RE: right all along?

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LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 4:19:28 AM)
Yes you're right; Europe's wealth is derived entirely from such imperial adventures - fostered incidentally by the same attitude you now espouse for the economy it seems - that to the victors go the spoils, and the weak must perish. That my family worked as virtual slaves through this thing called the industrial revolution, and prior to that worked as actual slaves on the land, has of course nothing to do with the wealth attained. I am only here now, free to type on a message board during working hours because I own the business for which I work - something made possible for the descendant of slaves by the very same concerns for social justice which your philosophy seems to reject. E

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 4:22:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni My father ran an excellent business.You compare apples to oranges. There are states with bigger economies than NZ. For a huge economy, a degree of protections for home based goods and services is needed, else the nation becomes essentially a slave to its suppliers. As far as I am concerned go run your mouth about the US economy elsewhere. Complete rubbish. Your economy is currently tanking due to such thinking. You have an environment where no-one accepts risk, all producers expect a hand-out from the taxpayer, and protection from competitors. Our economy was like that once. To a certain extent you are insulated from international trends as you don't rely on export trade to the extent we do. But the lesson is still there. The funny thing in all this is the USA has gone around the world lecturing everyone on how it is done, they've accepted the advice, and been successful at it. Then when it becomes apparent we are going to be better at it than the USA, they cry foul and run and hide. Marvellous. I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail. Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 4:34:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Yes you're right; Europe's wealth is derived entirely from such imperial adventures - fostered incidentally by the same attitude you now espouse for the economy it seems - that to the victors go the spoils, and the weak must perish. That my family worked as virtual slaves through this thing called the industrial revolution, and prior to that worked as actual slaves on the land, has of course nothing to do with the wealth attained. I am only here now, free to type on a message board during working hours because I own the business for which I work - something made possible for the descendant of slaves by the very same concerns for social justice which your philosophy seems to reject. E You're not making any sense. You get to type on your keyboard because Europe went and stole what it wanted, when it wanted. Now they want to lock it all up when those who had it stolen from them, want to win it all back fair and square - no theft involved. The way I see it, that makes Europe a thief twice, the first time using armed robbery, the second time by refusing to allow the transfer of wealth back. Like a thief and his receiver, both go to jail.

LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 4:45:15 AM)
Well. I'll tell you what Paul, right here and now I'm willing to repay every last penny my family stole, and for good measure every last penny my family got from the slave trade too - cant say fairer than that eh? I estimate I'll be down about 0p. Please dont confuse - as so many do - the ordinary English people with those who happened to be in control of our country for several centuries. Anything I have and my family has, we worked for it and risked life and limb to get it from those who happened to be in control of our country - and one foot wrong and we lose the lot, because it isnt a lot that we have. Incidentally, if Europe is collectively guilty as you say, and reparations are due, then shouldnt you be on the next flight out of NZ so as to yield your ill-gotten country to those from whom you stole it? E

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 4:48:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail. Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you. Stop making excuses for your fathers failure in business. The taxpayer doesn't owe him a living. He failed because he wasn't good at his job. What I know about the US economy is from doing business with it and competing with it in third markets. US business is slow to adjust, is pricey, their people are generally ignorant of the outside world, and can't do simple things like think in metric measurements. But what they make is usually solid, if unimaginative. That's it right there really. The more subsidies, bailout packages, and goodness knows what, the more that situation will prevail. The problem with the USA is it is over regulated, has complex systems, is rife with vested interest groups wanting their wedge, lacks productivity as a result, and is standing still ( going backwards ). More of the same will only make matters worse. The USA will end up a socialist shithole like Europe if they're not careful. The only thing currently keeping the USA's head above water is that 20% earning 80% of the revenue. But that 20% is fast losing patience and getting ready to ditch. The crash will be bigger than anything seen in the last few days. It is a disaster that can be averted by doing the sensible thing; reduce the size of government, lower taxes for the rich and business, maybe eliminate all taxes for business, eliminate all tariffs, simplify regulations and offer few if any government safety blankets.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 4:58:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Anything I have and my family has, we worked for it and risked life and limb to get it from those who happened to be in control of our country - and one foot wrong and we lose the lot, because it isnt a lot that we have. You, that is your forebears, profited from the theft. Resources, along with such things as gems looted from the temples in India, were carted back to your shores, where they were used to invest in factories that employed you. Your employment was the direct result of someone else being a victim, which makes you complicit. So pay up, by buying Chinese and Indian goods in preference to anything made in Europe. It is your duty. quote: Incidentally, if Europe is collectively guilty as you say, and reparations are due, then shouldnt you be on the next flight out of NZ so as to yield your ill-gotten country to those from whom you stole it? I was born in NZ. But you're right, the Crown did some stealing here, and we, that is the NZ taxpayer who had no part of the theft by Britain, are compensating the victims. Unlike Europe, who refuse to return the loot.

LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 5:09:27 AM)
No Paul - this is where you're not making any sense. On the one hand you seem to promote the virtue of "survival of the fittest, the weak must perish, to the victors go the spoils", but on the other hand you seem to have a problem with the fact that for a long time and even now, Europe has been the fittest, has caused the weak to perish and has acquired the spoils. But then its more confused in that you dont seem to see any need for social justice whatever, but then insist that Europe should yield its spoils to those from whom it apparently "stole" them. The paradox is, if we followed your philosophy on how to do business, we should have no concern whatsoever for those whom we are able to exploit, should exploit them mercilessly and sod those who lose out - but on the other hand you seem to be saying that having done that in the past is how we got to where we are now and that was wrong. So which is it? Unlimited free market economy Limited free market economy with social justice Totally controlled economy with unlimited social justice or, some other variation? E

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 6:17:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail. Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you. Stop making excuses for your fathers failure in business. The taxpayer doesn't owe him a living. He failed because he wasn't good at his job. What I know about the US economy is from doing business with it and competing with it in third markets. US business is slow to adjust, is pricey, their people are generally ignorant of the outside world, and can't do simple things like think in metric measurements. But what they make is usually solid, if unimaginative. That's it right there really. The more subsidies, bailout packages, and goodness knows what, the more that situation will prevail. The problem with the USA is it is over regulated, has complex systems, is rife with vested interest groups wanting their wedge, lacks productivity as a result, and is standing still ( going backwards ). More of the same will only make matters worse. The USA will end up a socialist shithole like Europe if they're not careful. The only thing currently keeping the USA's head above water is that 20% earning 80% of the revenue. But that 20% is fast losing patience and getting ready to ditch. The crash will be bigger than anything seen in the last few days. It is a disaster that can be averted by doing the sensible thing; reduce the size of government, lower taxes for the rich and business, maybe eliminate all taxes for business, eliminate all tariffs, simplify regulations and offer few if any government safety blankets. Come to the US you kiwi f**k and tell my Dad he was a failure. I dare you.

Musicmystery -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 6:30:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery FDIC insurance protects depositors, not the banks--the banks could still go bust, but their customers won't lose their money. That's my point. Depositors should not be protected. They should learn that if they deposit their money in the wrong place, they'll lose it. On the other side of the coin, the banks know they're not accountable to their depositors as they're covered, so the banks make even more reckless decisions. The lesson is risk aversion. Both depositors and banks have to learn a healthy dose of it. The American banking environment is overly complicated. They need to be able to go through a phase of consolidation, leaving maybe no more than a dozen banks doing the business for 80% of clients. The current set-up is unstable and the current crisis if rescued in current form, will be revisited again in a few years time. It's like the guy at the race track deciding to double up when he lost on the last race. Without FDIC, we'd be having runs on the banks, just as in the early 20th century. People would hoard instead of invest, to the detriment of themselves and the economy. They'd be no money to loan--and no checking accounts--do we then drive to the corporate headquarters to pay our bills each month? Nor could we buy a money order--no institution from which to buy it. The consolidation you describe has already happened much earlier than this. We DO have a handful of banks----Morgan/Chase and Citibank alone carry the bulk of the business. And others---WalMu and Wachovia---are now no more.

kdsub -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 8:24:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz I do get it but you don't. The market is a global one. You don't have a monoply on innovation, invention or productivity. If you go down an isolationist path, you'll end up without a pot to piss in. Thankfully the boffins who run things in the USA realise this and don't listen to your kind of advice. Problem is though, the inefficiencies have become so entrenched, getting the US economy back on track is going to be a monumental undertaking. They'll likely fail trying. The oil you speak of would simply be diverted to China, Korea and Japan. The price would drop, and they'd produce goods even cheaper than they are now, and you'd be left with no oil, and an alternative energy sector that is unproven, at best unreliable, and at worst defunct. The USA's moment in the spotlight has come to an end. It ended on the back of excessive taxation and regulation, subsidies and protectionism, the distortionary effects of which ensured it couldn't compete globally. In a nutshell, the American worker is overpaid and under-productive, businesses do not have to face the effects of making bad choices, its innovative drive has been lost through complacency and it hasn't applied the lessons it gave everyone else. Those businesses that have moved offshore are the smart ones. They owe it to their shareholders to go to the markets that will bring about the best outcomes. This flight from the USA isn't corporate greed, it's a vote of no confidence in the US economy. The market is not global anymore than it was global 50 years ago… It has just shifted from the US to Asia…just as in the past it shifted from Europe to the US. The innovation, invention or productivity are always with the industrial base…The trick is how to shift industry back. I would love to see your proof that the American worker is overpaid and under productive…please show me a few links that back up this statement… If you run a few searches on the net maybe your opinion will change…unless you are bigoted. I will agree with you about excessive taxation and regulation but not subsidies and protectionism. In the past our regulations were based on what was best for business…not the American people…that needs to change. We use 50 percent of the oil in the world…no producer could take that kind of drop over night… They would give in if grudgingly… remember demand is the other side of supply. By carefully using our national reserves we could easily break this upward spiral of oil costs and bring the oil producers to their knees. The rest of the world could not absorb 50 percent of the total output over night…in time yes…but the Saudi’s of this world would not wait…they are even more greedy than us. That would give us time to reduce our dependence on foreign oil with alternative energy sources… And yes there are many proven alternative fuels sources all it takes is our will to pursue them. Butch

Irishknight -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 9:54:19 AM)
Rex, Paul is partially right about the subsidies. The government created them to put a leash on American farmers and to drive out of business those who preferred to earn their living by the sweat of their brow. They pay huge sums of money to people to not farm the land. They have made it so that if you don't play their game, you don't play. Men like your father were purposely driven out of business by the government. I am building a horse ranch and the government has programs to pay for wells, fencing, digging ponds and fertilizing and seeding pasture. If I sign up and play their game, I can get all of this for free. It galls me to the core but I know that if I don't do it, someone else in competition with me will do it. I can either take my share of the dirty money or be swamped by my competition. As for his opinion of the American worker and American businesses, it seems to be slanted in a bigotted sort of way. For every lazy American worker he has seen or read about, I can find him 50 hard working Americans who will work him into the dust. Sadly, because of the lazy American myth there are not enough jobs to go around for these people. And remember something. Doing the job cheaper is not always better. Most of the Chinese, Korean, and Mexican made products suck ass. They are inferior and have to be replaced sooner. In the long run, they cost us more.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:04:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight Rex, Paul is partially right about the subsidies. The government created them to put a leash on American farmers and to drive out of business those who preferred to earn their living by the sweat of their brow. They pay huge sums of money to people to not farm the land. They have made it so that if you don't play their game, you don't play. Men like your father were purposely driven out of business by the government. I am building a horse ranch and the government has programs to pay for wells, fencing, digging ponds and fertilizing and seeding pasture. If I sign up and play their game, I can get all of this for free. It galls me to the core but I know that if I don't do it, someone else in competition with me will do it. I can either take my share of the dirty money or be swamped by my competition. As for his opinion of the American worker and American businesses, it seems to be slanted in a bigotted sort of way. For every lazy American worker he has seen or read about, I can find him 50 hard working Americans who will work him into the dust. Sadly, because of the lazy American myth there are not enough jobs to go around for these people. And remember something. Doing the job cheaper is not always better. Most of the Chinese, Korean, and Mexican made products suck ass. They are inferior and have to be replaced sooner. In the long run, they cost us more. Yes...he didn't take the subsidies and got under cut constantly. but alot of it was nafta too....they are guarnteed a profit, so that hurt him. But him thinking my dad was a poor business man is what galls me.

dreamysubmale -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:19:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni I do believe Paulnz see's things from the point of view from a nation that has to import everything. The United States and The EU can out produce the world into the ground, and make a boatload of money doing it. oh and paul, tell an american farmer about "subsidies" while he goes bankrupt from mexican and canadian imports. happened to my father. NZ is a good example of an economy that restructured from being one that was essentially socialist with a complete raft of protections, to a market economy with few protections. If you go back before 1984 and bought something made in NZ, it was like it had been made in the 1950's as the designs were really 1950's. The manufacturing base had stood still as it had no reason to develop - it was protected. The reform brought about change, and a general rise in the standard of living. Subsidies were removed for farmers. Today, farmers receive few handouts. Many went to the wall, and today if they don't run a good business, they go out of business. That's the way the World works. Now, we're a vibrant economy, a hotbed of technological innovation and enterprise. There are few that can match us. If the USA forgets the lessons it will end up without a pot to piss in. Maybe the Fashion Industry in the 80’s was from the 50’s era, but not the manufacturing of goods .A vibrant economy? I doubted it. Not since the mid 80’s when the Labour led Government (the Party that stood for good socialism) adopted the theories of an accountant/pig-farmer Roger (now Sir Roger) Douglas, LP’s Finance Minister at the time had we had stable economy. Many considered his ideas to be some sort of a joke in bad taste. Prior to that, NZ had a mixed socialist/capitalist economy and the socialist part of this meant that the less fortunate were looked after by the more fortunate. But NZ was prosperous back then. Unemployment was at less than 1%; even 0.4%, as a result most NZlanders had the essentials for a good and reasonable life, and the NZ economy was in these regards much envied by other countries. NZ was a world leader in many activities It was a controlled economy for sure. But this had the good spin-off that what the country could not import was manufactured here. Hence there were strong and wide skills and industry bases in NZ. The LP (through Rogernomics) removed all direct Government assistance to producer groups, removed tariffs, the control of imports and import licensing, then proceeded to sale most if not all of the Government assets, (including strategic assets) sometimes at fire-sale prices. The effects of that great sell-off of the activities and resources that all New Zealanders had so assiduously created and maintained during the preceding 50 years have been apparent to many; transfer of wealth to a few and overseas, greatly increased unemployment, increasing poverty, increasing lawlessness, casualisation of the workforce, huge loss of skills and so on. Families began to suffer huge long-term decline and disruption (even to this day), plants closed, and still closing or shifting to China or Thailand, millions of dollars in wages were effectively sent overseas instead of going to NZ pockets. There has as a result been significant social restructuring, and huge social cost. Large and significant groups of society that formerly were in a comfortable financial position and employed productively became to be in a perilous financial state, and a great proportion of the populace has become impoverished. In contrast, some people have done very well out of all this; notably senior company management, and many businesses. What concerns me is the astronomical increase in social ills as a result of Rogernomics. Our healthcare system once the envy is busting at the seams. The few Hospitals that remained open can’t cope with the influx of patients and they result in keeping them in the corridors. Third world deceases become the norm. Poverty (as we know it) was unheard off in NZ but ashamedly the UN not long ago, voiced its concerns about our child poverty, one of the highest in the OECD countries. We have the highest teen suicide rates, highest teen pregnancies. Crime against property is on the increase so as gang proliferation. Our prison population is higher than that of the US (per capita). Paulnz…remember when we used to call NZ the land of milk and honey? Well now days even the middle class had to cut down on its milk consumption. Phew…that’s was a long rant. And I am not even a socialist…just a compassionate capitalist.

Irishknight -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:23:55 AM)
I wouldn't let it bother me if I were you. Those who have neverlived through it find it easy to put down others. Its the same thing as seeing a homeless person and automatically assuming that they are homeless because they are lazy. Making a snap judgement without all of the facts merely shows the ignorance of the judge.

MrRodgers -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:43:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Thanks KD - I actually cut my final paragraph off, which was along the lines of a need to withdraw from this "international global market" thing and reevaluate during a period when we each take care of our own business without the destabilising interference of outside agencies/countries. Problem being with that, it would require us withdrawing our interference in others' affairs too, which isnt going to go down well here with those who make the rules - but then, its about time we made the rules. What I'm talking about is some sort of "national socialist" approach to the economy (the economy only before I get jumped on) - ie looking after our own first, in competition and cooperation with others as they wish and according to our internal goals. Isolationist for sure, but no need not to trade if it meets some goal we have for our people and country - and no more selling off our family silver (and the recovery of that which has been sold off) to all and sundry who have little interest in the welfare of our people and country. E You kinkroids haven't been reading. Let's simplify: Labor is what you are talking about rather than manufacturing and it is LABOR that is the wealth in the manufacturing phase of fulfilling demand and IS the ONLY wealth. *"Labor comes first, for labor IS capital...without labor, you have no capital."* Abraham Lincoln 1837 Capitalism is a 'paper' economy ONLY. ALL of the value (wealth) in the paper is based on the labor that gives it any value. So what does capitalism do ? It sells paper based on a piece of ownership of the labor employed. When I build that mouse trap...the company owns the mouse trap and what have I given the wood and metal in that piece ? I have enhanced its value...with my labor. Capitalism is NO economy at all as it just the buying and selling of paper in what has become the casino of wall street. An income tax is passed, then tax 'incentives' put 100's of billions of OUR retirement on wall street that represents MOST of the value of wall street. That's specifically to put our money at risk...thus we just NEED this bailout. Once again, labor must insure itself to protect the value of its own labor. Our labor is so far in debt now and going trillions further in debt because the capitalist blew it. We are witnesing now the complete devaluation of our labor...rates will go up, inflation will ensue and then more and more as long as there isn;t enough labor to pay the debt service AND pay down any principle. It is the NEW vanilla slavery...slavery to debt. We are watching what our capitalism has wrought. A game of paper-speculation and rolling the dice with our money. They lost it and now WE have to bail THEM out for losing OUR money. Everybody happy now ?

MrRodgers -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:55:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail. Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you. Stop making excuses for your fathers failure in business. The taxpayer doesn't owe him a living. He failed because he wasn't good at his job. What I know about the US economy is from doing business with it and competing with it in third markets. US business is slow to adjust, is pricey, their people are generally ignorant of the outside world, and can't do simple things like think in metric measurements. But what they make is usually solid, if unimaginative. That's it right there really. The more subsidies, bailout packages, and goodness knows what, the more that situation will prevail. The problem with the USA is it is over regulated, has complex systems, is rife with vested interest groups wanting their wedge, lacks productivity as a result, and is standing still ( going backwards ). More of the same will only make matters worse. The USA will end up a socialist shithole like Europe if they're not careful. The only thing currently keeping the USA's head above water is that 20% earning 80% of the revenue. But that 20% is fast losing patience and getting ready to ditch. The crash will be bigger than anything seen in the last few days. It is a disaster that can be averted by doing the sensible thing; reduce the size of government, lower taxes for the rich and business, maybe eliminate all taxes for business, eliminate all tariffs, simplify regulations and offer few if any government safety blankets. Oh yes, who'd want to go live and do buiness in Europe. You know Europe don't ya ? That place that is: ...as productive or more so than America. ...where your life expectancy is longer ...where you are better off UNemployed than millions are in America when they...ARE employed. ...where American businesses have invested and made $85 BILLION in profits since 2000. ...where there is less absenteeism and greater liesure time. ...where as many or more in this world immigrate and stay as come to America. ...where there is the 'family' value of national health insurance for people instead of that great American value of national health insurance for bankers and investors. Oh yea, Europe is a real shithole.

kittinSol -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:57:34 AM)
Fast reply - where do people get the idea that 'American workers are lazy'? They work more hours per year than workers in most industrialised countries. And they don't get paid accordingly. International Labour Office . PS: (A friendly UN Agency.)

kittinSol -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:58:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh yea, Europe is a real shithole. Yup. Free healthcare and gourmet foods: who'd have that [8D] ?

LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 10:59:25 AM)
Thanks for that Dreamy - interesting to get another view; sounds exactly like what happened here in the 80s under the Conservatives - and equally foolish in my opinion from what you said. And IK - totally agreed, and I said as much in a PM with another contributor to this thread earlier today. The world turns for all of us and as the T shirt slogan says "shit happens" and it can happen to anyone, anytime for reasons quite beyond their control - when one has lived through such a turn, maybe wisdom results? E

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/1/2008 11:05:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz I was born in NZ. But you're right, the Crown did some stealing here, and we, that is the NZ taxpayer who had no part of the theft by Britain, are compensating the victims. Unlike Europe, who refuse to return the loot. Forgive me but I think white New Zealanders like everyone else involved got a lot out of the imperial plundering. The crown didn't get much out of the Empire, it was the merchant adventurers that got the loot. After the nationalisation of the Empire to stamp out capitalist corruption and brutality in the empire, Britain picked up most of the bill because by that time Britain was making its money through trade between the captive market. You have to live with the native New Zealanders, you are compensating them because you want to get on with the people you live amongst but that has long since not been our problem. How long has New Zealand been independent? Need I say more? Oh, and when are you moving back to Europe and giving New Zealand back to the natives? I'll meet you at the airport, I know a good bus shelter that you can sleep in. Don't criticize Europe (Britain in this case I suppose) for its plundering when you seem happy enough to live on the land it stole from the natives.

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