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RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 7:32:51 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		Weeeeellllllllll.... I recently had this problem. Super smart sub--well, very quick although prone to careless errors, mouthed off all the damned time and never realized it because she was not equating 'submissive' with conversational deference. In most other ways she was putting a real and appreciated effort into following my rules, but my god could she snap out some asinine and insulting statements off the cuff. I couldn't spend 24 hours a day with my foot up her ass, because that would be fun for neither of us; so I had to pick my battles. Unfortunately, that didn't really work either, and in retrospect it's clear why.

In an after action review, my answer was to set aside a definite, confirmed block of time on a regular basis for her to speak her mind. During that time, the rule is that there will be no use of the phrase "Because I'm your Master" OR "Whatever pleases you"; all topics will be discussed on their merits for the benefit of the group as a whole, and all opinions shared if they're asked for or if the person wants to share.  Now, the reasoning behind this is somewhat subtle, so hear me out.

Here's the big problem with controlling a smart sub. If they're more right than the average person, it does not matter how submissive they are, they'll want to be heard. The desire to be recognized for their mental contributions is tied to their desire to serve, and if they feel stymied in conversation, then that directly affects the depth of their submission.

Now me, I am a really smart fucking bastard. And I hate to be argued with when I set my foot down, because I've spent my life generally dealing with the mess left after someone didn't listen to me. (Probably wasn't listened to because of the, y'know, fact that I used to come across as so egotistical I had my own gravity field. I've toned it down some as I've gotten older. No, really, I swear it's true. ^_^) I also don't as a general rule like to be snapped at, which when a girl is thinking really fast is going to occasionally happen even if she doesn't feel the least bit rebellious towards me. Both of those are traits I want to train out of my subs.

But to insist that they watch their mouths 24/7 when they never had to before? That is like locking them in an unventilated box filled with Los Angeles smog. Can't breath in that, and have a hard time seeing clearly too. So the idea is to flip that on its head: to give unlimited privileges to speak their minds every day, but to have patience and wait for the right time.

Then, the second part of the strategy is to avoid contradicting the dynamic. Don't micromanage and tell them to watch their mouths every ten minutes, of course, but more importantly, don't block the submissive from controlling herself the rest of the time. Don't blur those lines for her, and don't push too hard either; just let her get comfortable with the idea. Most subs are far more demanding of themselves than most M's will ever really be; all you have to do is present the situation in such a way that being listened to is recognized for the privilege that it is, something that is a lesson everyone could use now and then, and then sit back and enjoy as she hands you the mastery of her mouth for that time that it belongs to you. That's the theory, anyway. Haven't tried it yet.

If it works I'm pretty much going to apply this to all my future relationships, because it's just a good idea in general. But for the painfully smart subs having self-control issues, it might be the difference between success and failure.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to MrDW)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 7:45:52 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Paradox, that wouldn't have worked for me. In the beginning I didn't have enough history with him to be able to trust his judgment. Once I did, I didn't have to argue with him because he had shown me through his past choices that he would almost always make the best one. It came down to just needing time.

Beyond that, if you require conversational deference in your relationships, do you tell possible partners that in the beginning? It isn't universal. Because some of us just would pass you by since it isn't our thing. I wasn't interested in someone who would need to change me that much, I was looking for someone who liked how I spoke and thought. To me, a partner who demands to be deferred to all the time comes across as insecure and needing to be coddled. That's my perception and I'm not compatible with those types.

Some people like having conversational protocols and others don't. It's something to discuss first, not spring on a person later in the relationship.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to DMFParadox)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 11:03:58 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		"Controlling my Slave"

Interesting thing about control is that it ceases to exist when applied to another person. You can Dictate thier actions and even thier demeanor but because of free will actually controlling the person is an illusion.

I Control myself and how I react to situations (Well I try, I fall short from time to time) I Control the surroundings that I am able to control. What order my home is in, what color the bath towles are. I Control the people that I let into my life. This being said the control I exert over my slave is only what my slave is willing to deal with both of us are aware that she knows where the door is and is free to leave should she choose to.

My Goal as a Dominant is to exert my will over her in such a way that the knowledge of not conforming to my will ending in her leaving or being asked to leave is more unacceptable to her than what it is I am expecting of her.

My Point is that if your girl is exerting control over you then you are letting her. You have two choices, you can continue to let her and live with it, or you can show her that that behaviour is not acceptable and when she does it it removes her from you. As simple as possible the idea is Obey or Leave. Either she will do as you expect and to the letter without balking or she can leave. Hopefully you will have made it more painfull to leave you then to do as you ask.

Contol is an Illusion, you only have it because she gives it to you.

As Always

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 12:11:58 PM   
VivaciousSub


Posts: 446
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Paradox, that wouldn't have worked for me. In the beginning I didn't have enough history with him to be able to trust his judgment. Once I did, I didn't have to argue with him because he had shown me through his past choices that he would almost always make the best one. It came down to just needing time.

Beyond that, if you require conversational deference in your relationships, do you tell possible partners that in the beginning? It isn't universal. Because some of us just would pass you by since it isn't our thing. I wasn't interested in someone who would need to change me that much, I was looking for someone who liked how I spoke and thought. To me, a partner who demands to be deferred to all the time comes across as insecure and needing to be coddled. That's my perception and I'm not compatible with those types.

Some people like having conversational protocols and others don't. It's something to discuss first, not spring on a person later in the relationship.


I was in a situation where conversational protocols got sprung on me, and I'm the type that's never had to watch her mouth before either. Needless to say, it didn't go well.

I also need to be able to trust someone's judgment before I'll defer to them on a consistent basis and Des, as you noticed, that takes time and history. I didn't have either in the prior relationship and frankly the more time I spent around him, the less interested I got in watching my mouth - not because I couldn't respect his opinion, but because he always delivered it with this tone of "and I am ALWAYS right...and if you don't agree with me, you're being judgmental!". It was enormously insulting. It was like he couldn't ever admit that someone else might have a point. So yes, he did come off as being terribly insecure.

I'm in a relationship now that couldn't be more different, and He has no problem getting me to watch my mouth, no protocols necessary. Amazing what a little gentleness and patience will bring out in the most intractable of us.




_____________________________

9.8m/s^2 + VivaciousSub + ground = ouchx10^9th

To yield readily--easily--to the persuasion of a friend is no merit.... To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either. ~ Pride and Prejudice

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 12:30:00 PM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		Sheesh between Paradox and Des I am going to try and make one answer to both excellent posts as well as to the OP.

One thing that isn't figured into this equation so it seems to me, is the fact that SHE may not be getting what she needs. Zingers can be a defensive method but they can also be used as a goad, so can disobedience.

Doms can get lazy, once they have conquered they expect you to stay conquered and it can rapidly deteriorate to the occasional Saturday night spanking once a month with a kneel at my feet and bring me a beer attitude the rest of the time. Real life can easily override all D/s dynamics and the easy stuff is all that is a part of the every day. Cook, Clean, Laundry, Beer, Kneel, BJ..Night. Subs, Sams and Slaves need more than that otherwise, it's just a vanilla relationship with a tinge of kink.

Yes, with time Master may prove that his judgment is sound. So can She. (EG) Master ain't always right, sometimes they are just too stubborn to admit they are wrong or don't have all the information. If She doesn't feel heard or feels like what she has to say is devalued, then eventually you both lose. Des, for him to be right he needs to hear what you have to say as well..respectfully perhaps (Master is used to my verbal jousting and enjoys it as it keeps him sharp). If all he wanted was a yes Sub, he could have gotten a Labrador retriever or Cocker Spaniel. He wanted a vibrant person, with opinions and views of their own.

MrDW..sit down and analyze with her why she does things that requires you to punish her. What is she missing in the dynamic that requires her to act out? She may have trouble putting it into words, so be patient, ask her to write it out, or find a song that says what she is trying to say...not everyone is good at asking for what they need and want, but without getting it, the relationship languishes and can die. Relationships are hard work, Vanilla or Kinked, they take a lot of effort if they are to work. Don't take anything for granted..if you don't put in the effort regularly, you won't get anything back.

poenkitten

(in reply to DMFParadox)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 12:51:45 PM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		If this girl is as smart as you claim she is then there is a communication problem or maybe she is seeking punishment...WE have a very simple remedy here for those kind of problems,a chalk board with a circle drawn on it and you take her by the hair and place her nose square in the circle and let her remain there until she recognizes the problem you have with her and then have her write what you expect from her and why she refuses to comply with your wishes,A smart sub will soon find her way to becoming a good one, our she will spend alot of time becoming friends with that damm chalk board...make sure the circle is high enough so she must get up on her toes a bit, it works for us...,....bounty

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 2:41:52 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Unless they have been trained using the techniques of Internal Enslavement.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Contol is an Illusion, you only have it because she gives it to you.

As Always

Steel


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 2:46:35 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Unless they have been trained using the techniques of Internal Enslavement.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Contol is an Illusion, you only have it because she gives it to you.

As Always

Steel



The Paradox there is what came first the internal slavery or the decision to practice it?

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 2:56:32 PM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Sounds like a real party to me. If you don't like spanking, what do you do?

(in reply to MrDW)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 3:21:58 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Dominance comes from within you, if you're not managing, you're not managing. Sorry, but this sounds a bit like the guy looking for driving lessons after he crashed the car. It happens - someone you can't dominate. You move on.

(in reply to MrDW)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 3:56:22 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

Sounds like a real party to me. If you don't like spanking, what do you do?


GOOD girls get spankings.
BAD girls get ignored.

just saying

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to tweedydaddy)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 4:52:44 PM   
sailorfrank


Posts: 127
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline 		  And in such a simple saying....Lies Great advice!


Most of all assert yourself over her to rise over her, your attitude must be greater than hers at all times!  Allow no eye contact at all from her.  Isolate her when shes bad bound, blindfolded as well as ear plugs and a dark room for a extended time. After awhile she will hate that and will be better at being submissive.   You are new and must learn more yourself. So good luck with that.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 5:44:14 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Some are compelled by their nature to be what they are. I see choice as an active decision, not responded to a primal part of a persons being.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Unless they have been trained using the techniques of Internal Enslavement.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Contol is an Illusion, you only have it because she gives it to you.

As Always

Steel



The Paradox there is what came first the internal slavery or the decision to practice it?

Steel


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 6:17:32 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

Sounds like a real party to me. If you don't like spanking, what do you do?


GOOD girls get spankings.
BAD girls get ignored.

just saying


So true.  LOL.  To be crudely, accurately, blunt...NFS. 
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 7:15:29 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDW

... does anyone have any advice?

Start with some basics.

Have you asked her what she expects?  What "dominance" means to her?  Tried having her write a five paragraph essay on it?  Submissives vary in their expectations, desires and definitions... what is domination to one might be abuse to another... do you know what she expects?  Here's some food for thought...

I have known submissives (used here in a generic and all inclusive sense, including the various permutations of submissives and slaves) who needed little more than the opportunity to serve, simple direction on what was expected of them, direction on how to be pleasing, who tended to take a lot of initiative in finding ways to be pleasing and this was all they expected.

I have also known submissives who expected rigid discipline, who wanted boundaries to not only be set but actively enforced... they wanted to feel dominated in a very tangible way.  They pushed and expected the dominant to push back when they did so.

Each is submissive in their own way, but each has very different expectations and behaviors.  A dominant accustomed to the first type would have great difficulty with the second example.  Conversely a dominant used to the second type might find the first boring.  To each their own.  Its not about who's right.. but only who's suited for whom.

Second bit of advice... what sort of dominant are you?  Ever given that consideration?  Ever thought about exactly what sort of lifestyle you seek?  Do you want a submissive who constantly challenges you... and if so in what ways?  Do you want one that meekly surrenders without a fuss?  Something inbetween?  Just as submissives come in different flavors, so do dominants.  Some love to dish out punishments, others dislike having to do so at all.  Some enjoy lots of protocol, others like things very informal.  What are your preferences?  Have you articulated those preferences to yourself?  Have you spelled them out clearly to her?

Assuming at some point you have, or will, sorted out exactly what your preferences are and have or will communicate them to her in clear language; have you considered how you will react if and when she doesn't conform?  Whether you call it punishment or discipline or something else... when her behavior doesn't match what you expect you need to take steps to modify her behavior, to correct it.  You apparently don't like anything physically painful but are okay with something mentally painful (gee... no hypocrisy there...).  If you don't want to inflict pain, then you can try taking something away.  When her behavior fails to conform to your established expectations, take away a privilege, take away a freedom, take away something she values until her behavior changes.  That's exerting control.  If she smokes, take away her cigarettes.  If she loves to read, take away her books.  If she has a chocolate addiction, no more chocolates.  When her behavior changes, return whatever you took away.  You are the dominant... you giveth and you taketh away...

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MrDW)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 7:56:30 PM   
ISOHOH49


Posts: 28
Joined: 10/20/2007
Status: offline 		By no account am I a Master or a own slave, but this is my 2 cent.



My girl is, I feel, somewhat confused about what she actually wants and I will talk to her about that; she is more submissive than slave. I personally do not want to control (or even punish) her, but when I do ask her to "please me", she only asks what is it that I want and almost refuses to budge. I like the independant thought because she is very intelligent (somewhat more than myself but I am far from stupid) and I feel that she should use that to shine through


It seem that you are the one confused here, It seem that you do not want to be a Master or a Dom, It seem that she want to be brat and you are more of a Top.  That this is  more for fun and games and role play than as a life style.  And in all fairness that is find if that is what the 2 of you want.  Not everyone want this as a lifestyle.  But this site is more to this being a way of life than play.

I was a brat for a very long time until my desire grew. I had to learn that a Master/Dom expected their slave/sub to obey them. And not becaue they will be punished.  Most M/D do not like to punish there s/s.  The slave/sub agree to obey and they expect her/him to live up to their word.

But as a brat I did  not obey  him just so that he could react and punish me. It was all fun and game for me.  But the  of a Dom he became, will he soon grew tried of game.

I think that the 2 of you need to sit down an define what both of you want this relationship to look like. Not what you think it should look like base on others or words like Master/Dom, slave/sub.

just my 2 cent

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 10:09:11 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Paradox, that wouldn't have worked for me. In the beginning I didn't have enough history with him to be able to trust his judgment. Once I did, I didn't have to argue with him because he had shown me through his past choices that he would almost always make the best one. It came down to just needing time.

Beyond that, if you require conversational deference in your relationships, do you tell possible partners that in the beginning? It isn't universal. Because some of us just would pass you by since it isn't our thing. I wasn't interested in someone who would need to change me that much, I was looking for someone who liked how I spoke and thought. To me, a partner who demands to be deferred to all the time comes across as insecure and needing to be coddled. That's my perception and I'm not compatible with those types.

Some people like having conversational protocols and others don't. It's something to discuss first, not spring on a person later in the relationship.


I like what BlackPhx had to say back to this. Ditto her.



_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 10:15:08 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VivaciousSub

I didn't have either in the prior relationship and frankly the more time I spent around him, the less interested I got in watching my mouth - not because I couldn't respect his opinion, but because he always delivered it with this tone of "and I am ALWAYS right...and if you don't agree with me, you're being judgmental!".



That's definitely the thing to watch out for, although if you're hearing that in someone else, you should look hard for the same trait in yourself. Judging by your posts so far, I wouldn't be surprised if you had the exact same tone of voice.

As for your new guy, congratulations. May all subs be so lucky as to find someone that makes them comfortable in submission.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to VivaciousSub)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/29/2008 10:22:18 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Most of all assert yourself over her to rise over her, your attitude must be greater than hers at all times!


Actually, your capacities (in some sense or other) also need to be greater than hers.  Otherwise, she'll see through it, and it's all a big silly game.

Are you smarter than her, OP?  And if not, what do you have to offer?  Greater strength of will?  Greater....  what? 

Ground it in that, whatever it may be.

--sravaka

edited to add-- I sort of like DMFParadox's solution


< Message edited by sravaka -- 9/29/2008 10:24:03 PM >

_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to sailorfrank)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Controlling my Slave - 9/30/2008 6:35:01 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDW

I am new to being a master and my slave is slightly more experianced than I. In regular life she is a strong woman and this shines through when I am trying to assert myself. I am have a dominant character but I am not really sure what I can say or do to keep more control.

I would like to know if anyone has some good advice on making some progress in asserting dominance and punishing my slave. I am not at all into hurting my slave so I need more mental punishments. The only real one I have so far is making her sit on a mat by the bed for a predetermined period of time (usually until I have explained why she is there). Other than more extreme measures - to me extreme - does anyone have any advice?



It sounds to me like you may be over your head in this. You say her strength "shines through" when you are trying to assert yourself. In your own words, this is really the crux of the problem—and it's a big problem shared by both parties. As for any further advice, it's really impossible to give without knowing so much more information. It is perhaps suffice to say that if you're looking to an online message board for management help in dealing with your "slave", you're doomed.

Either put the collar on your own neck and hand her the keys or dismiss her and reflect upon where you went wrong. Like most things, the fault can be found if you retrace your steps back to the very beginning—right to your decision making process in taking her in.





< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 9/30/2008 6:48:28 AM >

(in reply to MrDW)
Profile   Post #: 40
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