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RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/2/2005 6:32:00 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

We claim that honor, respect, and trust are key components to a healthy bdsm M/s relationship


I get tired of hearing about these claims. These elements are important in any relationship, vanilla or bdsm. For some reason many think this lifestyle is special and blessed and highly populated with people full of honor, respect, trust, etc, blah blah. It's no more special than anything else.


edited for grammar

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/2/2005 7:43:11 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Honor, Integrity and respect are basic human precepts--they do not begin when O/one proclaims they are in the life--these should exist before one approaches the life---given that, I have found when those traits are mssing in their vanilla life, they do not exist in the L/life----and the L/life is more often used to mask the inadequacies---and its sad, because yes it provides a breeding ground for predators and prey both--giving us all proverbial black eyes--

These traits are a requirement for Me before any sub gets through the first set of hurdles---BDSM can always be added but as I have said--at the end of the day, when the latex is hung away---there are still people and lives that need to be dealt with, children to be raised, bills to be paid, family to deal with---if those traits don't exist, there is indeed no solid foundation for growth--

I am currently blessed, I believe I have found one who at last has those qualities in and out of the life---but it took a long search--through many some real, some pretenders, many do me's, many "lurkers"--

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


(in reply to pmyshkinp)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/2/2005 8:25:12 AM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		I concur in theory if not in detail.

It would be nice if everyone had honor and believed in respect but that just doesn't happen in this world. There will always be 'users' and 'takers' so everyone else needs to be aware and careful.

_____________________________

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly ! !

(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/5/2005 2:27:24 PM   
LadyKim


Posts: 191
Joined: 11/11/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you to all that posted on this thread. It was very interesting to see everyone's perspective.

(in reply to OscarHargraves)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/5/2005 3:28:04 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim

We claim that honor, respect, and trust are key components to a healthy bdsm M/s relationship; however, I wonder how many relationships really possess these qualities. I would love to hear from others on how they view the responsiblities of both roles.



~ Honour, Respect, Loyalty, Duty, Integrity, and Trust ~


I’ve lost track of people who have said that these are the foundations of a successful BDSM (inc. M/s, D/s and Gorean) relationships. I comment thus:

1. It should be the foundation of ALL relationships not just one sector of society.

2. It is not used as any form of foundation except for lip service when necessary and in the public spotlight for many.

There are people for whom Honour, Respect, Loyalty, Duty, Integrity, and Trust are part of their code of living. In some extreme cases they will accept Death before Dishonour. Where are such people? In all walks of life, Male and Female. Some you will find in the Military of all countries, Others in the Emergency Services (Ambulances/paramedics, Police and Fire Brigades), Nursing Staff and Medical Staff, Social Workers, prison Officers, Aid Workers, Religious Workers and the various Lifestyles. Certainly Gorean Lifestylers have this as their basis for being Gorean. Such codes are part of Martial Arts. These people I present to you as examples of where you may find the highest ideals with which to live, work and play. It (Honour, Respect, Loyalty, Duty, Integrity, and Trust) is not something you turn on (Ermmmmmmm “Edith, Fred and Julie have just pull up outside best be on our proper behaviour…….” ~ What a load of crap but common enough) and turn off according to the circumstances (“Hey Tony the new neighbours have arrived home looks like their car has carked it. Go on luv you might be able to flog that heap of ford shit in the back yard for a couple of hundred dollars. They look dumb enough….”). It (Honour, Respect, Loyalty, Duty, Integrity, and Trust) is something which you have engraved on your heart and soul .. It is what you are.

I rest my case.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/5/2005 11:18:00 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

talking about BDSM/Ds/Gor/MOUSE.


I hate going off topic, lol, but ....what is MOUSE? I have never heard that before.



LOL...... yep, like you. got no idea, and still waiting to find out myself.

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 4:16:56 AM   
CaptainsPet


Posts: 57
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

Two out of Three, isn't bad. Is it?

oh, you said Trust, I thought I read Lust.

One out of three isn't bad. Is it?

You always bust me up with your replies!

_____________________________

Whip me, beat me
make me cry.
Tie me up.
Make me fly.

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 5:17:15 AM   
DublinSwitch


Posts: 59
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		When people on this board talk about 'the lifestyle' they always go on and on about stuff like 'honour respect and trust'...so if your not in 'the lifestyle' does this mean you don't need 'honour respect and trust'? Would imagine thats news to the vast majority of the worlds population.

Reading the posts I often get the feeling that when people talk about this mystical and mythical 'lefstyle' they are kind of being snobby - ie we are in this 'lifestyle', therefore we are all honourable, trustful, honest yadda yadda yadda (except of course the people that are only involved in online stuff, invariably called fakers, wannabe's etc etc, which always strikes me as weird considering this is an online forum).

Talking about 'the lifestyle' seems a pretty weak way of defining oneself as part of something that is somehow hugely deep and meaningful. Last time I checked BDSM is NOT a philosophy or religion - this whole talk of it as a 'lifestyle' is positively creepy and makes it sound like a cult to me.

If you believe your whole life is somehow 'defined' by BDSM, well to be frank I think that you have a pretty empty life.

Having said that I agree that a relationship can be defined by BDSM.

And then we get this stuff about 'the code I live under'. Jesus, I can't believe people define themselves by some 'code'. I always think of a 'code' as being something that ye knights of olde lived under, back when people were smiting each other with swords, you were defined by who your parents were and life was pretty barbaric. In the modern world if you need some 'code' to tell you what is right or wrong I guess you have a pretty piss-poor ingrained common sense or morality.

End of rant lol

Cheers

DS


(in reply to CaptainsPet)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 7:16:36 AM   
LadyKim


Posts: 191
Joined: 11/11/2004
Status: offline 		The point of this topic was to discuss how someone that claims to want to be trusted to control another life demonstrates behavior that proves the person to be untrustworthy. However, I read posts from one person after another that pick up one sentence or group of words to branch off onto another topic in what appears to be an attempt to discredit the notion that being honorable, respectful, trustworthy, and a person of integrity isn't such a big deal.

Terms like 'we claim' and 'lifestyle' are generating some fairly passionate discussions. While I respect everyone's right to have and voice their opinion on a topic, it amazes me how many people miss the point of the discussion.

I agree that honor, respect, trust, loyalty, and integrity are ALL quality that are necessary in any relationship ...... be it D/s, M/s, vanilla, etc. I do not believe that people that participate in a BDSM relationship hold the exclusive rights to those traits because that is just flat out obsurd. HOWEVER, when one human puts him or her self in a position of wishing to take control of another or to take responsibility for what happens to another person, they better be someone that can be trusted with those tasks.

I also do NOT believe that everyone that participates in Domination/submission, Discipline/Bondage, Sadomasochism are people of honor, respect, trustworthiness, and integrity. Which is kind of why the topic was started. It would be a wonderful world if everyone possessed those traits, but we do not live in that world. Just because someone claims to have those traits doesn't mean they do or that they have a beginning knowledge of how to live by them. It is not just a dominant thing or a submissive thing (and yes, I believe subs should strive to have the same qualitites.......everyone should).

Ok........ I'm stepping off my soap box for a few minutes at least.

MzKim

(in reply to DublinSwitch)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 2:43:28 PM   
DeepWaters


Posts: 118
Joined: 4/16/2004
Status: offline 		An excellent post LadyKim...youve stated the heart of the matter...authority and responsibility must go hand in hand in any power exchange relationship..and no one should place their trust and their life in the hands of someone who is still immature.

thanks
DeepWaters


(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 5:44:24 PM   
B1gbear


Posts: 81
Joined: 5/7/2004
Status: offline 		This isn't so complicated. In case any of you out there don't realize it yet, a power exchange relationship is the most difficult type of relationship to make work successfully over any amout of time. Especially 24/7. For it to work successfully it must be built on honesty, trust, integrity, loyalty, etc.

Now, first off, there are far more new people entering this lifestyle every day than there are people who have been it it long enough to teach anyone else the values and Do's and Don't of how to be a good Dominant or submissive. A huge percentage have to learn it on their own by reading or just plain guessing. If they do get advice from anyone else they have to guess if that person is telling them right or not. What does that mean? It means slowly but surely they bring vanilla values with them to this lifestyle, and slowly but surely those confused values tend to overshadow what we all expect from this lifestyle in regards to the values we think it should be based on. Now add to that how quickly things like honor, integrity, trust, honesty, are being tossed aside in this 'all for me' world we live in.

Don't expect miricles, just strive to find and preserve those values we hold so dear and try not to be too discouraged or disappointed when others don't put the same importance on those values as we do. Likewise, celebrate and take comfort when you find someone that does put the same importance on the mentioned value system. We search for a rare thing in the 21st century. See it as that and rejoice when you find it.

~Just One Dominant's opinion

(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 8:45:53 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim
When I said 'we claim', it was a generalization that I agree does not apply to everyone.......... obviously. What separates BDSM SadoMasochism from the clinical definitions of the words Sadist and Masochist are the three little words of Safe Sane Consentual.

Forgive me for getting so long back to this - I have been away... and, have not read the entire thread -

But, might I suggest that what seperates us "normal Perverts" from the great unwashed insane and being clinically defined as sadists, masochists, etc... is the fact that we *unlike they under the edict of definition* do not have a paraphilia.... in other words, we do not meet the definition for that defininition.

SSC is not what seperates us from the apes... it is what makes us appear as sane as other people... when in reality, there are no guarantees..

quote:

Submissives 'trust' the dominant will not do permanent damage to them, and dominants 'trust' the submissive will not haul them up on assault and battery charges. Hopefully, people would not play with someone that they do not respect, trust, or believe to be honorable. Otherwise, they are asking to be hurt (no matter what side of the whip they are on).


Some of us play with people we do not really know - and, on reputation alone!! (Wonder how that pans out with SSC)

quote:

In a portion of my diatribe, I made mention of how some submissives believe they have to do whatever anyone that claims the title of Dom says, and someone pointed out (correctly) that this is normally true of newbies.


It is also true of some of the insane, Marines, certain cult members, mafia capos, state civil service workers, and a host of other people who are health in all other ways.

quote:

It is true that the longer someone is in the lifestyle, they learn what is and is not acceptable and become more discerning.


I think it also comes with maturity... As shocking as it might sound, some people do not need to be coddled at every turn.

quote:

The reason I used the newbie mentality is because it is the newbies I worry about. Those of us that have been in it a while should know the warning signs and pay heed to them, but the new people getting involved are still feeling their way through it. We all had to endure it, true.......


Um - ok... well some of us apparently did.

quote:

...and it is part of what guides the directions we take as we continue in the lifestyle. I do understand that. However, I also believe it is the responsiblity of the people that have been in it a while to help those just getting started.


I assist by telling people they are absolutely crazy to be involved with Dominant X, because he is a 'cyber idiot'.... I suppose that is something.

quote:

I also think it is the responsibility of those that know better to point out where short comings are.

I know I am not responsible for everyone else's actions, but my sense of honor, responsibility, and integrity push me to call a spade a spade..... and if the spade is in an idiot's hands get it out before he/she hurts someone.


Good luck with that... I warn people... but, ultimately they are responsible for their own lives and foibles.

quote:

We all participate in this lifestyle the way that works best for us. But there are some rules that apply no matter how you choose to engage in whatever activity. SAFE, SANE, and CONSENTUAL....... it must always be all three.p


I do not agree and state uncatagorically that I apparently do not belong to the same lifestyle, as no one has ever let me know when this vote took place... so, I feel quite disinfranchised and dirty.

Next thing you know, submissives will have some sort of rights, and dominants will be expected to pledge to some vague and insipid creed about honor, loyalty, trust, et al. that does not mean anything when considered with an intelligent eye.

quote:

(Otherwise, it's illegal! And a clinical definition of a psychiatric disorder!!)


Darling - 9/10ths of WIITWD is illegal in 3/4's of the states... and, you definitively need to revisit the DSM.

Nothing about the mantra SSC makes people more sane, what we do less illegal, or would protect us from things such as lawyers, the police, or errant psychiatrists.

quote:

However, without honesty....... there is nothing safe, sane or truly consentual occuring because there is deception.


Yes, and a day is not a day without the great taste of Florida Orange Juice, and everybody loves Jello, and it all tastes better with Blue Bonnet on it... yup.... they are all great jingoisms...

~J


_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 8:49:37 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
quote:

talking about BDSM/Ds/Gor/MOUSE.

I hate going off topic, lol, but ....what is MOUSE? I have never heard that before.

LOL...... yep, like you. got no idea, and still waiting to find out myself.


For those of you who are old enough to remember the acronym, please sing along:

"Who's the leader of the band that's made for you and me?

M.I.C.K.E.Y - - - M.O.U.S.E.!"


This is my short-hand way of stating: "...and, all the other silly words and acronyms you might think of"
~J


_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to truesub4u)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 8:54:14 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		IB -

I agree with you in a lot of ways... but until some self style Gorean jumps in front of a bullet to save the poor maligned kajira... I am not "holding these truths to be entirely self evident..."



~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

There are people for whom Honour, Respect, Loyalty, Duty, Integrity, and Trust are part of their code of living. In some extreme cases they will accept Death before Dishonour. Where are such people? In all walks of life, Male and Female. Some you will find in the Military of all countries, Others in the Emergency Services (Ambulances/paramedics, Police and Fire Brigades), Nursing Staff and Medical Staff, Social Workers, prison Officers, Aid Workers, Religious Workers and the various Lifestyles. Certainly Gorean Lifestylers have this as their basis for being Gorean.



_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 10:09:44 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

For those of you who are old enough to remember the acronym, please sing along:

"Who's the leader of the band that's made for you and me?

M.I.C.K.E.Y - - - M.O.U.S.E.!"


LMAO ok ok

Someone slap me with the stupid stick please

Yes, I am old enough to remember the Mickey Mouse Club lol

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/6/2005 10:13:01 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:


I know I am not responsible for everyone else's actions, but my sense of honor, responsibility, and integrity push me to call a spade a spade..... and if the spade is in an idiot's hands get it out before he/she hurts someone.

We all participate in this lifestyle the way that works best for us. But there are some rules that apply no matter how you choose to engage in whatever activity. SAFE, SANE, and CONSENTUAL....... it must always be all three. (Otherwise, it's illegal! And a clinical definition of a psychiatric disorder!!) However, without honesty....... there is nothing safe, sane or truly consentual occuring because there is deception.




But you didn't call a spade a spade. You said that just about every tool in the shed is a spade--without every having so much as laid eyes on most of them.

As for: "no matter how you choose to engage in whatever activity. SAFE, SANE, and CONSENTUAL....... it must always be all three. (Otherwise, it's illegal! And a clinical definition of a psychiatric disorder!!) "

... you aren't calling a spade a spade here either. A lot of what most of us do is illegal irrespective of what catchy slogans we favor. To paraphrase and old song: "Your three-sided yin-yang button won't get you into heaven any more," nor will it keep you out of jail.

And since even with full consent some of the behaviors you favor can land you and your partner in jail, how safe are they? Some people view the whole cult of SSC as a sweet little placebo to feed the unwary. But I suppose your kink is better than their kink.

Your psychiatric evaluation is highly debatable but in any case medical history is full of behaviors labelled as wrong or sick by "experts" who are busy crushing one population for the benefit of another.

You're pissed at some guy. That's cool. Maybe you should vent at him. Or hell, maybe you should keep up the careless negtive generalizations. Who do you want to attack next? Jews? Arabs? Gays? Blacks?

I don't see how it is anything less than dishonorable and irresponsible to make this kind of broad attack against a diverse population.



We see the world not as it is but as we are.


(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/7/2005 11:42:41 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

People that are selfish, lazy, and have no life outside of the one they create for themselves on the internet. They have move one woman after another into their home while continuing their quest in the belief that 'he/she with the most subs wins'.


I know for me it's the selfishness that really brings me down in a relationship. I know that when I'm giving my 110 percent, busting my ass to make my partner feel secure, etc., and I see them still being selfish, it really burns me and causes me to partially withdraw.

It's tough sometimes, but I really think both need to be as proactive with their love as possible. And it's the little things that sometimes count the most. They make a huge difference, and many miss out on the big picture when comes to the little things. In some ways, I liken it to the person who gets stuck in a mail-room, completing menial tasks. Some have the ambition/incentive to continually rise up and think of ways that will take them to the next level, while others just don't.

quote:

All too often submissives believe that they must surrender to whomever claim the title Dom. They find themselves drawn to confidence and the control.


The confidence is an attractive quality in the beginning, but selflessness, sensitivity and sensuality are what keep it going for me.


- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 12/7/2005 11:52:21 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to LadyKim)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/7/2005 12:06:19 PM   
JalisMaster


Posts: 35
Joined: 11/13/2005
Status: offline 		wrote this for jali way back when she asked me my definition of honor.. with excerpts from a movie ..
What is Honor?

Does the word make you think of knights in shiney armor?...chivoulrous and honorable?...hollywood images more than likely...(Braveheart might be a better portrayal ..)In the movie there is a scene in which the father is asked by his son, "What is honor?" He responds, "Honor is something no one can give you … and no one can take away. It is a man's gift to himself."

When it comes to D/s and those involved in the lifestyle... I've seen alot of people use the word "honor".. I think it's unfortunate that many of the people involved today don't understand what that word really means... The term has its roots in the word "honesty" or "integrity"... Honor is "truth"...

To me... honor is important and paramount in any relationship, not just D/s... Good character is admired because of the difficulty that it takes to maintain....Your true strength and discipline can be measured by your character. While you may never be perfect... it is the lifelong struggle to be the best that you can be that matters...If you can look at yourself and say...I am honest, and I try to be honorable in all that I do....you will be far happier and complete...

Honorable means that you must be honest and truthful with yourself... There is always something to be learned from the things you are afraid of, or want to avoid... To be honorable we need to face the things we fear and the things we don't want to see... The most fearful things we don't want to face are those things that we dislike in ourselves... lack of honesty, brashfulness,decietfulness, whatever... Many of us refuse to acknowledge the existence of these traits in ourselves. These characteristics... as bad and as undesirable as they are... are part of us and are best dealt with when you admit that you have them...

When we truthfully deal with those aspects about ourselves... we can better accept the things that truly compliment our character... without being boastful or self indulgant... If we are honest with our own character flaws and make the painstaking effort to make these flaws into good qualities... we can enjoy who we are and won't need to prove ourselves...

Facing our dark sides takes courage and what results is self confidence...and when you take that into a D/s relationship...no matter if you are dominant or submissive...you bring one of the most important aspects of a healthy relationship in with you...

Being honorable isn't measured by what anyone else thinks of you...it's not about how knowledgable you are about D/s practices or terminology...it's not about how "good" you look in your chosen role...

It may be that when you are truly honorable... you discover that you hold something that is more precious than anyones opinion of you or how you feel about that... You can't barter or purchase or fake honor... It comes with hard work... pain of self admission... and extreme effort...

It's not to be compromised... True honor makes you feel good inside... It's nearly private... because only you know if you really can say.... I am honorable...


< Message edited by JalisMaster -- 12/7/2005 12:25:31 PM >

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/7/2005 12:27:38 PM   
slavetobetrained


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline 		if a proclaimed "Master" continually hurts and lies to his slave without care or remorse, that "Master" in my eyes has never respected, cared, loved his slave, only used her for His own gain. where is the honor, respect, trust and integrity in that???

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Honor, respect, and trust .... integrity - 12/7/2005 12:31:58 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavetobetrained
if a proclaimed "Master" continually hurts and lies to his slave without care or remorse, that "Master" in my eyes has never respected, cared, loved his slave, only used her for His own gain. where is the honor, respect, trust and integrity in that???

Hmmmmm well the lying part and lack of respect is bad.

The rest however is perfectly acceptable.

(in reply to slavetobetrained)
Profile   Post #: 40
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