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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 8:48:34 PM   
Racquelle


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We are to admire Gov. Palin and her husband, and Bristol and Levi, for their choices, correct?  To speak of their good moral fiber and character for making those choices?  But, if the alternatives are made illegal, then what good morals are involved?  It is Palin's Party's Politics that tells us these are choices others should make for us - not private matters that should be decided by the parties most involved and affected.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 8:53:10 PM   
Thadius


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I am staying out of the abortion discussion.  I am not even making judgements on moral character, what I am suggesting is that none of us know enough about what happens in their home.  Which means that speculation about her being a terrible mother to her children is nothing more than speculation and opinion.  It is as simple as that.

Just like I don't know what goes on behind the closed doors of the Obama home, and I am not going to speculate.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 8:58:22 PM   
Racquelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius  I wasn't going to jump into this thread as a man...
  Men are every bit as involved in reproductive choice as women.  That it is easier for a man to walk away doesn't change that.  I encourage men to be involved in the topic.  As long as we all continue to says "its a womens' issue", we continue to perpetuate a mindset that is harmful to the well being of our society.

And, I am with you in that I do not have any inside knowledge on Gov. Palin's home and family, and while I disagree with her on many issues, I am not about to call her a "bad woman" or a "bad person". 

When I speak of the references to her character, I am only speaking abstractly of a sentiment I have heard echoed - that we are to applaud her character because of the choices she has made.  My point is IF we are, then isn't that more of an argument FOR choice than an argument against choice?


< Message edited by Racquelle -- 9/9/2008 9:02:46 PM >

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:03:38 PM   
Thadius


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I have made my postion known, I feel that we need to get away from the extreme positions and find common ground from both sides.  Like banning 3rd term abortions (except in the case of a medical need).  The only place I have in this discussion is if I am involved in the conception, or if a family member or friend comes to me for advice. Simply put, I am not going to make the choice for women that I don't know, and yes I am pro life.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:06:29 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I have made my postion known, I feel that we need to get away from the extreme positions and find common ground from both sides.  Like banning 3rd term abortions (except in the case of a medical need).  The only place I have in this discussion is if I am involved in the conception, or if a family member or friend comes to me for advice. Simply put, I am not going to make the choice for women that I don't know, and yes I am pro life.


I'm pleased to see you post here. Might your last sentence be a bit oxymoronic? In other words, the intent behind choice in the issue is to not make the choice for women.


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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:14:03 PM   
Thadius


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I will not make the choice for a woman I don't have control over.  Even though the practice is something I do not agree with.  This battle is not mine.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:43:01 PM   
Racquelle


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Less than 1% of abortions occur after the 20th week of gestation.  To me, debating third-trimester abortions is kind of like debating whether ducks should be allowed to drive drunk.  It is a red herring that the anti-choice movement plants in the discussion so that we all get up at arms about something that seems pretty horrible to even the most callous person.  It is something that is already exceedingly rare, and even more rarely is one performed for elective reasons.  (Yet, denying or delaying access to safer, earlier procedures is cited as a factor in increasing the likelyhood of an elective late term procedure.) 

There is a similar fallacy in the use of the term "partial-birth abortion".  Excerpted from an NPR report "Where does the term "partial-birth" abortion come from?  The term was first coined by the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) in 1995"  It is not a medical term.  It is a political term.

I have heard reference to "the abortion industry" in a similar vein.  The "industry" is the medical community, and medical care providers perform procedures and engage in practices many of us would find distasteful if they were painted this way too.  I hardly think of surgeons as being in the "amputation industry".  No one wants to have to have an amputation, and no medical care provider wants to have to perform them, but they are necessary for many reasons, including willfully neglecting one's health and well-being.  (Kind of the way not using birth control might be seen.)

While most people who would call themselves pro-life are almost entirely opposed to abortion with a few notable exceptions, almost no one is universally pro-abortion.  What MOST Americans are is pragmatists, who may recall a time when safe abortions could always be had for enough money, who may recognize that abstinence is not practiced religiously by people who lack the desire or ability to love and care for a child, who may recognize that normal, average people are sometimes faced with an unfortunate situation, who may recognize that people are not always in control of their own sexuality, who may feel the hubris in suggesting that WE know what is the right or good or best choice for people we don't know...who may think and feel many things about actual abortions, but believe they should be safe, legal and accessible in some form.  As a vehemently pro-choice person, I also believe it would be unlikely I could choose to have an abortion even if it WAS the best choice under the circumstance, so I have been incredibly diligent in practicing selective abstinence and effective contraception.  Though you can find extremists who actually advocate abortion, like latent Eugenecists, Nazis, and others...they certainly do not represent the average pro-choice advocate, or the average American.  But the extreme pro-life groups don't either - they just want you to think they do.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:50:44 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Woolf kebabs - I see Palin has helped popularise shooting at woolves from helicopters. But back to the issue at hand... Ding dong.


I heard they were offering culling licenses for those pesky Liberals in Alaska next year.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:52:00 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Woolf kebabs - I see Palin has helped popularise shooting at woolves from helicopters. But back to the issue at hand... Ding dong.


I heard they were offering culling licenses for those pesky Liberals in Alaska next year.


See now that might actually be worth a vacation... any word on what the out of state license is going to cost?

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 9:59:44 PM   
subtee


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Baby it's expensive...there are only 3...

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:05:40 PM   
Thadius


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Hell, I know there are more than that... I saw pictures and read about em. 

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:07:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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        Y'know, I'm about as pro-choice as they come, to the 'left' of Obama if he was to be believed at Saddleback, but as far as making it the absolute litmust test of a candidate, Oh HELL no!  It's a non-issue.  It's Democrat fear-mongering at it's worst (and telling seniors the Repubs are going to take away their social security check isn't easy to top).

      If, and it's a mighty big "IF" the religious right gained enough power to significantly threaten the legality of it, we would get a grassroots driven amendment in record time.  I have had to pause a moment before voting for Republicans a couple times, but the pro-life talking points never had a thing to do with it.


       This is a simple matter of sovereignty over one's body.  I could believe that the miracle of life starts the moment sperm fertilizes egg, and I would still support abortion right up to the point where we can simply adopt out a preemie.   One value must take precedence, and I have made my choice. 

      

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:07:48 PM   
subrob1967


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I'd say about 20% of the population:)

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:08:45 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Hell, I know there are more than that... I saw pictures and read about em. 


Nope. It's like the sasquatch or Nellie. Rumors and doctored pics.


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Don't believe everything you think...

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:11:34 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       Y'know, I'm about as pro-choice as they come, to the 'left' of Obama if he was to be believed at Saddleback, but as far as making it the absolute litmust test of a candidate, Oh HELL no!  It's a non-issue.  It's Democrat fear-mongering at it's worst (and telling seniors the Repubs are going to take away their social security check isn't easy to top).

     If, and it's a mighty big "IF" the religious right gained enough power to significantly threaten the legality of it, we would get a grassroots driven amendment in record time.  I have had to pause a moment before voting for Republicans a couple times, but the pro-life talking points never had a thing to do with it.


      This is a simple matter of sovereignty over one's body.  I could believe that the miracle of life starts the moment sperm fertilizes egg, and I would still support abortion right up to the point where we can simply adopt out a preemie.   One value must take precedence, and I have made my choice. 

     


Nobody suggested it was the litmus test, absolute or otherwise. Palin's position is extremist, though, no? And I really don't see democrats fearmongering it anywhere, do you?


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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:39:40 PM   
corysub


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Abortion is an important issue but based upon the women I know it's not the deal breaker Planned Parenthood would like it to be.  As has been said on this thread, most people  would not deny a woman's right to choose. While I am  not in favor of abortion being used as "birth control", there are young woman in my family and I understand the many valid reasons why a woman would make that tough choice.  These women were finding it hard to vote for McCain (despite my pressure-lol) but changed in one night after hearing Governor Palin speak, seeing that woman on the ticket,  hearing what she has done, her positive and optimistic attitude and obvious love for her country.  The negatives they felt against McCain melted totally.

There are many reasons why we vote for a person to be our President. The most important, in my opinion, is the survival of our country, our culture, our freedom.  I don't believe we should entrust a man who has accomplished nothing in his life other than the advancement of his own career, a man that after 18 months of campaigning still is an enigma to most Americans.   I never heard of Sarah Palin before her nomination.  After just a week, I feel that I know her, she is a strong woman who will not fade under pressure, and I can understand where she is coming from. As any other voter going into that booth in November, I can base my opinion versus voting for Palin vs Obama on that personal view.  With respect to the topic of this thread, abortion is not the dividing issue or deal breaker in this election.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Woolf kebabs - I see Palin has helped popularise shooting at woolves from helicopters. But back to the issue at hand... Ding dong.


I heard they were offering culling licenses for those pesky Liberals in Alaska next year.


Only partially correct!  They are also offering "bounties" for liberals out of the State's budget surplus.

< Message edited by corysub -- 9/9/2008 10:41:07 PM >

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 10:52:26 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

These women were finding it hard to vote for McCain (despite my pressure-lol) but changed in one night after hearing Governor Palin speak, seeing that woman on the ticket,  hearing what she has done, her positive and optimistic attitude and obvious love for her country.  The negatives they felt against McCain melted totally.


Do you have any idea what you're talking about? BAD sub! Palin is rabidly anti-choice, pro life, however you want to label it. Any women who were equivocating about McCain's position would not feel comforted by Palin's.

Bad sub.


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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 11:12:33 PM   
angelique510


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Greetings,
 
Contraception is not abortion. (Except for IUDs and the morning after pill - which do not prevent conception, but cause early miscarriage) But the easy availability of them to young and unmarried girls does give carte blanche to promiscuity, which leads to more abortions of convenience. And the ease of abortion causes even more promiscuity, because it relieves women of the consequences of their actions (except for STDs, but that's another topic.)
 
I am thrilled and amazed to see a female politician who is pro-life. This will be the first time in my life that I vote for a woman. Though I do believe that because she chose to marry, taking care of her husband and family should be her primary vocation - voting for her is much less distasteful to me than voting for her socialist opponent.
 
Winston Churchill said, "The measure of a civilization is how they treat their weakest members." I cannot think of a weaker member than the not yet born children. What does that say about our civilization?
 
Hey Thadius, I'll go with you to cull the liberals. But I say we start in Massachusettes, California, or even D.C. They're coming out of the woodwork like cockraoches there. :)
 
Be well,
~A

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 11:13:10 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Nobody suggested it was the litmus test, absolute or otherwise




        Go back and read the first sentence of the OP, Tee.  Read the rest of the replies, at least before the drift into discussing safe ways to hunt predators.  That's exactly what some want it to be.

    

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/9/2008 11:19:53 PM   
subtee


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You're smarter than this. Abortion isn't on the radar in this campaign. It's about "change." No matter how extreme anyone's views are, it won't be a factor of change in this campaign.

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Don't believe everything you think...

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