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RE: The Dividing Issue-Palin's view Abortion - 9/10/2008 7:53:15 AM   
Mercnbeth


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I'm neutral on the issue and if pressed I'd say that a woman making that difficult decision should be granted the freedom to do so. The same freedom should hold for medical practitioners. The problem is that people feel democratic rule is fair and just. However there are some things, like abortion, that have too many variables to consider applying a democratic majority rule. Morality should be a factor equal to pragmatism; but its treated as an absolute by both sides of the issue. There is no 'human' morality. Morality is set by social and other factors. How a man can speak in absolutes on the subject and set rules is beyond my comprehension.

But that doesn't stop this many from pointing out some very hypocritical situations arising from this debate. For example, those that say a fetus isn't 'human' until it's born would give the mother the 'right' to kill the fetus up until its birthday. However, the day after - that same biological unit better be in a Government approved car seat or the mother doesn't have the right to take it home from the hospital.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 8:22:51 AM   
MissSCD


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You are the one with all the God quotes in your profile which are wong I may add.  Maybe you need to rethink your position on your profile.
 
Ha.
 
SCD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostkitten2

There is a direct correlation between abortion and increased risk of breast cancer, is that a punishment by god or simply the body not knowing what to do with developed mammary glands when no one nurses them and all the hormones suddenly drop? It doesn't happen with miscarriages.



A common enough mistake, but a complete falsehood.

"Most of the information on whether induced abortion modifies the risk of breast cancer among women comes from epidemiological studies, which are either case-control studies, or historical cohort studies. For information on abortion, all published case-control studies have relied on interviews of cases and controls with the inherent problem of recall bias. This bias occurs because women with breast cancer (cases) tend to truthfully report induced abortion while controls, who often are healthy women, have no "incentive" to provide information about personal and sensitive matters such as induced abortion. Such bias can produce elevated relative risk estimates in case-control studies. As a result, the outcome of such studies has been inconsistent, with some having indicated a small increase in risk, while others have not.
Historical cohort studies, on the other hand, are more methodologically sound. Two major studies have been carried out using this methodology, and neither found an increased risk of breast cancer associated with first trimester abortion."

World Health Organisation factsheets

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 8:46:07 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

So yeah, to some people it is a belief system.



Yeah, some people become serial killers, so yeah, exceptions do not make rules. Yeah?

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 8:51:12 AM   
kittinSol


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Which God quotes? I'm an agnostic Jew who will fiercely defend the right to choose - I'm a woman, and I've had an abortion. I've had a child, too. I've made those choices. I, too, know what I'm talking about, so you might want to reconsider your interpretation of what I say and write because it is way, but way, off the mark.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 9/10/2008 8:53:46 AM >


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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 9:42:25 AM   
bipolarber


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I don't know if anyone else answered the early, page one question, about if Palin considered birth control abortion:

I'm not sure. But, she has stated that she is against the use of contraception, and is against any and all sex education, with the exception of  abstinence only "education."

So, with Palin:
No abortion, even if you are raped, or in cases of incest.
No contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy, or to control the spread of STD's
No sexual education in schools.

...and we wonder how her daughter got knocked up?

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 9:45:54 AM   
kittinSol


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They're all off their rocker.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 10:22:14 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

I don't know if anyone else answered the early, page one question, about if Palin considered birth control abortion:

I'm not sure. But, she has stated that she is against the use of contraception, and is against any and all sex education, with the exception of  abstinence only "education."

So, with Palin:
No abortion, even if you are raped, or in cases of incest.
No contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy, or to control the spread of STD's
No sexual education in schools.

...and we wonder how her daughter got knocked up?


Please provide a link or source showing that she is against contraceptives and any and all sex education. 

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 12:07:25 PM   
Aynne88


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http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Palin_opposed_sexed.html     Here is part of  that Thadius, re: sex ed.

edited to add, yes semantics, she says here "explicit" sex ed. Spin Sarah Spin.....

< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 9/10/2008 12:08:13 PM >


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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 12:18:23 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Palin_opposed_sexed.html     Here is part of  that Thadius, re: sex ed.

edited to add, yes semantics, she says here "explicit" sex ed. Spin Sarah Spin.....


I already posted that questionaire. 

quote:

Q: Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?

SP: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.


If this is the best folks have got for that claim, then I suggest they look at the nuances that are overlooked in another candidates positions.  Let's just clear this question up a bit.  As there seems to be an overload of folks wanting to distort facts.


quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/52144.html

But asked about Palin's views on sex education last week, Maria Comella, her spokeswoman in the vice-presidential campaign, said Palin "supports sex education in terms of teaching of contraceptives and everything." She doesn't support "abstinence-only" education, Comella said.
At any rate, the state has no standards or even a suggested curriculum for sex education, and Palin hasn't tried to change that, said Eric Fry, spokesman for the state Department of Education. Sex ed is up to local school districts. Anchorage teachers stress abstinence, but also talk about birth control.
Also during the 2006 campaign, Palin said she was pro-contraception but didn't specify what kind or what she thought about teens using birth control.


Hope that helps just a little bit.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 1:43:13 PM   
bipolarber


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Hummm... does "pulling out" or the "rhythum method" really count as contraception?

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 2:02:59 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Hummm... does "pulling out" or the "rhythum method" really count as contraception?



Still no proof to back up your claims?  Not surprising.  Don't worry I am sure one of the 30 Dem shock troops (lawyers and investigators) will pull something up as they invade Alaska.  I will wait to see something factual, before casting judgement.

Just returning the rhetoric,
Thadius

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 2:22:44 PM   
bipolarber


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The "Dem shock troops"... aka journalists who are part of a free press in America?

(Oh, and Aynne, thanks for providing the link that Thad willfully ignored. Not the same site I was reading earlier, but much the same info.)

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 2:28:28 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNew

I agree with Bill Clinton:  I want abortions to be legal, safe, and rare.

The ironic thing, of course, is that Bush is the greatest anti-abortion president in history and the rates of abortions have risen dramatically since he was elected.


Yes and some liberals swore up and down he would stop them all if he was elected. Guess they were wrong, huh?


Considering that is not a decision he had power over, the answer is no.  He did do everything within his power to promote that cause though.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 2:44:05 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Racquelle

Men are every bit as involved in reproductive choice as women.  That it is easier for a man to walk away doesn't change that.  I encourage men to be involved in the topic.  As long as we all continue to says "its a womens' issue", we continue to perpetuate a mindset that is harmful to the well being of our society. 



So then, by your comments, I take it you would support legislation that gives the father, regardless of whether they are married, a legal voice in the decision of an abortion.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 3:13:24 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub



There are many reasons why we vote for a person to be our President. The most important, in my opinion, is the survival of our country, our culture, our freedom.  I don't believe we should entrust a man who has accomplished nothing in his life other than the advancement of his own career, a man that after 18 months of campaigning still is an enigma to most Americans.   I never heard of Sarah Palin before her nomination.  After just a week, I feel that I know her, she is a strong woman who will not fade under pressure, and I can understand where she is coming from. As any other voter going into that booth in November, I can base my opinion versus voting for Palin vs Obama on that personal view. 




After just a week huh? 

Good to see someone who bases their vote on on gut feelings rather than bother with all that silly stuff about taxes, wars, the economy.

That stuff just gives me a headache!  

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 4:34:25 PM   
ThatDaveGuy69


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Wow! Quite a thread going on here!
Just a few points and I'll crawl back under my rock.

I think it's just as important to know the VP candidate as it is to know the presidential candidate.  It's often tossed around that at McCain's age he won't survive a full term.  If there's even one iota of truth to that then we better know everything there is to know about Sarah Palin.  Same goes for the Democtratic contenders. 

Will a McCain/Palin white house mean an end to legal abortions? Of course not!  But what it will do is the same thing that Reagan, Bush Sr, and Bush Jr. have done throughout their presidencies: encourage/aid/abet the religious right to press harder and harder at the local level to make it more and more difficult for a woman to make that very difficult decision.  That's the real fear of having another round of Republicans in the white house, at least on the abortion issue.

Palin has shown by her support of abstinance "education" that she is completely clueless when it comes to the real world of men and women.  Abstinance didn't prevent her daughter from becoming pregnant. BTW: What is the age of consent in Alaska?  And her "fiance" is just as much to blame.  Last time I checked you could buy condoms at just about any drug store or gas station men's room.  Abstinance is about as usefull as "Just Say No" was in the 80's.

Random thought: pols always mention "except in the case of rape or incest". Please tell me when incest is not rape?  And please, no jokes about southern states.  That's just too easy.

A couple other fun Palin points:
She was all gung-ho for the "bridge to no-where" when she was the mayor of that little town.  She did a quick 180 when it became a scandal.  But here's a minor detail the media isn't bothering to mention: as governor, she did not even try to give back the $325 million.

As governor, she lead the push to legalize the hunting of wolfes from aircraft.  For "sport".  Not in the case of having too many wolves or if a wolf roamed into a populated area.  Simply for the fun of it - as if there were such a thing.

As for Obama, I doubt he's half the miracle-man his most fervent supporters want him to be.  But come on!  Do we really want another administration virtually idntical to the current one?  OK, so merely "not being the same" isn't nearly enough to run on.  And yes, he's got a lot to answer for: too many missed votes in the Senate, Tony Reszko, lack of experienc, etc.   I'd rather have a sincere, well-educated person at the helm who is NOT just another Washington insider than another hack, career politician.

The last time we had such a clear choice we got a barly-educated, hack, business failure.  Can anyone here really say they are happy with GWB and wish he could serve another 4yrs?

My favorite bit of Repub retohric is when they say they are the party of change.  Uhm... change from what?  From the last 8 years of a Republican administration?  Can't they do any better than to mimic the Democrats?

And I really love when McCain insists that Obama will raise taxes.  Just exactly who does he think is going to pay for the obscene deficit Bush has racked-up?  A trillion is a pretty tough number for most people to wrap their head around.  The US national debt is around $9,694,382,524,910.  That's about 9.7 trillion, or roughly $32,000 for every man, woman, AND child in the US.  And that number goes up by almost $2 billion a day.  We are truly borrowing from China and India to pay for Middle East oil.  Let's not BS ourselves: taxes will increase no matter who gets elected.

The only point I've heard McCain make that I've agreed with is his plan to build as many as 45 nuclear power plants.  We need to stop burning coal to make electricity, plain and simple.  I would take his proposal a step further: I would commission the Navy to design a standard model nuke plant.  France adopted a stadard model decades ago.  A plant operator can go to any plant in France and step right into the job with minimal re-training.  In the US, no 2 plants are anything alike.  And why the Navy? Because the have the absolute best record of nuclear safety in the world.

Ya know, I've never met anyone who claimed he or she was "pro-abortion" just as I've never met anyone who is "anti-life".  For me - a man - it comes down to a matter of choice at the single-most private of levels.  I'm pretty sure it's not anyone elses' business if a woman decides to terminate her pregnancy.  And all this "parental consent" crap just clouds the issue.  Sure, we all wish that every pregnant teen could have an open discussion with her parents.  And I really hope that most can.  But what about those few who can't?  Would you send them home with a court order to an abusive parent?


Oops, seems I've rambled on a lot more than I had planned.  Seems to happen a lot around here :D

Peace, love, and flying cars in my lifetime!

~Dave

Shields up - flame away!

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 4:48:46 PM   
Bethnai


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Which God quotes? I'm an agnostic Jew who will fiercely defend the right to choose - I'm a woman, and I've had an abortion. I've had a child, too. I've made those choices. I, too, know what I'm talking about, so you might want to reconsider your interpretation of what I say and write because it is way, but way, off the mark.



I'm waiting.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 5:46:26 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

The "Dem shock troops"... aka journalists who are part of a free press in America?

(Oh, and Aynne, thanks for providing the link that Thad willfully ignored. Not the same site I was reading earlier, but much the same info.)


Here's how it was described in the Wall Street Journal:
quote:



It's no surprise, then, that Democrats have airdropped a mini-army of 30 lawyers, investigators and opposition researchers into Anchorage, the state capital Juneau and Mrs. Palin's hometown of Wasilla to dig into her record and background.
...
The main area of interest to the Democratic SWAT team is Mrs. Palin's dismissal in July of her public safety commissioner.
...
Mrs. Palin will return to Alaska for the first time in nearly two weeks on Wednesday night, when she is scheduled to arrive in Fairbanks. Local Republicans will hold a "Welcome Home" rally for her. You can bet some of the Democratic opposition research contingent will be in the audience taking notes. They'll be the ones arriving in rental cars and wearing fancy dress shoes from back east.


As to the blog piece that Aynne linked to... I already posted the original questionaire last week.  Nobody knows what site you were reading earlier, as you don't feel a need to link to your accusations, you just post your opinions as fact, aka rhetoric.  I posted a direct contradiction to your opinion, and the best you have as a counter is that I "willfully ignored" the information?  I will hold off on presenting anything else on the subject so that you can watch Olbermann and Maddow to get some more talking points with no facts to back them up.



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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 6:29:59 PM   
Racquelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife  So then, by your comments, I take it you would support legislation that gives the father, regardless of whether they are married, a legal voice in the decision of an abortion.
That's a fair question, and ultimately, I would still say no.  Both parties had many choices as to prevention of conception up until it occurred, but in the end, he cannot be forced to carry a pregnancy to term himself and he can't be forced to terminate his own pregnancy, so this itself is not something he can or should decide for the woman, no more than the government, parents, The Church or any other entity should.  Yes, in my life, I have known of men who were disturbed by a partner's choice to terminate a pregnancy and that is terrible for them.  They are far outnumbered by the men I know who had no concern for preventing conception or raising or supporting a child.  I can conceive of supporting economic relief for men who could show they used significant measures to prevent pregnancy while their partners were willfully negligent or dishonest and then bore a child.

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RE: The Deviding Issue-Palin's veiw Abortion - 9/10/2008 8:04:52 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
Obama is unproven and very risky in these difficult times. 



So is McCain.
Yes indeed.

"John McSame: A Dangerous Man for Dangerous Times!" Hahahahaha

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