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RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 10:06:31 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

philo,

You are still making the same error in understanding that I pointed out in my original post, to wit:

"Morality" and "rights" are individual moral concepts, while "international rights" are not.



Only because it has been decided by those in power it is convenient.

Actually, individuals have rights because the collective demands rights for the individual, they can equally demand that nations should also have rights too.


A group ("collective"!) can "claim" whatever they want. Doesn't mean that they will get it, now does it?

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 10:13:29 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		There is something that Americans and Europeans must understand. Moslems in that area of the world are divided into groups that hate each other…but they hate us more. They are perfectly willing to use us to further their personal power but they hold no allegiance to us.

The Pakistani’s have no more intention of reining in Al Qaida attacks across the border with Afghanistan then with India.

We have a right to be in Afghanistan and we have a right to defend ourselves from attack there.

Our problem…we have not learned the lessons from the Korean, Vietnam, and Iraq wars. You cannot fight a war with boundaries you can’t cross and limited power.

We need to be diplomatic but firm and notify Pakistan if they don’t make a real effort to stop across border attacks and staging that we will cross their borders in pursuit and may occupy land…AND BE SURE THEY KNOW WE MEAN IT.

If this means an all out mobilization and war so be it… it is the only way to win.

If we don’t want to take these steps then pull out of the area completely and just bomb as needed.


Butch

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 10:13:53 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

Does Russia have rights then?


They invaded Georgia went they wanted to, didn't they?

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 10:29:41 AM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Yes they did but they will feel the pinch in ways philosophy pointed out.

What does the US give the world that couldn’t be produced elsewhere? The reputation of a country is just as important to the consumers of the world as the products they produce. Generic drugs are cheaper, Microsoft Windows is available in pirated foreign language versions which would ensure none of the money would go to the owners of that intellectual property. You don't expect a foreign country to enforce your intellectual property rights do you because that would take inter governmental co-operation.

You are lucky not everyone in your government and the governments of countries around the world think like you.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 9/17/2008 10:31:00 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 10:34:43 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


"Morality" and "rights" are individual moral concepts, while "international rights" are not.

We use the same words for both ("rights") but they are not the same thing at all.


...well, i'm sure you'll be stunned when i say i disagree.........

quote:

Individual morality and concepts can influence international rights (and perhaps should), but to confuse the two ensures conflicts in understanding such as seen in this thread, and in much discussion of international politics.


......it's not rights that i'm really focussing on...it's law. There are a number of laws out there that aren't set by individual nation states but are agreed between them. Only we don't call them laws, we usually call them treaties. The US is signatory to a number of these treaties. One of the biggest problems the international community had with GWB was his apparent diregard for treaties signed by the state of which he was the temporary head of. In essence he broke laws. Now we can go on and on about how our society in internally driven by law, but if we then break laws in international relations then we're hypocrites. Imagine a house where all stealing from family members is forbidden and enforced, but they then go and steal merrily from their neighbours.

quote:

All society is based on the use of force, just as all international relations are.


...there may be a grain of truth in this, but there are other facets equally important. One of them is consensus. i may not communicate this next bit well, but bear with me.......
.....if force is the mainstay of societal interactions, then how can rape be a crime? Might makes right, after all. Now we both know that it is a crime, a heinous one at that. Which means there are other factors beyond mere strength that are important.

quote:

It is currently nation-states that systematize and limit the use of force within a society which allow our particular concepts of "individual rights" as inalienable human rights to exist.


.....the declaration of independence, the bill of rights, the US constitution.....these are all concepts put into words. These concepts reoccur throughout human history and we are only slowly perfecting their application into practice. Force may be used to make sure people follow the rules contained therein, but force wasn't necessary to come up with the concepts in the first place. As humanity matures the amount of force necessary to implement them becomes less. It's as if, as a species, we are slowly learning a lesson. You appear to be arguing that force is a constant in this equation.....i'd posit that its a factor that is disappearing.

quote:

There is no such "higher authority" to do the same thing to nation-states, other than more powerful nation-states.


...actually i can think of two examples where this isn't cut and dried. One, the EU...secondly the USA itself. Both are examples of individual states recognising that a higher level of organisation does not blot out their individuality but can enhance and help protect it.

quote:

The US has attempted to grow an international framework based on moderating much of the inherent reliance of naked power as the standard on which to judge international state actions, to the point that many forget that that consensus is based on the naked might of the Western-centric system that we planned and emplaced after WWII.


...the league of nations, the UN. However, until the USA actually pays the UN the money it owes it then it can't really claim to be leading the fight to create that international framework.



...bit of a rambly post i'm afraid....still on only my second cup of coffee here........however i'm sure that once that second neuron wakes up i'll be a bit more lucid.....

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:07:12 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:21:15 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

philo,

You are still making the same error in understanding that I pointed out in my original post, to wit:

"Morality" and "rights" are individual moral concepts, while "international rights" are not.



Only because it has been decided by those in power it is convenient.

Actually, individuals have rights because the collective demands rights for the individual, they can equally demand that nations should also have rights too.


A group ("collective"!) can "claim" whatever they want. Doesn't mean that they will get it, now does it?

Firm


An individual can claim all the rights they want, without the collective imposing those rights, rights are meaningless. It is quite clear when the founding fathers wrote "unalienable Rights... Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness etc etc",  into the constitution, they didn't mean everyone because they didn't apply them to slaves so with the refusal of the collective to impose rights, slaves had no rights, despite them being supposedly unalienable.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:26:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?


The USA might be the most powerful military power on the face of the earth but not even they have the power to subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan together so why other than stupidity are they pursuing a policy that will drive them all together?

It was on the radio about a hour ago, the US airforce killed 360 civilians last month and so far this month about 200 in Afghanistan. That is not counting 90 at a wedding in Pakistan a couple of days ago where the majority of dead were children. With those sort of figures its not surprising the Taliban are increasing their support.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:35:00 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?


......the likely result of these sort of incursions is an upswing in anti-American feeling. If the desired result of these actions is to prevent another 9/11 then it's a stupid, stupid policy. It's just making it more likely.
The nightmare scenario is that the people behind this policy aren't stupid at all.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:38:46 AM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Thank you for your answers, meatcleaver and philosophy.  The scenarios presented are pretty much what I was expecting. 

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:46:37 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?


The USA might be the most powerful military power on the face of the earth but not even they have the power to subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan together so why other than stupidity are they pursuing a policy that will drive them all together?

It was on the radio about a hour ago, the US airforce killed 360 civilians last month and so far this month about 200 in Afghanistan. That is not counting 90 at a wedding in Pakistan a couple of days ago where the majority of dead were children. With those sort of figures its not surprising the Taliban are increasing their support.


In real war civilians get killed....sad but unavoidable...BUT You are a real guppy if you believe all the propaganda and false reports the enemy puts out to influence gullible people.

We do not indiscriminately target and kill innocents. In fact we are the only warring nation that ever gave a crap about non-combatants.

Don’t you think it’s little…tiny…weenie suspicious that we only kill women and children….and only hit wedding parties… and Never Ever any combatants?

Butch

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:49:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?


The USA might be the most powerful military power on the face of the earth but not even they have the power to subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan together so why other than stupidity are they pursuing a policy that will drive them all together?

It was on the radio about a hour ago, the US airforce killed 360 civilians last month and so far this month about 200 in Afghanistan. That is not counting 90 at a wedding in Pakistan a couple of days ago where the majority of dead were children. With those sort of figures its not surprising the Taliban are increasing their support.


In real war civilians get killed....sad but unavoidable...BUT You are a real guppy if you believe all the propaganda and false reports the enemy puts out to influence gullible people.

We do not indiscriminately target and kill innocents. In fact we are the only warring nation that ever gave a crap about non-combatants.

Don’t you think it’s little…tiny…weenie suspicious that we only kill women and children….and only hit wedding parties… and Never Ever any combatants?

Butch



Actually these figures are accepted by NATO and as for the wedding, that too has been verified or as verifieed as one can from the bits and pieces of the children.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:52:52 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?

We're in sort of a bind.

The Pakistani tribal areas are fiercely anti american, why is unclear to me. They certainly made a lot of money from our support of the mujahideen during the soviet occupation of Afghanistan but it may be a more general form of extreme xenophobia. Stopping or continuing the raids will likely have no effect on that.

Continuing the attacks weakens the pro western elements in Pakistan's government and strengthens the Pakistani intelligence service which originally created the Taliban. If those radical islamists gain control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons one or more will almost certainly be used, Tel Aviv and New Delhi are the two most likely targets.

Ending the attacks makes the US look weak and would embolden the Taliban and Al Qaeda. With winter weather about to severely limit Pakistan's ability to reinforce its border outposts it wouldn't shock me to see renewed Taliban/Al Qaeda attacks on the border forts to allow for the easy movement of men and material into Afghanistan in the spring and to be used as a propganda tool against the Pakistani government.

Ultimately the best solution is to strengthen the Pakistani government somehow, I have no idea how, so it would be politically possible for the Pakistani to extend central government control into these essentially lawless "tribal" areas. This would inevitably result in violent incidents and a few battles involving the Taliban/Al Qaeda forces stiffened by the locals but the situation has to resolved sooner or later and it is likely best done ASAP. Otherwise this region will remain a safe haven for anti western extremists.

And for the record I think the cross border raids are a bad idea but they may be the best solution to an otherwise intractable situation. I just hope we bring down our one even remotely reliable ally in the area in the process.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 9/17/2008 11:55:02 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:53:51 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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Status: offline 		Like I say you don't find any of those findings suspicious?... As I remeber the wedding was years ago... and some of the guests were firing guns in the air in the area of American helicopters.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/17/2008 11:54:40 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 11:56:41 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?

We're in sort of a bind.

The Pakistani tribal areas are fiercely anti american, why is unclear to me. They certainly made a lot of money from our support of the mujahideen during the soviet occupation of Afghanistan but it may be a more general form of extreme xenophobia. Stopping or continuing the raids will likely have no effect on that.

Continuing the attacks weakens the pro western elements in Pakistan's government and strengthens the Pakistani intelligence service which originally created the Taliban. If those radical islamists gain control of Pakistan's nuclear weapons one or more will almost certainly be used, Tel Aviv and New Delhi are the two most likely targets.

Ending the attacks makes the US look weak and would embolden the Taliban and Al Qaeda. With winter weather about to severely limit Pakistan's ability to reinforce its border outposts it wouldn't shock me to see renewed Taliban/Al Qaeda attacks on the border forts to allow for the easy movement of men and material into Afghanistan in the spring and to be used as a propganda tool against the Pakistani government.

Ultimately the best solution is to strengthen the Pakistani government somehow, I have no idea how, so it would be politically possible for the Pakistani to extend central government control into these essentially lawless "tribal" areas. This would inevitably result in violent incidents and a few battles involving the Taliban/Al Qaeda forces stiffened by the locals but the situation has to resolved sooner or later and it is likely best done ASAP. Otherwise this region will remain a safe haven for anti western extremists.


I completely agree with your assessment.  Hopefully the newly elected government will be a good step in that direction.  Musharif had lost too much credibility with the street to be of any positive influence on changing the environment.

Time will tell, and unfortunately time is not on our side.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:13:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ultimately the best solution is to strengthen the Pakistani government somehow, I have no idea how, so it would be politically possible for the Pakistani to extend central government control into these essentially lawless "tribal" areas. This would inevitably result in violent incidents and a few battles involving the Taliban/Al Qaeda forces stiffened by the locals but the situation has to resolved sooner or later and it is likely best done ASAP. Otherwise this region will remain a safe haven for anti western extremists.



Every raid weakens the Pakistani government and the chances of the Pakistani government controling the tribal areas gets less and less with each raid and the power on central government will get less and less if they don't react against the US. With each raid the bigger the chance is that the Pakistani government will put its own survival first and its pro-American stance second, until it doesn't care about America's war on terror. Pakistan has already said, US raids are turning the terrorists into romantic freedom fighters in the tribal areas. The fact that America doesn't seem to understand the antipathy towards America in the tribal region, doesn't bode well for their war in Afghanistan. The people of the Pakistani tribal area are Peshwar, the same Peshwar people NATO is fighting in SE Afghanistan.

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:27:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		So the consensus......Pakistan is too weak to control radicals....US actions are weakening what small control the Pakistan's have.... So we should just let radicals cross at will and kill our boys and girls.

No I am with....hard to say it...but with Bush on this one. The Pakistan's either step up...aside... or be annihilated.

I'm all for diplomacy and warnings but if these fail we need to take action and mean it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 9/17/2008 12:29:09 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:37:29 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No I am with....hard to say it...but with Bush on this one. The Pakistan's either step up...aside... or be annihilated.



..and what would happen after the US annihilates Pakistan? Do you seriously think it would make future 9/11's less likely?
The major problem with US foreign policy is that it's so near sighted. It's all short term thinking. 
Now i'm not saying do nothing. My take on it is that the best possible option would be for Pakistan to sort this out. So, instead of charging to use the military option, what can be done to strengthen the Pakistani authorities hand? How can we convince countries like Pakistan that controlling these sort of insurgents is a good thing? Where are the diplomats?
Sometimes you have to take a short term hit to make an enormous long term gain. Sacrificing the long term for the short term is almost always immensely counter-productive.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:38:48 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

General reply -
 
If US forces continue with this military action what are the likely results?

And if US forces stop crossing the border into Pakistan without prior agreement with that government will that mend any fences?
 
Is this simply a matter of asking permission first of Pakistan?

Or will that let the Al Qaeda groups know our exact plans?


The USA might be the most powerful military power on the face of the earth but not even they have the power to subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan together so why other than stupidity are they pursuing a policy that will drive them all together?



The USA might be the most powerful military power on the face of the earth but not even they have the power to subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan together

Sorry, gotta disagree here.

The US certainly has the capability and ability to "subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan" all together.

The technical aspects of such "subjugation" isn't really that difficult, although certainly complex.

The question is one of political will, not technical capability.

Firm

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 12:48:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		At this rate, the USA will annihilate themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 80
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