Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Pakistan border and US forces


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Pakistan border and US forces Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 9:11:17 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No I am with....hard to say it...but with Bush on this one. The Pakistan's either step up...aside... or be annihilated.



..and what would happen after the US annihilates Pakistan? Do you seriously think it would make future 9/11's less likely?
The major problem with US foreign policy is that it's so near sighted. It's all short term thinking. 
Now i'm not saying do nothing. My take on it is that the best possible option would be for Pakistan to sort this out. So, instead of charging to use the military option, what can be done to strengthen the Pakistani authorities hand? How can we convince countries like Pakistan that controlling these sort of insurgents is a good thing? Where are the diplomats?
Sometimes you have to take a short term hit to make an enormous long term gain. Sacrificing the long term for the short term is almost always immensely counter-productive.


That would be fine but Pakistan cannot sort it out...I don't believe it wants to.

Does any action anywhere anytime make it less likely...No not in my opinion.. All that will work is to destroy their bases and support. I do believe that only full force will do this. Too many times we have backed off in the past and we see where that has led.

My friend I don’t want war but we must fight it properly …to me that means with all resources…both politically and militarily. If from the beginning Iran and Syria saw we were serious and they would be next the support for these radicals would dry up overnight.

Butch


Butch,

We don't always agree, but I find your analysis in this thread to be spot on, and a great example of Jacksonian thinking.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 9:17:23 PM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Q: Where's Osama?

A: It doesn't matter, COZ, Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11...


Huh?.....huck huck.....I thought it was AL-CIATA?

quote:


oh hold on, no, he wasn't, and we still haven't caught bin Laden


Um.....huck huck.....he's holed up with Adam Gadahn in a cave somewhere, snakn' on pork rinds from Frito-Lay, sitting on goat skins draped over orange plastic milk crates, plotting/masterminding the next great version of 9/11 with their cloned laptops and hacked I-phones... 


quote:

but hey, it dasnah mattah, 'coz, like, Osama's EVIL, but they're all, like, MOOZZLEM Islamsics, and even when MOOZZLEMS die, they're still moozzlems, so, you know. And stuff.


Yeeah..... but no need to waste lead - just a few ham sandwhiches{masqueraded with pieces of under-cooked lamb and falafel in a Wal-Mart pita pocket} and some goat-cheese yogurt oughta do the trick....




- R




< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 9/17/2008 9:20:05 PM >

_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 9:29:07 PM   
Dominatist


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/18/2007
Status: offline 		Oops

< Message edited by Dominatist -- 9/17/2008 9:31:09 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/17/2008 9:29:24 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Do you have evidence that the videos mentioned below or demonizing Jews will create just as many dedicated terrorists as killing civilians or the militants?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Killing their leaders is merely their current poster child for recruitment. If we're not killing their leaders they will use a Madonna video with equally good results. Or video of night club action... or they'll demonize Jews.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 1:02:58 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Sorry, gotta disagree here.

The US certainly has the capability and ability to "subjugate Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan" all together.

The technical aspects of such "subjugation" isn't really that difficult, although certainly complex.

The question is one of political will, not technical capability.

Firm


I think you have an over romanticized view of American power since it hasn't subdued Iraq yet and many there are staying quiet because of the dollars they are receiving in bribes. That and the debts the US has built up for its wars already will go still higher while the US economy weakens. Even Steiglitz pointed out that there is no reason for the world to keep providing the US with more and more money. Wasn't it him that likened the US to being a man on the beach sun bathing and the rest of the world like four men spending the money they earn to take care of his needs? If it wasn't him it was some other top economist. Anyway as he pointed out, at some point the four men are going to realize they don't have to spend their money on the man sun bathing, they would be better off spending it on themselves.

A part from that is the US did attack Pakistan proper, the chances are that anti-American reaction would spread rapidly through the whole muslim world and beyond and Pakistan would diseminate nuclear weapons technology, its not averse to doing that already. But my guess is that even the US's closest western allies would distance themselves, they have no great belief in US's war on terror, most seeing US strategy as creating more terrorism, not less.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/18/2008 1:03:47 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 1:19:19 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yes it does...war is hell... a tragic mistake…  however as a nation they are reaping what they sowed…. as are we for being weak all these past years… The innocent deaths are our fault… we should have acted sooner and not let it come to this mess.

What is the alternative?….We can’t win the hearts and minds of those that don’t want or like us…and we can’t leave them to their own…. or the fighting will one day be in our backyards.

We must win and win decisively and hope we can limit innocent deaths.

Butch


Butch, i agree with you, in that there are no easy answers. Escalating the war into Pakistan will be a nightmare. What would America do if the oil producing states cut of supplies in response ? It wont matter how smart your technology is, if it cant get off the ground.


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 1:24:41 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity



If every event like this is a "recruiting drive for the militants" then what is it when "the militants" blow up Muslims in front of an embassy or at a public market or in a girl's school.

Is that considered a recruiting drive for the American army?

Or what is that.



You miss the point, which of the two attacks do you think will raise most public anger. Militants, who are often seen as freedom fighters, or a foreign power stationed on home soil ?

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 1:26:10 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm not advocating any of this. I'm only saying that looking at capabilities, the only missing element is political will.

It has nothing to do with patriotism, only a realistic look at capabilities.

A four continent war wouldn't be a good thing. A "two-front" war is never a good thing (ask the German's). It would be a stretch as I said, but if the American people and government were sufficiently motivated, it would be possible.

The use of of the full available power of the United States (including the judicious use of nukes) would intimidate most nations (including all the European ones). The only two nations that would be any serious obstacle would be Russia and China.

A large Army would be helpful if we were interested in occupying a nation but if our main interest was in the resources and acquiescence of nations not in direct conflict with us, then the size of the US Army wouldn't be that much of an obstacle. Go see how many soldiers the British needed to control a world-wide empire.

The control of the oceans would be easy. We are the only nation capable of controlling world trade with hardly a change in our current deployments.

As far as the "moral outrage"? pffft. The cold hard fact is that the majority of the world respects power. Most of the "outrage" would be in leftist Europe, and most of that "outrage" is stage managed in an attempt to influence US public and governmental policy. If the US got to the point of doing the things we are discussing, that opinion would not only be inconsequential, but likely not even expressed after a time.

And a very important fact that you seem to be overlooking ... history is written by the winners.

Firm


I want some of what you are on. That analysis is delusional. As for you saying it took very few soldiers for Britain to control the its world wide empire, that is because it had the complete opposite strategy to what the US employs. Britain at its height perfected diplomacy, double dealing, quiet threats and gun boat diplomacy. Only when those failed did it use actual military power and they kept that to a minimum because they realized military cures could be worse than the illness. The reason Britain held India with less soldiers than the US is struggling to hold Iraq with is because many Indian princes saw British power as in their own personal interests and many British soldiers were actually Indian.

Also, Britain earned from its empire, what you describe would bleed the US dry. The US already has a weak economy and its borrowings are at a record rate. Too many wars and a bloated military have brought many an empire down. What you describe would be the end of the American Empire. I doubt America would survive in Europe, most American installations in Europe are there against the will of the populations and I can't see many governments commiting political suicide by supporting American use of the installations if they know they are in for election anihilation.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/18/2008 1:39:13 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 4:44:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		FR:

meat,

Your hatred of all things American is obvious to any rational person on the forum, so I'm not surprised at your comments. If you notice (which you probably don't), I hardly ever engage with you - or even read your posts.

In this case, you are making the exact same error in understanding that the Taliban and AQ made about the US, not unlike many people with more hubris than understanding.

You look on us as an ineffectual bumbling giant - which we often are. We do attempt to adhere to a different way of dealing with the world, and try to "be fair" and live up to our ideals, however imperfectly. You are also making a basic cross-cultural mistake in understanding, which you might come to better understand if you read the articles about "The Jacksonian Tradition" to which I have twiced linked.

Butch is an example of that tradition I think.

Basically, there is an "off/on" switch in the American psyche when it comes to war. You can hear echoes of it in both political parties, and in our media if you are paying attention.

You therefore underestimate the burden that we are willing to pay in the right situation, and our ability to understand the economic realities of such a battle. Our ability to change the terms of world trade to our advantage by force or fiat, if we so chose, is beyond your ken, I think.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:07:04 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

meat,

Your hatred of all things American is obvious to any rational person on the forum, so I'm not surprised at your comments. If you notice (which you probably don't), I hardly ever engage with you - or even read your posts.


I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-stupid and anti-malicious, that is about the 1 in 3 Americans that think Bush is doing a good job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
In this case, you are making the exact same error in understanding that the Taliban and AQ made about the US, not unlike many people with more hubris than understanding.

You look on us as an ineffectual bumbling giant - which we often are. We do attempt to adhere to a different way of dealing with the world, and try to "be fair" and live up to our ideals, however imperfectly. You are also making a basic cross-cultural mistake in understanding, which you might come to better understand if you read the articles about "The Jacksonian Tradition" to which I have twiced linked.


I don't think America is an ineffectual bumbling giant, wish that it were while Bush and cronnies are in power. Bush and Co are malicious, vindictive, lying warmongers and don't give a shit about anyone, not even the fools that voted for them. I've never noticed Bush trying to be fair, his cabinet did all it could to interfer in domestic politics in Europe to get as many idiots on side for the stupid Iraq invasion while trying to discredit those against the invasion. The problem was, that those people Rumsfeld insulted knew there was no evidence on which the war was based and let everyone know it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Butch is an example of that tradition I think.


If Butch is Bush, then I think you've lost the plot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Basically, there is an "off/on" switch in the American psyche when it comes to war. You can hear echoes of it in both political parties, and in our media if you are paying attention.



Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. None really went that well or are going that well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
You therefore underestimate the burden that we are willing to pay in the right situation, and our ability to understand the economic realities of such a battle. Our ability to change the terms of world trade to our advantage by force or fiat, if we so chose, is beyond your ken, I think.



When American realise their standard of living is dropping and the American economy is being ruined for wars that didn't and don't need to be fought, I doubt many will stand behind the warmongers.

WWII was a completely different scenario than the stupid wars America has fought since.

EDIT grammar

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/18/2008 5:12:20 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:19:01 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Sure. They've been recruiting their "freedom fighters" for centuries... and we haven't been around for that long.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Do you have evidence that the videos mentioned below or demonizing Jews will create just as many dedicated terrorists as killing civilians or the militants?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Killing their leaders is merely their current poster child for recruitment. If we're not killing their leaders they will use a Madonna video with equally good results. Or video of night club action... or they'll demonize Jews.



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:23:54 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Sure. They've been recruiting their "freedom fighters" for centuries... and we haven't been around for that long.



Who are these 'they' you speak of? There were 'freedom fighters' around the time of the Ottoman Empire? Wow.

_____________________________



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:27:39 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		No, you missed the point, which is your "militants" turn their fellows cold with their indiscriminate killing of other Muslims.

They recruit or force young men and women to strap on homicide vests... they're horrible people.

Put it to you this way. What is your opinion of extremely violent groups people running the streets around your town or country. Do feel like running off and joining them, or do you wish someone would do something about them...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You miss the point, which of the two attacks do you think will raise most public anger. Militants, who are often seen as freedom fighters, or a foreign power stationed on home soil ?



< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/18/2008 5:28:21 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:29:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

They recruit or force young men and women to strap on homicide vests... they're horrible people.

Put it to you this way. What is your opinion of extremely violent groups people running the streets around your town or country. Do feel like running off and joining them, or do you wish someone would do something about them...



You know, what you described above sounds like the military of any country.

_____________________________



(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:34:24 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		In most countries though, you're not considered to be less than human if you're not a male exactly like the rest of them, in every extreme thought they carry.

Edited to add,

And they're not like a regular army, accountable to anyone. They're more like gangs, or the mafia. Thugs who will randomly snatch you off the street and punish you according to their own code because they could see an ankle.




< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/18/2008 5:41:14 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:34:41 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

They recruit or force young men and women to strap on homicide vests... they're horrible people.

Put it to you this way. What is your opinion of extremely violent groups people running the streets around your town or country. Do feel like running off and joining them, or do you wish someone would do something about them...



You know, what you described above sounds like the military of any country.


This comment just displays your massive ignorance on the subject.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:43:32 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No, my comment displayed my strong feelings on the subject.

_____________________________



(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 5:54:24 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

In most countries though, you're not considered to be less than human if you're not a male exactly like the rest of them, in every extreme thought they carry.

Edited to add,

And they're not like a regular army, accountable to anyone. They're more like gangs, or the mafia. Thugs who will randomly snatch you off the street and punish you according to their own code because they could see an ankle.



You mean like the American rebels in the revolutionary war?

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 6:48:44 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
Do you feel complete now, since you've gotten your daily kick in at the United States?

More to your question though, and back towards the topic, only if your idea of freedom is living as a virtual slave under al-Qaeda Masters. Unless you've really convinced yourself that Muslim extremists in the tribal areas of Pakistan have formed a Constitutional Congress and are right now hammering out some kind of an actual Bill Of Rights.

Here's a question for you, meatcleaver. Do you think Muhummad himself was a "freedom fighter"?






< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/18/2008 6:52:23 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Pakistan border and US forces - 9/18/2008 7:49:29 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Do you feel complete now, since you've gotten your daily kick in at the United States?

More to your question though, and back towards the topic, only if your idea of freedom is living as a virtual slave under al-Qaeda Masters. Unless you've really convinced yourself that Muslim extremists in the tribal areas of Pakistan have formed a Constitutional Congress and are right now hammering out some kind of an actual Bill Of Rights.

Here's a question for you, meatcleaver. Do you think Muhummad himself was a "freedom fighter"?



I'm not after a daily kick at the US, I'm after getting at the warmongers and showing their arguments to be dangerous and irrational.

Muhammad was a man of his times which was the sixth century AD and since faith and superstition ruled the lives of people at that time and had not been challenged by rational thought, he was forward looking, more violent than some, less violent  than others. The idea of someone being s freedom fighter probably didn't exist in the sixth century, one wasn't free, one was ruled by god or the gods depending on where you lived. So no, he wasn't a freedom fighter which is a modern term. However, if you are talking about the terrorists that are fighting today, you could argue they are since they are fighting for a world they believe in which is every bit as real as Bush's and all the terrorists and Bush are doing, is reinforcing each other's view of the world.

It only seems to be the Republicans that equate being anti-war as being anti-American. That might have something to do with their vision of America, not what America actually is.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/18/2008 7:52:30 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Pakistan border and US forces Page: <<   < prev  4 5 [6] 7 8   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094