Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Pakistan border and US forces


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Pakistan border and US forces Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 3:25:47 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I really don't care about Northern Ireland.  For that matter, I don't care about Pakistan or Afghanistan.  I care about the fact that 3,000 plus people were murdered and the staging ground was in Afghanistan.  Now those same people and their supporters are using Pakistan's sovereignty to shield themselves so they can continue killing more Americans.  In addition to those Americans, they are killing soldiers from home countries of many of the posters here. 


So how is making Pakistan a potential new enemy in the region by ignoring the sensitivities and political difficulties of the country going to help America? America is already hated in the region through its history of interference which led directly or indirectly to the 9/11 attack. America can spend yet more trillions of dollars in the region and ruin its economy still further in an effort to try and pacify it but history and experience tells us jackbooted tactics don't work. The American airforce has killed several hundred innocent civilians in the last month, how is that helping America's fight? We all know it isn't helping, we all know those tactics recruit yet more fighters to fight the war against America.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 5:22:36 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

So how is making Pakistan a potential new enemy in the region by ignoring the sensitivities and political difficulties of the country going to help America? America is already hated in the region through its history of interference which led directly or indirectly to the 9/11 attack. America can spend yet more trillions of dollars in the region and ruin its economy still further in an effort to try and pacify it but history and experience tells us jackbooted tactics don't work. The American airforce has killed several hundred innocent civilians in the last month, how is that helping America's fight? We all know it isn't helping, we all know those tactics recruit yet more fighters to fight the war against America.


I never said there were simple answers.  I notice that none of the naysayers ever offer any solutions.  What should we do?  According to Osama Bin Laden's and others' statements there were 3 reasons for the attacks. One, our friendship with and support of Israel.  Two, our presense in the Middle East (notably Saudia Arabia during the first Gulf War.)  Three, our manipulation of the oil market. 

So are we supposed to stop being friends with the Israelis just because it pisses off certain people?  We were invited by the governments of Saudia Arabia and many other countries to be there.  Of course we manipulate politics in the region, but so does everyone else.  If it wasn't us, it would be others doing it.  As for the oil markets, well that's in our vital interests.  We will not and should not ever allow extremists to control the world's energy supplies. 

I realize this doesn't mesh with the utopian views of many on the Left, but reality rarely does. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 5:34:38 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I don't find any merit in your comparison.  The United States has never allowed Irish-Americans free reign over an area of the country to hide out IRA members or manufacture arms.

Yes, we did. Parts of New York City, Boston and Chicago were all safe havens for wanted IRA members and they didn't need to manufacture weapons, American citizens donated enough so that could buy them.

quote:

  We never allowed the IRA to operate here and sail back and forth across the Atlantic attacking the British.

Yes, we did. IRA fighters often came to the states to hide out and raise money.

quote:

  Our government would prosecute anyone actively supplying the IRA with arms or directly funding the IRA.

No. Those tip jars in Irish bars for the "cause" did directly fund arms purchases for the IRA and virtually no one was ever prosecuted.

quote:

I doubt very seriously that the British government would have allowed Ireland to have a lawless area bordering Ulster like which occurs on the Pakistan-Afghan border. 

The Ireland/Northern Ireland border was pretty wild. The Irish were in no particular hurry to help the British.

The bottom line is parts of the US gave aid and comfort to terrorists for 2 decades and virtually nothing was done to stop it.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 5:47:45 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I think this is the point where someone always says that "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."  What a bullshit statement.

I am still solidly of the belief that Britain needs to withdraw from Ireland.  The age of Empire is supposed to be over, after all.  BUT ....I have never been supportive of IRA bombings because bombs do not discriminate between soldiers and babies.  I have given money to help victims of those bombings and would gladly do so again.
As for American support of the IRA, not much I can support or dispute.  If you were in the right Irish neighborhood, I'm sure it happened.  In others, it didn't.  Like anything else, out of sight out of mind for most of the world.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:00:00 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
So how is making Pakistan a potential new enemy in the region by ignoring the sensitivities and political difficulties of the country going to help America? America is already hated in the region through its history of interference which led directly or indirectly to the 9/11 attack. America can spend yet more trillions of dollars in the region and ruin its economy still further in an effort to try and pacify it but history and experience tells us jackbooted tactics don't work.



We've finally learned on 9/11 that the true jackbooted thugs are Islamic extremists, and that we need to go and get them wherever they hide and wherever they train. And if  Pakistan is going to ignore the problem, we're right to pointedly bring it to Pakistan's attention again and again if necessary! Allowing such a terrorist network free reign anywhere is proven to be insane, no matter how much you desire just that, meatcleaver.

Since you fail to notice, I'll point something out to you. Al-Qaeda doesn't just attack Americans, they'll happily kill anyone, even their own kind if it strikes their fancy. They'll kill you for dancing a little too closely in a nightclub, a thing that would make you just as evil as any American in their eyes.

quote:

The American airforce has killed several hundred innocent civilians in the last month, how is that helping America's fight? We all know it isn't helping, we all know those tactics recruit yet more fighters to fight the war against America.


They can throw up all the propaganda they want and if you want to buy into it, you just go right ahead but the thing is, we target meaningful targets and do our best to avoid civilian casualties. If these al-Qaeda terrorists don't want their families involved they shouldn't house them in bomb factories or what have you. What would you have us do, parachute referees in there to seperate these rabid killers from their offspring before each strike?

Wish that it were you had the same kind of disdain for them, when they actually prefer to target "innocent civilians" but apparently that isn't the case, is it.

And for your information, meatcleaver, al-Qaeda isn't winning many friends because they kill far more Muslims than they do Americans. You seem to act as though this is a church choir we're going after which isn't the case at all.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/17/2008 6:13:01 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:05:47 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I am still solidly of the belief that Britain needs to withdraw from Ireland.  The age of Empire is supposed to be over, after all.  BUT ....I have never been supportive of IRA bombings because bombs do not discriminate between soldiers and babies.  I have given money to help victims of those bombings and would gladly do so again.
As for American support of the IRA, not much I can support or dispute.  If you were in the right Irish neighborhood, I'm sure it happened.  In others, it didn't.  Like anything else, out of sight out of mind for most of the world.


Britain has no claim over Ireland and would accept the will of the majority but the real problem is that many Northern Irish want to remain British and not just protestants if polling is believed. This is an intractable problem for historical reasons but the reason for protestant militancy in the north was that when the Republic became independent, they burnt out the protestants which were then 20% of the population and are now 2% so when Ireland was divided, protestant Irish set up an alternate protestant state in the north to the cathloic state in the south. A Republic of Ireland protestant comedian said of the Republic, a family of a protestant could have lived in Ireland for hundreds of years but they are classed less Irish than a catholic Pole who has lived in the Republic for a year. The problem in Ireland can only be solved by all Irish no matter what their religion is, accepting they are all Irish.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:08:42 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I partially agree with you.  All Irish need to unite as Irish.  Screw the Catholic/Protestant fight.  As for Britain accepting the will of the majority .... doubtful.  They like their toy too much.  By that, I mean the politicians, not the people.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:18:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity




We've finally learned on 9/11 that the true jackbooted thugs are Islamic extremists, and that we need to go and get them wherever they hide and wherever they train. And if  Pakistan is going to ignore the problem, we're right to pointedly bring it to Pakistan's attention again and again if necessary! Allowing such a terrorist network free reign anywhere is proven to be insane, no matter how much you desire just that, meatcleaver.



Sanity, since when has the eastern hemisphere been the American backyard? It is Americans being where they aren't wanted and materially supporting dictatorships that torture their own citizens that started the resentment that led to terrorism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Since you fail to notice, I'll point something out to you. Al-Qaeda doesn't just attack Americans, they'll happily kill anyone, even their own kind if it strikes their fancy. They'll kill you for dancing a little too closely in a nightclub, a thing that would make you just as evil as any American in their eyes.


It has been historical western interference that gave rise to the resentment that fed and increasingly feeds terrorist organisations. Why should more of the same old failed tactics prove to have a different result? Isn't doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome the definition of madness?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

They can throw up all the propaganda they want and if you want to buy into it, you just go right ahead but the thing is, we target meaningful targets and do our best to avoid civilian casualties. If these al-Qaeda terrorists don't want their families involved they shouldn't house them in bomb factories or what have you. What would you have us do, parachute referees in there to seperate these rabid killers from their offspring before each strike?

And for your information, meatcleaver, al-Qaeda isn't winning many friends because they kill far more Muslims than they do Americans. You seem to act as though this is a church choir we're going after which isn't the case at all.


The American killing of innocent civilians isn't propaganda, its a fact. My guess is that if 90 of your loved ones and friends were blown up at a wedding, you wouldn't say it was OK because it was an accident? Especially if you didn't trust the people who caused the accident in the first place.

As for your link, only the other day a NATO spokeman said it was imperative NATO forces stop killing civilians because the population in the south of Afghanistan is turning to the Taliban for protection.


_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:29:12 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
The Chinese, the Russians, the Germans and the French, etc., etc., etc. are also nosing around in the Middle East, meatcleaver.

People can move around on this planet, it isn't something that gives al-Qaeda any right to blow up any skyscrapers anywhere. Drawing a cartoon gives them no right to kill you, but according to them it does.

Al-Qaeda attacked us and now they're hiding in Pakistan. We find out where, they're dead. 

Too bad for them.




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:35:28 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The Chinese, the Russians, the Germans and the French, etc., etc., etc. are also nosing around in the Middle East, meatcleaver.



True and they've suffered terrorism too but I think you will find that both Chirac and Schroeder said, the invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism but it will create more terrorism. That happened. As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, America has tried to keep everyone else out of the process because everyone else doesn't believe America belligerence and partizanship is having a positive effect on the region.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:41:51 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


People can move around on this planet, it isn't something that gives al-Qaeda any right to blow up any skyscrapers anywhere. Drawing a cartoon gives them no right to kill you, but according to them it does.

Al-Qaeda attacked us and now they're hiding in Pakistan. We find out where, they're dead. 

Too bad for them.



This is typical head in the sand solutions. The war is costing the US an enormous amount of resources and weakening the US economy while everyone else America sees as a potential enemy, China and India are getting stronger and laughing their head off while America chases itself into a knot. Diplomacy and economic might would serve America far better and be a lot cheaper than its Hollywood startrooper thinking.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/17/2008 6:42:35 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:47:44 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
That's your opinion but we've all seen that al-Qaeda is as willing to bomb a girls's school as it is an American embassy, and intelligent people agree that allowing terrorists a place to hide and train is a very bad idea.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:51:16 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


That's your opinion but we've all seen that al-Qaeda is as willing to bomb a girls's school as it is an American embassy, and intelligent people agree that allowing terrorists a place to hide and train is a very bad idea.



I've never advocated supporting terrorism, I'm just pointing out that it was the west that radicalized Islam through interference for its own ends and that continued western tactics of knowing what is best for everyone only increases terrorism. Its not a smart way to fight a war against terrorism, it is the tactics of failure and frustration and isn't rational. Killing a few terrorists and not caring what innocents get killed might make you feel better but it isn't a solution.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/17/2008 6:52:32 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:55:08 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
I disagree completely. Islamic extremism exists independently of outside influence, the United States wasn't even an idea when it began.

Ignoring it won't make it go away, and in fact allows it to grow to the point that it can and will cause incredible harm.

That last point's been proven.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 6:59:55 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I disagree completely. Islamic extremism exists independently of outside influence, the United States wasn't even an idea when it began.

Ignoring it won't make it go away, and in fact allows it to grow to the point that it can and will cause incredible harm.

That last point's been proven.



You really don't know any history if you are coming out with stuff like that.

I suppose western and American interference in the middle east was for the benefit of the people that lived there not for the short term benefit of the west.

EDIT TO ADD. After WWI the fall of the Ottoman Empire the west missed a golden opportunity to win the confidence of the middle east but Britain decided to double-deal, double cross and play the middle east for its own benefit, the US took over where the Brits left off.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/17/2008 7:05:56 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 7:08:48 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but you're wrong.


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 7:13:04 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		When someone replies with a post like that, they know they have lost the argument.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 7:15:31 AM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

You really don't know any history if you are coming out with stuff like that.

I suppose western and American interference in the middle east was for the benefit of the people that lived there not for the short term benefit of the west.


The first conflict that America had with Islamic extremists was with the Barbary pirates.  We fought with them twice, and we didn't start it either time.  We could have gone on paying tributes to them so our ships could sail through the Med unmolested, but we decided not to. 

Arab nationalism  and Wahhabism (the real root of modern Islamic extremism.) started under the Ottoman Empire, which I wouldn't call a Western country.  Wahhabism is the brand of Islam that controls Saudia Arabia now, and they are the very same government that invited us in during the First Gulf War.  It's one of the major gripes of Al Qaida and other affiliated extremist groups.  So I wouldn't exactly call that our fault.  Our support of Israel is their other major gripe.  Well, we have the 2nd largest Jewish population in the world.  Israel is our ally, and that isn't going to stop.  We shouldn't be told by extremists who we can and can't support. 

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 7:15:56 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Q: Where's Osama?

A: It doesn't matter, COZ, Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11... oh hold on, no, he wasn't, and we still haven't caught bin Laden, but hey, it dasnah mattah, 'coz, like, Osama's EVIL, but they're all, like, MOOZZLEM Islamsics, and even when MOOZZLEMS die, they're still moozzlems, so, you know. And stuff.

_____________________________



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 7:18:16 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Q: Where's Osama?



Rumor has it he's in Pakistan, and it really seems to piss certain people off if they think that Bush might just get him before he leaves office.




_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Pakistan border and US forces Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094