 an hour.  This is a local and state issue, not a Federal one, perhaps that is where the point is being missed.

As the local and state governments are in a much better place to judge what their individual economies can bear, and what is in line with the costs of living.

To use your example, what would the response be to the EU declaring that the min wage was going to be raised to 17 Euros for all member states.  While it may not effect some countries, it certainly would have an affect on some of the smaller economies.

I know apples and oranges, but it is the closest comparison to our 50 seperate governments and one umbrella government.



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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:38:05 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

We are currently at $7.50 an hour. 



Who deserves to be paid so badly for a job (any job)? Someone who's in jail?

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:41:19 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

We are currently at $7.50 an hour. 



Who deserves to be paid so badly for a job (any job)? Someone who's in jail?


Why not make the min wage $20 an hour?  Everybody deserves to make at least that much, no?

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:45:14 PM   
Lynnxz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

We are currently at $7.50 an hour. 



Who deserves to be paid so badly for a job (any job)? Someone who's in jail?


I think the min wage is going up to $9 something around here- at least in another year or so. Does it need to be higher? ... I don't think so really. If you're not going to go to school, not going to make an effort to *try* and do better for yourself... why should that be rewarded?

And before I get hit with the "But some people have kids to feed!!" ....Don't have kids before you can afford them.


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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:46:32 PM   
xXLithiumXx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

I think thats what happened when I said the thing about the middle east. Lol. It must be an epidemic I have started.



I think it's more that it's contagious  .


Agreed.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:52:07 PM   
xXLithiumXx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

OK, for the record, I am both PRO-obama (in a vacuum) and, in general, rabidly against the republican party (in general).   That being said, I find the following statements both unfair and uncalled for...

quote:

ORIGINAL:  xxLithiumxx
Like I said in the post before this one, McCain has a some what shady history. As a woman, I wouldnt trust a man who uses his record shamlessly to win a seat in office, which he has tried to do in this election. (I have seen several ads about wouldnt you like to have a veteran on your side, or some such drizzle) Nor, would I trust a man who met one wife while still with a wife. It seems to me from that stand point that he doesnt know what he wants. NOR, would I trust a man who is known for his temper, and his love of war


Insofar as him using his record to win a seat, what else WOULD you have him use?  As far as I am concerned, McCain's record in the armed forces is commendable and a valid part of who he is and perfectly appropriate to bring up in an election discussion.  Insofar as his wife situation, that's none of my business, mostly because these things are almost always too tangled to understand from the outside.  I didn't like it when the republican's brought similar issues up with Clinton and I like it even less with the McCain situation.  I cannot comment on his temper adequately, but I somehow sincerely doubt that anyone with his history "loves war".

Just because I dislike the man's personal political views and those of his party doesn't mean he ought to be demonized.



Saying that you have been in the military is quite different than using your military record as a basis for an election. If you google McCain Biography, which is what I did with both of these guys...youll be able to read, Im thinking its the first link that comes up and it will tell you what I have said.
 McCain is a scandal, a scam and an accident with a BIG boom waiting to happen.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 12:52:16 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		As you all know i am not an economist, so complex academic reports on the subject go way over my head. However, in the interests of fairness i did a little googling and came up with this....
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm
.....i'm not sure what side of the argument this report supports, but it does seem to be authoritive.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:16:56 PM   
xXLithiumXx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

We are currently at $7.50 an hour. 



Who deserves to be paid so badly for a job (any job)? Someone who's in jail?



I worked in a nursing home in Western Kentucky, and I made 5.50$ an hour. 7.50$  would have been a HUGE bonus to me.

You probably think I was a cleaning lady or something right? No. I was a Nurses Aide...taking care of grandma and grandpa...Not just changing bed pans or things of that nature....I was cleaning wounds, doing cath care, and rehabilitation. 

Was it 10 years ago? No, it was earlier this year.

The cost of living there? I paid 250$ a month for a 3 bedroom trailer, because thats all west ky is is one big trailer park, and I paid 400$ a month in electric, and about 90$ a month in water.

Hows that for a cost of living balance?

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:17:55 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		General reply - My point is this: people are finding it hard to make ends meet on what's considered 'decent' salaries. It must be pretty damned difficult on a salary of 6 or 7 or even 8 bucks an hour.

Someone may be poorly educated: they should still be able to earn enough money to pay their bills, have decent healthcare, and be able to care for their children (it's not the kids' fault after all), should they be unfortunate enough to have any  , without putting themselves into disgusting levels of debt just because a company is making lard off their backs. Fair wage for a fair amount of work. Each time people argue that a minimum wage will destroy industry, it doesn't happen. It's like the boy who cried 'Woolf!'.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 1:24:09 PM   
xXLithiumXx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

General reply - My point is this: people are finding it hard to make ends meet on what's considered 'decent' salaries. It must be pretty damned difficult on a salary of 6 or 7 or even 8 bucks an hour.

Someone may be poorly educated: they should still be able to earn enough money to pay their bills, have decent healthcare, and be able to care for their children (it's not the kids' fault after all), should they be unfortunate enough to have any  , without putting themselves into disgusting levels of debt just because a company is making lard off their backs. Fair wage for a fair amount of work. Each time people argue that a minimum wage will destroy industry, it doesn't happen. It's like the boy who cried 'Woolf!'.



Im not sure what economic idea it was, but the base idea was that if you did MORE work you were paid more, if you did less work you were paid less. Meaning people who were in an office made less. People who worked in factories and the like made more. Seems logical...but for some reason didnt work.

People who dont "try" to do better....agreed, there are some. But the ones that do, and cant...be it because of geography, education, what have you....what about them....shoot em all and let God sort em? Or tell em to go fuck themselves just on principal because some dont think they are trying hard enuff.

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RE: Why Obama cannot win in 2008 - 9/4/2008 2:05:07 PM   
slotlover


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Status: offline 		The minimum wage unfortunately is one of those very popular but incredibly stupid ideas that most people will never understand because they have never learned the basics of economic principles.  Just think it through:  If mandating a minimum wage for *any* labor is a good thing, why stop at $7.50 or even $20 an hour?  Why not mandate $100 an hour?  What effects would that have?

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