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RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 1:58:09 AM   
MsSaskia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

I suppose the short version is that you should go to a pro domme if you want to experience submission on your own terms - and a lifestyle domme if you're ready to experience submission on someone else's.


That implies that non-professional relationships don't involve negotiations that allow for the submissive partner's interests to be met and that it's all about the dominant's.  It also implies that professionals only do what a "submissive" wants.  Both are faulty assumptions. 

(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 2:02:55 AM   
MsSaskia


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From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
*shrug*  I dunno, I guess posts like this just get me thinking sometimes--what's so great about going pro for the pro?


I love playing a lot with a lot of different types of people.  What I don't love is the admin part:  all the marketing and all the screening.  The no-fun-at-all part is the game players who ... nevermind.   I love playing.  Running a dungeon as a business is not play in itself, but it enables me to play and explore more than I would if I had to work a straight job 40+ hours a week.  

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 2:08:17 AM   
MsSaskia


Posts: 415
Joined: 9/9/2004
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

I suppose the short version is that you should go to a pro domme if you want to experience submission on your own terms - and a lifestyle domme if you're ready to experience submission on someone else's.


Yes, but experiencing submission only on one's own terms doesn't exactly qualify as submission.


Well, perhaps a kind of simulated submission. I suppose that if I were to go to a pro domme I would think of it as paying an expert to show me approximately what submission to certain activities would be like, as opposed to actually submitting.



I've had some pretty spectacularly shallow encounters in my non-professional relationships with people who identified as submissive but were masochistic control freaks.  One of the things about being lifestyle and pro is that I can compare and contrast pro vs lifestyle scenes.  I've seen and deeply enjoyed some genuinely submissive clients that've been regulars for years and I've done non-professional scenes with (or dated) people who turned out to not walk their talk one single bit. 

There's a range and breadth and depth of experience possible in any relationship, professional or otherwise.   Twue BDSM can happen anywhere, anytime, with anyone.   Nobody has the market cornered on versimilitude of experience here.

(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 4:53:28 AM   
Dnomyar


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versimilitude????  OK MsSaskia. What does that mean. My new word for today.

(in reply to MsSaskia)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 5:13:21 AM   
MistressAthenaX


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I'm a pro Domme and wanted to address some comments the idea that submissives who see a pro Domme get to submit on their own terms.  Obviously this depends on the pro, but I personally DETEST scripted sessions or sessions in which a "sub" wants to give Me lots of instructions, then be called submissive.  And because I DETEST these scenarios, I generally don't do them.  Of course, it is important for the sub to get to experience things that they enjoy.  Prior to a session, I like to talk to the sub and learn about the things that they enjoy, are curious about, don't enjoy, etc.  Then, I craft a session that incorporates their likes as well as My own.  This is the same thing that I do with My personal subs (although, for obvious reasons, the personal subs get to do more chores!). 

I will do fetish sessions or masochistic sessions, but these are different than submission sessions...

(in reply to Dnomyar)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 9:56:09 AM   
Coupleofwhats


Posts: 280
Joined: 6/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Innaresting post, if perhaps a teensy bit hostile.  But honestly, I find myself perversely amused by the idea of an analogous list of Reasons to Go Pro for the women who provide the service--not just the men who shell out for the service.   I have a much clearer idea of why professional domination is good for the customer than why it is good for the women who enter the profession.

A lot of my friends who have tried professional domination have said that it was a pretty toxic experience...in some cases, they've even said that it contaminated a lot of the joy of BDSM for them, and made it impossible to enjoy activities they once might have found pleasurable, etc...it often leads to "taking a break" or "leaving the lifestyle" for extended periods, etc.

*shrug*  I dunno, I guess posts like this just get me thinking sometimes--what's so great about going pro for the pro?




Doing anything in the adult industry can be incredibly toxic if you allow it to be. When other people booked my sessions, I played with a lot of jerks and it sort of made me not want to play anymore at all.

I find that the sex industry works best when you're your own boss. I decide what I will do and what I won't: who I will see and who I will not. I set my own rates and hours. When I want to go on vacation, I don't have to ask anyone's permission. I get to travel for work. Part of my job is shopping for toys and outfits. Sometimes I get gear and clothing for free. Part of my job is also going to workshops and meeting awesome people. When I work, I'm doing a scene in a cool studio space and/or eating at a nice restaurant while tormenting someone.

I get to do what I love and get paid for it.

Really... I have a harder time understanding why most people work 9-5 with a boss!

_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm6JgZ35w8w

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 11:32:12 AM   
MsSaskia


Posts: 415
Joined: 9/9/2004
From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

versimilitude????  OK MsSaskia. What does that mean. My new word for today.


Verisimilitude:  (I left out an i): 



1.
the appearance or semblance of truth; likelihood; probability: The play lacked verisimilitude.



2.
something, as an assertion, having merely the appearance of truth.

(in reply to Dnomyar)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 12:18:01 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia

I've had some pretty spectacularly shallow encounters in my non-professional relationships with people who identified as submissive but were masochistic control freaks.  One of the things about being lifestyle and pro is that I can compare and contrast pro vs lifestyle scenes.  I've seen and deeply enjoyed some genuinely submissive clients that've been regulars for years and I've done non-professional scenes with (or dated) people who turned out to not walk their talk one single bit. 

There's a range and breadth and depth of experience possible in any relationship, professional or otherwise.   Twue BDSM can happen anywhere, anytime, with anyone.   Nobody has the market cornered on versimilitude of experience here.


Let's see... we can probably agree that the masochistic control freaks should have been either paying a professional willing to cater to them, or getting what they needed from a service top with submissive tendencies. And the people who didn't walk their talk just needed lessons in honesty, or consistency, or something.

I find it a bit harder to understand the genuine submissives who paid you to dominate them. Do you have any idea why they chose to pay you instead of finding a non-professional dominant who suited them? If you found them deeply enjoyable, presumably it wasn't just a question of their not being able to attract one.

When I talked about professional interactions being simulated submission, I was thinking of the dominant's motivation. The idea of submitting to the will of a dominant implies that the dominant is motivated by a desire to do things to the submissive, or to have the submissive do things for her. But if the dominant's motivation is in fact purely financial, the client is actually getting a simulation of what it would be like to submit to someone with those desires. I'm sure that can still be a profound and highly erotic experience, when it's done well - I never meant to imply a lack of respect for either professionals or their clients. And I'm also sure that some professional dominants (including you, it sounds like) are motivated partly by money and partly by desire when they take a client, which blurs considerably the distinction I made in my first post. But then, it was just one quick line!








(in reply to MsSaskia)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 3:03:11 PM   
MsSaskia


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"Let's see... we can probably agree that the masochistic control freaks should have been either paying a professional willing to cater to them, or getting what they needed from a service top with submissive tendencies. And the people who didn't walk their talk just needed lessons in honesty, or consistency, or something."

I would not completely agree with that.  In my job, yes, I function as a service top.  I'm primarily a dominant, though (no switch or submissive tendencies whatsoever), and if a client is a fetishist or masochist more so than they are a submissive, we're not going to be very compatable, neither of us will have much fun, and we probably won't want to see each other again.  If I were going to fake my way through it for the sheer sake of following a buck, I'd earn more money.  I'm happy to play with masochists or fetishists as long as they are willing to accept my lead in a scene.  If they're trying to direct, I refer them to someone else and don't see them again.    As for personal/non-paying partners, they are no more or less self- or other-deluding than anyone else in the scene.  We've all got things to work on.   If I paid attention to red flags as much in my personal life as I do my professional, I'd save myself a lot of heartache.  I'm dumb like that.     Plus I have these other, teeny tiny hardly noticable areas of imperfection myself to work on.  Microscopic, really.  ::cough::   Anyway.  "Only connect", Forster said.   It's an oversimplification (which reminds me of Thoreau), but it's a pleasant one.

"When I talked about professional interactions being simulated submission, I was thinking of the dominant's motivation. The idea of submitting to the will of a dominant implies that the dominant is motivated by a desire to do things to the submissive, or to have the submissive do things for her. But if the dominant's motivation is in fact purely financial, the client is actually getting a simulation of what it would be like to submit to someone with those desires. I'm sure that can still be a profound and highly erotic experience, when it's done well - I never meant to imply a lack of respect for either professionals or their clients. And I'm also sure that some professional dominants (including you, it sounds like) are motivated partly by money and partly by desire when they take a client, which blurs considerably the distinction I made in my first post. But then, it was just one quick line!"

Some professional dominants are motivated entirely by income.  I see nothing wrong with that, any more so than anyone else doing a job they're competent at because it earns them a living.  It's nice when people can do only what they love and make a living at it and not have to work at things they feel neutral or negatively about, but it's a luxury few enjoy.  I'd be a lot richer if I wasn't motivated by more than just finances, and I do get a bit knee-jerky now and then about non-professionals assumptions about the motivation of pros, but we all have to make a living.  I don't know any pro dommes who stay in the biz for more than a year who don't genuinely enjoy the scene. 

I gave a new apprentice a paddling lesson last night.  A female I know from the non-pro leather scene volunteered to be a practice bottom for the novice dominant.  We went over breathing (again), body language, physical signs of stress and tension and pleasure to monitor, as well as what makes a paddle a paddle as opposed to a slapper or a crop or whatever.  We went over what materials paddles can be made out of and how the construction and materials inform the sensation that the bottom will feel.  We went over thuddy vs slappy vs stingy and how some paddles can have elements of all three, two of three or one of three.  Then we got to the applied theory part.

We worked on how to pick out lighter paddles to get started with, how to pace a spanking scene, how to monitor skin in case marks have to be avoided, how some instruments make no noise but leave deep marks, what types of materials will leave what types of marks, how to warm someone up in ways that'll mitigate marking, how to evenly distribute marks in the event marks are a Good Thing for all parties, and we covered all of that while we were using different paddles on the bottom.   We looked at body language during a spanking and how that changes from individuals.  We all joked about calibrating the instruments based on the type of squeaks the bottom was making and how she "talked" with her knees and feet. 

The apprentice, under my supervision, ramped the bottom up for a good hour or so, using all but my thuddiest paddles.  The bottom responded best to stingy first, then slappy, and not much thuddy, so we went with that.  She worked her up and worked her up and we watched and monitored and laughed and stroked skin and hugged and checked in to make sure everything was going OK for everybody.  When I thought it was nearly time to push the bottom to her limit and take her where I knew she needed to go, I suggested to the apprentice that she let the bottom pick out her two favorite instruments and then give her as much of them as she needed until it was clear the scene was done.   Just before they got started on that, I got down the singletail I bought just a year ago and gave the bottom a couple of casual strokes with it.  She responded really well to it; so much so, I didn't have the heart to stop.  I decided to just go with it and kept giving her more and more stripes and welts with the singletail for another 10-15 minutes.  I lost track of time, but I think that's about how long it was.  I increased the speed and intensity as much as my skill level allowed (not much, yet, since I've only been practicing with a singletail for a year) until I saw and heard her whole body release and a blast of energy sort of burst out from her.  I set the singletail aside and went to her and put my hands on her back where she was bent over the exam table.  I kept them there, stroking her back, and nodded to the apprentice to come over and do some laying on of hands as well.  The bottom's breathing was perfect, there was no tension left anywhere in her body, and the three of us stayed there for several minutes, enjoying the rush and the glow and the communion.  

I'd spent most of the lesson sitting back, only joining in here and there to demonstrate different ways to hold an instrument or places that are OK to hit with an instrument, but I still got a huge high from just the 20 minutes or so of using the singletail on her.  I loved that the apprentice saw some of the best of what we can expect out of a scene and that she "got" it.  I know she'll be able to recreate it herself, now that she's got a better understanding of ramping up and pacing.  But while I've been replaying the lesson in my head today, it's been coming back to me that the moment where the bottom got to where she needed to go and I was able to take her there is exactly what motivates me to stay in the scene despite any other hassles or drama or other annoyances.  I've had great scenes like that with clients and I've had them with casual partners and I've had them (more frequently) with partners I've had for a few years, and the rush and the feeling of connection in a good scene are the same regardless of whether money's involved or not.  That's my motivation.  

PS - I should mention that I did apologize to the apprentice for pre-empting her scene.  She'd done all that preparation of the bottom and had really earned the right to "finish her off", and I let her know that I didn't intend to take over like that, but didn't feel like backing off when I was getting that great response from the bottom with the singletail.   She said she understood why I stuck with it and said she wasn't offended, but I'm definitely going to have to work harder on taking a step back and not interfering so much in future lessons.  It's not nice to steal the big finale. 

(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 6:31:09 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
I gave a new apprentice a paddling lesson last night.


<applause>

I think that has the makings for a good seminar.

Incidentally, when I first read the sentence above, I thought the apprentice had somehow messed up and so you taught her a lesson ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MsSaskia)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 8:12:40 PM   
MsSaskia


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From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
I gave a new apprentice a paddling lesson last night.


<applause>

I think that has the makings for a good seminar.

Incidentally, when I first read the sentence above, I thought the apprentice had somehow messed up and so you taught her a lesson ;-)

Cheers,

Sea


Hee hee - I probably could've phrased that more clearly.   She's a cutie, but not all that switchy.   
A seminar on paddling?   I could do that, but I suspect a zillion of those have already been taught.   I think I like teaching flogging and caning mroe than paddling, but ropes and fire are pretty high up there too.  Then again, my absolute favorite to teach is Stretchy Kink (elastic materials) and Stapling. 

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 9:09:19 PM   
undergroundsea


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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
Then again, my absolute favorite to teach is Stretchy Kink (elastic materials) and Stapling. 


Ah, yes. I believe that is the one you did in LA last year. To put a face to a name, I was the one in the server outfit who did the seminar on understanding the psychology of service submission.

What stood out to me was the discussion about how to read the submissive. I am not sure how much emphasis is given to this information in impact play seminars; the focus in such seminars seems to be more on the implements.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MsSaskia)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 9:27:34 PM   
MsSaskia


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From: Denver
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
Then again, my absolute favorite to teach is Stretchy Kink (elastic materials) and Stapling. 


Ah, yes. I believe that is the one you did in LA last year. To put a face to a name, I was the one in the server outfit who did the seminar on understanding the psychology of service submission.

What stood out to me was the discussion about how to read the submissive. I am not sure how much emphasis is given to this information in impact play seminars; the focus in such seminars seems to be more on the implements.

Cheers,

Sea


I didn't attend DomCon last year, but I taught a class on Suturing, Stapling and Needles the year before.  I had magnetic beads sutured to the labia of one of the women with my group.  That was a fun class.

I put a lot of emphasis on how to read the bottom/submissive when I'm doing one-on-one lessons.  It ends up becoming objectification play for the submissive because they're being discussed so clinically.  So far, it's worked out pretty well.   For advanced classes, I think the assumption is that the players already have a pretty good idea about how to read a submissive, so that's probably why not much emphasis is placed on it.  For more beginner-level stuff, like spanking and flogging and paddling, reminders of things to pay attention to during a scene are absolutely essential.  It's too easy to get so caught up in the details of how to use tools that we forget some of the more important details, like how hot we look in our outfits. 

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 9:30:20 PM   
MsSaskia


Posts: 415
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From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
Then again, my absolute favorite to teach is Stretchy Kink (elastic materials) and Stapling. 


Ah, yes. I believe that is the one you did in LA last year. To put a face to a name, I was the one in the server outfit who did the seminar on understanding the psychology of service submission.

What stood out to me was the discussion about how to read the submissive. I am not sure how much emphasis is given to this information in impact play seminars; the focus in such seminars seems to be more on the implements.

Cheers,

Sea


PS - your seminar sounds really interesting.  I have a strong interest in service submissives, but don't understand them as well as I'd like to.

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 10:28:45 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
I didn't attend DomCon last year, but I taught a class on Suturing, Stapling and Needles the year before.  I had magnetic beads sutured to the labia of one of the women with my group.  That was a fun class.


I might be mixing up the years. It was a year when I had to return early to catch a conflicting event in Texas, which occurred each in 2006 and 2007. I was thinking it might have been April 2007. In any case, yes, my reference was to the stapling seminar. I was not at the seminar but it had come up in conversation with Mistress Venom since she was also in it.

Of the beginner-level seminars I have attended on impact play (I can remember at least three) there was little attention given to reading the submissive and the skin, especially with the detail you describe. I agree that it is an important skill to learn but I am not sure if it is being done enough in seminars. If I knew that a seminar was being done that was going to discuss how to read a submissive, I would be interested to attend it for sake of knowledge, and/or recommend it to tops and dominants.

That's my two cents as you contemplate what to teach at future events :)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MsSaskia)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 10:37:40 PM   
kinkbound


Posts: 387
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

I suppose the short version is that you should go to a pro domme if you want to experience submission on your own terms - and a lifestyle domme if you're ready to experience submission on someone else's.


Bullseye!  

(in reply to Wheldrake)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 10:44:29 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
PS - your seminar sounds really interesting.  I have a strong interest in service submissives, but don't understand them as well as I'd like to.


It has gone well. In spirit of the topic, the seminar is intended as a service primarily for the benefit of dominants ;-) I learned just this weekend that I will be giving it at DomCon Atlanta if you plan to attend. Otherwise, Thunder is on my wish-list of events ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to MsSaskia)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/15/2008 11:20:41 PM   
MsSaskia


Posts: 415
Joined: 9/9/2004
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSaskia
PS - your seminar sounds really interesting.  I have a strong interest in service submissives, but don't understand them as well as I'd like to.


It has gone well. In spirit of the topic, the seminar is intended as a service primarily for the benefit of dominants ;-) I learned just this weekend that I will be giving it at DomCon Atlanta if you plan to attend. Otherwise, Thunder is on my wish-list of events ;-)

Cheers,

Sea


I enjoyed presenting at DomCon and haven't been out to the one in ATL yet, but I can only afford a limited number of conferences a year.  I just got back from the Pony Play Championships up in Minnesota - SO much fun and such a beautiful property the ranch is on! - and got a new puppy (four legs good!) at a shelter on the way out there, so travel options are limited at the moment.  If more conferences paid presenters, it'd make travelling to them easier, but you have to have a book out or be otherwise very high-profile to get expenses like that comped, from what I understand.  Meh. 

Thunder is a great conference.  It's gotten big enough that I got way overstimmed this last time, but I kind of took some of that on myself, between volunteering, having houseguests, and doing a 4-way scene one night.  I like the slower, less frenetic pace of the Pony Play Championships. 

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/18/2008 6:00:59 PM   
MistressSassy66


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Thank You MsIncontrol for a great post.

I have to say the add ons are pretty great too

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to MsIncontrol)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Why you need to pay a pro-domme - 9/18/2008 9:35:37 PM   
LadySunn


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I absolutely LUV these answers!!!!




http://www.freewebs.com/raquelwhips/

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Profile   Post #: 60
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