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Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 7:39:22 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		More tension along the Pakistan border with US Forces -

"Diplomatic fury"
"It emerged last week that US President George W Bush has in recent months authorised military raids against militants inside Pakistan without prior approval from Islamabad.

The BBC's Barbara Plett in Islamabad says there is a growing American conviction that Pakistan is either unwilling or unable to eliminate militant sanctuaries in its border area.

There have been a number of missile attacks aimed at militants in Pakistan territory in recent weeks.

Pakistan reacted with diplomatic fury when US helicopters landed troops in South Waziristan on 3 September. It was the first ground assault by US troops in Pakistan.

Locals in the Musa Nikeh area said American soldiers attacked a target with gunfire and bombs, and said women and children were among some 20 civilians who died in the attack.

On Monday, the tribesmen say they grabbed their guns and took up defensive positions after placing their women and children out of harm's way.

Pakistan's army has warned that the aggressive US policy will widen the insurgency by uniting the tribesmen with the Taleban."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7618929.stm

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:19:27 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		.......it's this sort of thing that worries most on the world stage. The USA must recognise that other countries are sovereign nations too. Just because there is something the USA wants in another country does not give them the right to just go and take it.  They have to ask like anyone else and accept that sometimes the answer is no.

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:23:22 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		You voice my thoughts, philosophy.  This situation can go from a tense one to a major problem in a nanosecond.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:25:08 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

.......it's this sort of thing that worries most on the world stage. The USA must recognise that other countries are sovereign nations too. Just because there is something the USA wants in another country does not give them the right to just go and take it.  They have to ask like anyone else and accept that sometimes the answer is no.
Ahh but Pholosophy if I understand the Bush doctrine(and apparently I have a firmer grasp on the subject than a certin candidate for high office)there is no need for the USA to ask,we simply satisfy ourselves that it is in our own National interests and the rest of the world can like it or lump it...seems like this was a doctrine worked out in a schollyard does it not?

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:52:45 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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Status: offline 		When we have people staging cross-border attacks that kill Americans, than something needs to be done.  If the government of Pakistan can't or won't handle the situation, than I have no problem with us taking the matter into our own hands. 

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:55:34 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		All Pakistan has to do is hand over Bin Laden and al qeada and this can all be prevented.
I suppose we should have respected Germany's "sovereignty" and not gone after Hitler and the Nazis too.
Speaking of "sovereignty" when will Mexico be taking back the millions of their citizens who've snuck into our country illegally?

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:57:33 PM   
Bethnai


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Status: offline 		If the logic is that Pakistan is unable and/or unwilling to take care of it themselves, I wonder how this will work into the deal

Funds for F-16s to Pakistan is a tough sell’
WASHINGTON: The Bush administration expects an uphill battle in Congress for permission to use counterterrorism funds to upgrade Pakistan’s F-16 fighters, the State Department’s top diplomat for South Asia said on Monday.

But even if lawmakers balk, the State Department believes it has the authority to shift counterterrorism aid to the fighter programme. “For the moment, we’re not taking a legalistic approach to this. We’re trying to work it out with the Congress,” Richard Boucher, assistant secretary for South and Central Asian Affairs, said in an interview with Reuters.

Analysts say the F-16 and other big-ticket military items have in the past been viewed by Islamabad as weapons to help Pakistan counter its rival, India. In July, two senior Democratic lawmakers asked the administration not to use the $226.5 million to refurbish the F-16s. They said they feared the plan diverted cash from more urgent counterterrorism equipment like helicopters and night-vision goggles.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C09%5C17%5Cstory_17-9-2008_pg7_23


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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 10:58:56 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

When we have people staging cross-border attacks that kill Americans, than something needs to be done.  If the government of Pakistan can't or won't handle the situation, than I have no problem with us taking the matter into our own hands. 
As far as your example goes.I do not believe i disagree with any of it...still as a policy it needs some tweaking ..don't you think

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 11:24:25 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

As far as your example goes.I do not believe i disagree with any of it...still as a policy it needs some tweaking ..don't you think


I'm open to suggestions on that, Mike.  But what are we supposed to do?  We have repeatedly asked  Pakistan to handle the situation in the tribal areas, and they have done very little.  For the most part, they have taken a hands off approach and asked the tribal chiefs to police themselves.  We aren't the only ones that recognize this.  The Afghans have repeatedly expressed outrage at Pakistan's lax efforts to handle the problem. 

The Taliban is widely supported in that area, and they have free reign to slip back and forth across the border.  Osama Bin Laden is hiding out there, and that's not an easy task for a 6 foot tall Arab.  We've given the Pakistanis plenty of chances to handle all of this.  If they can't do it or won't do it, I don't see that we have any other choice. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 9/16/2008 11:25:27 PM >

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 11:24:50 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

When we have people staging cross-border attacks that kill Americans, than something needs to be done.  If the government of Pakistan can't or won't handle the situation, than I have no problem with us taking the matter into our own hands. 


......big can of worms. There were individuals in the 70's and 80's, American citizens, who funded terrorist atrocities in Northern Ireland. Would you support a raid by UK forces to find and terminate these individuals with extreme prejudice? Would you accept a certain amount of collateral damage? Say a couple of kids who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Say yes and you're not a hypocrite.

This is, essentially, what the US is doing in Pakistan right now. Invading a sovereign nations territory, killing citizens, excusing themselves a little collateral damage and going home calling themselves heroes.

Someone in my socialism thread referred to the US as a 'young republic', time to grow up bucko.

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 11:32:45 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
......big can of worms. There were individuals in the 70's and 80's, American citizens, who funded terrorist atrocities in Northern Ireland. Would you support a raid by UK forces to find and terminate these individuals with extreme prejudice? Would you accept a certain amount of collateral damage? Say a couple of kids who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Say yes and you're not a hypocrite.

If SAS needs help with identifying targets I know of a couple of bars that still have a jar for the "cause." I'm sure GWB won't mind since it is simply our ally applying his doctrine.

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 11:34:31 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
......big can of worms. There were individuals in the 70's and 80's, American citizens, who funded terrorist atrocities in Northern Ireland. Would you support a raid by UK forces to find and terminate these individuals with extreme prejudice? Would you accept a certain amount of collateral damage? Say a couple of kids who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Say yes and you're not a hypocrite.

If SAS needs help with identifying targets I know of a couple of bars that still have a jar for the "cause." I'm sure GWB won't mind since it is simply our ally applying his doctrine.


heh, sauce for the goose, yadda yadda......

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 11:44:45 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

......big can of worms. There were individuals in the 70's and 80's, American citizens, who funded terrorist atrocities in Northern Ireland. Would you support a raid by UK forces to find and terminate these individuals with extreme prejudice? Would you accept a certain amount of collateral damage? Say a couple of kids who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Say yes and you're not a hypocrite.


I don't find any merit in your comparison.  The United States has never allowed Irish-Americans free reign over an area of the country to hide out IRA members or manufacture arms.  We never allowed the IRA to operate here and sail back and forth across the Atlantic attacking the British.  Our government would prosecute anyone actively supplying the IRA with arms or directly funding the IRA.

I doubt very seriously that the British government would have allowed Ireland to have a lawless area bordering Ulster like which occurs on the Pakistan-Afghan border. 

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/16/2008 11:50:57 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I don't find any merit in your comparison.  The United States has never allowed Irish-Americans free reign over an area of the country to hide out IRA members or manufacture arms.


...are you sure about that? Ever been to Chicago?

quote:

  We never allowed the IRA to operate here and sail back and forth across the Atlantic attacking the British.


.....google Martin McGinnis

quote:

  Our government would prosecute anyone actively supplying the IRA with arms or directly funding the IRA.


...despite being asked repeatedly by Margaret Thatcher that's exactly what the sainted Reagan didn't do. His excuse was that he had no control over what private citizens did.

quote:

I doubt very seriously that the British government would have allowed Ireland to have a lawless area bordering Ulster like which occurs on the Pakistan-Afghan border. 


...doubt all you like, but the borders were wild indeed.

your ignorance on this subject is staggering.....you really don't realise that US citizens funded terrorism, helped organise arms shipments, harboured terrorists, and all that while the US government looked on and said 'nothing to do with us'?

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:10:00 AM   
Bethnai


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Status: offline 		Collection boxes are everything

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:45:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

......big can of worms. There were individuals in the 70's and 80's, American citizens, who funded terrorist atrocities in Northern Ireland. Would you support a raid by UK forces to find and terminate these individuals with extreme prejudice? Would you accept a certain amount of collateral damage? Say a couple of kids who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Say yes and you're not a hypocrite.


I don't find any merit in your comparison.  The United States has never allowed Irish-Americans free reign over an area of the country to hide out IRA members or manufacture arms.  We never allowed the IRA to operate here and sail back and forth across the Atlantic attacking the British.  Our government would prosecute anyone actively supplying the IRA with arms or directly funding the IRA.

I doubt very seriously that the British government would have allowed Ireland to have a lawless area bordering Ulster like which occurs on the Pakistan-Afghan border. 



American citizens were allowed to collect money for terrorism in Northern Ireland, that is a fact.

America was soft on Irish terrorists.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0DEEDE163AF932A1575AC0A962958260

The decision, by Judge Barbara A. Caulfield of Federal District Court here, was the first to rely on a new provision in the extradition treaty with Britain. The treaty, rewritten in 1986 making it tougher for suspected terrorists to fight extradition for political offenses, included an amendment allowing a court to refuse to extradite a fugitive if the defendant would be "punished, detained or restricted in his personal liberty by reason of his race, religion, nationality or political opinions."

The British did respect the Irish border for pragmatic reasons. Not to do so would have increased terrorism

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:52:33 AM   
Bethnai


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Status: offline 		Thank you. Political wise, we will never leave the "Mother Country". The underground shit is huge. It's the boxes in the bars. Its the shit in front of your face.

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 1:16:45 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The point is, America was soft on Irish terrorism, not that historically the Irish had a just fight against Britain. Most terrorism has its roots in a just cause, just as Islamic terrorism has its roots in a just cause.

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 1:42:03 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		slaveboy,
 
I have read articles and spoken with people from the Boston area who can tell you that collection jars to fund the IRA were common in Boston pubs.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 2:19:54 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

...are you sure about that? Ever been to Chicago?


I've driven through it.  I didn't have a reason to stop there. 

quote:

.....google Martin McGinnis 


I know who he is. 

quote:

...doubt all you like, but the borders were wild indeed.

your ignorance on this subject is staggering.....you really don't realise that US citizens funded terrorism, helped organise arms shipments, harboured terrorists, and all that while the US government looked on and said 'nothing to do with us'?   


Bullshit.  You can compare apples and oranges all day.  I'm not buying your comparison.  I am perfectly aware that American citizens sympathetic to the IRA cause raised money and committed illegal acts to ship arms overseas.  Whether you believe it or not, it is illegal to ship weapons to recognized terrorist groups. 

Yes there are several ways to get around the laws.  No it wasn't a priority of the U.S. government.  We did and do have our own internal problems to deal with.  I am under no delusions that some judges were lenient with IRA supporters who were charged with crimes.  Sorry, that's the way the cookie crumbles.  I'm not a supporter of the IRA or the Loyalists.  I think they are both nothing but a bunch of gangsters hiding behind a cause.  But it's not my problem, just like it's not yours that we have major cities in this country that make Derry and Belfast's past violence seem like Mayberry in comparison. 

I really don't care about Northern Ireland.  For that matter, I don't care about Pakistan or Afghanistan.  I care about the fact that 3,000 plus people were murdered and the staging ground was in Afghanistan.  Now those same people and their supporters are using Pakistan's sovereignty to shield themselves so they can continue killing more Americans.  In addition to those Americans, they are killing soldiers from home countries of many of the posters here. 

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