RE: right all along?

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Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 12:23:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen So which is it? Fair trade with a level playing field. Europe have been trying to skew the playing field in its favour since, forever. It gets worse. When Europe set about trying to destroy itself, who came along an saved their ragged arses ? The rest of the World, that's who ( the largest volunteer army during WW2 was Indian ). Then as soon as Europe had been sorted out, what did they do ? Set up an exclusive club all for themselves and told everyone else to piss off. Marvellous. Last night I was watching a BBC documentary on a village in Pakistan and the so-called Millenium goals. One old timer in the village had something very interesting to say. He pointed out how he was sick of some European coming along and telling him how he had to wash his hands all the time. The Qur'an says to wash your hands 5 times a day, they know how to be clean !! Do you see the point ? What he was saying is that Europe have a habit of telling the rest of the World how to live, and in a way that advantages themselves. They're not to be trusted. I agree with the old fella, and counsel caution with everything derived from Europe. They are self serving ,greedy and corrupt.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 12:25:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni Come to the US you kiwi f**k and tell my Dad he was a failure. I dare you. Getting the farm sold from under you is failure. I don't know how else you can describe it.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 12:40:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Without FDIC, we'd be having runs on the banks, just as in the early 20th century. People would hoard instead of invest, to the detriment of themselves and the economy. They'd be no money to loan--and no checking accounts--do we then drive to the corporate headquarters to pay our bills each month? Nor could we buy a money order--no institution from which to buy it. The consolidation you describe has already happened much earlier than this. We DO have a handful of banks----Morgan/Chase and Citibank alone carry the bulk of the business. And others---WalMu and Wachovia---are now no more. What you've described if true is an unstable financial system. Somehow I doubt things are that dire. I realise that the FDIC system is considered sacrosanct and will never be ditched. Pity, as that is one of the major things holding the USA back. The more than doubling of the protection in the bailout is more of the same, and will lead to even more reckless banking practises. I grew up with s system of government guarantees on trading banks. When the system was changed and all government guarantees were removed, the system didn't implode. But some banks did disappear, being rolled into other institutions. Now, when a depositor here walks into a bank and asks how safe is his money, the bank offers their books to study. The health of the institution is the guarantee, nothing else. Depositors have to be risk averse, and the banks prudent with that money. In the USA ( and I've experienced this ) the first thing the bank says is ' oh all deposits are FDIC insured ' which is meant to make me feel good. Err, it makes my sphincter twitch if you ask me. The answer I want to hear is what their loan book breaks down as, you know, 20% commercial, 40% farms, 40% residential, that sort of thing. If a bank told me they were sub priming or being creative in any way, I'd run for the door. See ? The information is the key, not some government guarantee. The bailout as put in the USA is simply a payoff for political cronies. There is no need to buy that bad debt. The main problem appears to be interbank lending drying up, as the banks don't trust one another. All the central bank needs to do is enter the market to provide that interbank liquidity. The taxpayer makes money out of the banks in that case. Instead, buying the bad debts is getting the poor decision-makers off the hook. Capitalism is founded on profit and loss. Remove the loss and what have you got ? It ain't capitalism.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 12:47:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub The market is not global anymore than it was global 50 years ago… Nonsense. quote: I would love to see your proof that the American worker is overpaid and under productive…please show me a few links that back up this statement… If you run a few searches on the net maybe your opinion will change…unless you are bigoted. You just have to buy a Japanese made car and compare it with an American one to see which worker is better. It is not rocket science. quote: I will agree with you about excessive taxation and regulation but not subsidies and protectionism. In the past our regulations were based on what was best for business…not the American people…that needs to change. The USA is highly protectionist. They close the door to foreign competition on a whim, and sometimes act illegally when doing so. quote: We use 50 percent of the oil in the world…no producer could take that kind of drop over night… They would give in if grudgingly… No they wouldn't. If you weren't buying their oil, they'd consider their reserves longer lasting. The Saudis think in centuries, not decades.

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 1:01:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz Fair trade with a level playing field. Europe have been trying to skew the playing field in its favour since, forever. It gets worse. When Europe set about trying to destroy itself, who came along an saved their ragged arses ? The rest of the World, that's who ( the largest volunteer army during WW2 was Indian ). Then as soon as Europe had been sorted out, what did they do ? Set up an exclusive club all for themselves and told everyone else to piss off. Marvellous. I think you'll find that the Indian army didn't fight in Europe saving one lot of Europeans from another lot of Europeans, they fought in asia saving one lot of asians from another lot of asians. The asians they were fighting were far worse than the Europeans that governed them, that was why many asians thought the Europeans (for that moment in time) served them better than the asians that wanted to conquer them. quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz Last night I was watching a BBC documentary on a village in Pakistan and the so-called Millenium goals. One old timer in the village had something very interesting to say. He pointed out how he was sick of some European coming along and telling him how he had to wash his hands all the time. The Qur'an says to wash your hands 5 times a day, they know how to be clean !! Do you see the point ? What he was saying is that Europe have a habit of telling the rest of the World how to live, and in a way that advantages themselves. They're not to be trusted. I agree with the old fella, and counsel caution with everything derived from Europe. They are self serving ,greedy and corrupt. There is a reason why people die so young in the developed world and that is usually because of hygeine. Not because the locals are somehow don't take personal hygeine seriously but because of the poor conditions in which they live, they need to be extra vigilant.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 1:10:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale Maybe the Fashion Industry in the 80’s was from the 50’s era, but not the manufacturing of goods .A vibrant economy? I doubted it. Not since the mid 80’s when the Labour led Government (the Party that stood for good socialism) adopted the theories of an accountant/pig-farmer Roger (now Sir Roger) Douglas, LP’s Finance Minister at the time had we had stable economy. Many considered his ideas to be some sort of a joke in bad taste. NZ in 1984 was backward. The manufacturing industry was making stuff that made the 1950's look old. Businesses in Christchurch like Anderson Engineering and Paintin and Nottingham were making stuff ( agricultural machinery ) that if looked at now seems like from the ark. It was laughable. They were making stuff that was mechanical, not even using hydraulics. I remember seeing some of the first fully hydraulic stuff imported to NZ and it drew crowds wonder struck at the modernity of it all. Removing tariff protection got rid of those industries, and we became productive ovrenight. It was like one day we were in the dark, and then next day the light had arrived. The transformation was that swift. quote: Prior to that, NZ had a mixed socialist/capitalist economy and the socialist part of this meant that the less fortunate were looked after by the more fortunate. But NZ was prosperous back then. Unemployment was at less than 1%; even 0.4%, as a result most NZlanders had the essentials for a good and reasonable life, and the NZ economy was in these regards much envied by other countries. NZ was a world leader in many activities This sounds like some Jim Anderton speech or some BNZ ad' hankering after the good old days. Well the old days weren't that good. NZ before 1984 had hyper inflation, and simple basics were scarce. To travel overseas you needed permission to be allowed to use foreign exchange. Buying a car you had to put your name down and wait for the one you would be allowed. No colour choice even. In the town I grew up in there were three eateries for a population of 30,000. The hotel was for guests only, the licensed restaurant only let people in properly dressed, which left the Fish & Chip shop grill room out the back. Trading hours were limited. If you wanted to buy shoe polish on the weekend the shop owner could be prosecuted. You needed special permission to transport a load more than 30 miles. On and on and on. And the figures which show we enjoyed a high standard of living overlook that much of the rest of the World was being rebuilt after the war. We didn't have to worry about any of that. quote: It was a controlled economy for sure. But this had the good spin-off that what the country could not import was manufactured here. Hence there were strong and wide skills and industry bases in NZ. See above, too simplistic. quote: The LP (through Rogernomics) removed all direct Government assistance to producer groups, removed tariffs, the control of imports and import licensing, then proceeded to sale most if not all of the Government assets, (including strategic assets) sometimes at fire-sale prices. The effects of that great sell-off of the activities and resources that all New Zealanders had so assiduously created and maintained during the preceding 50 years have been apparent to many; transfer of wealth to a few and overseas, greatly increased unemployment, increasing poverty, increasing lawlessness, casualisation of the workforce, huge loss of skills and so on. The transformation saw NZ become a fully developed modern economy. It acquired a high standard of living for the first time, with innovative businesses that can take on the World. High unemployment was brief and never as bad as predicted. Many of the government owned businesses were featherbedding and inefficient. Most of them were better off being sold off. Some mistakes were made in the way they were sold, but overall the outcome was beneficial. quote: Our healthcare system once the envy is busting at the seams. The few Hospitals that remained open can’t cope with the influx of patients and they result in keeping them in the corridors. The problem with the health care system is that with any public system, there is a problem with the allocation of resources. In effect you can see what the price is for certain procedures by looking at the length of the queue. The hospitals have become a soak pit for money. However hospitals now are much better places than they were pre reforms. If you went to hospital in the 1970's, it was likely you were there to die.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 1:17:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I think you'll find that the Indian army didn't fight in Europe saving one lot of Europeans from another lot of Europeans, they fought in asia saving one lot of asians from another lot of asians. Incorrect. The Indians fought in North Africa and then Italy. They were in the battle of El Alamein, the turning point in the land battles against the Germans, and then at Cassino. Think about that, and then consider how prejudicially Indians ( and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis ) are treated. It doesn't reflect well on Europeans. quote: There is a reason why people die so young in the developed world and that is usually because of hygeine. Not because the locals are somehow don't take personal hygeine seriously but because of the poor conditions in which they live, they need to be extra vigilant. I'm talking about the attitude Europe has when dealing with the rest of the World. For more of this study the ideas of Dr Mahathir Muhammad, the former PM of Malaysia. He made a good speech once describing how Europe wants the rainforest Indians to stay in their carbon neutral jungle. Ask the rainforest Indians what they want, and they say they want colour TV's and hot and cold running water and if it means cutting down the rainforest to get, so be it.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 1:24:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Oh yea, Europe is a real shithole. If Europe is so wonderful, then how come so many Europeans are looking to get out ?

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 1:41:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I think you'll find that the Indian army didn't fight in Europe saving one lot of Europeans from another lot of Europeans, they fought in asia saving one lot of asians from another lot of asians. Incorrect. The Indians fought in North Africa and then Italy. They were in the battle of El Alamein, the turning point in the land battles against the Germans, and then at Cassino. Think about that, and then consider how prejudicially Indians ( and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis ) are treated. It doesn't reflect well on Europeans. The vast majority fought in asia. I don't think anyone has denied the crimes of the imperial age. You are European yourself according to your profile, albeit a New Zealander, you are enjoying the fruits of the imperial age. If you feel so bad about the crimes of the imperial age shouldn't you be giving your home back to the Moaris and moving back to Europe? quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver There is a reason why people die so young in the developed world and that is usually because of hygeine. Not because the locals are somehow don't take personal hygeine seriously but because of the poor conditions in which they live, they need to be extra vigilant. I'm talking about the attitude Europe has when dealing with the rest of the World. For more of this study the ideas of Dr Mahathir Muhammad, the former PM of Malaysia. He made a good speech once describing how Europe wants the rainforest Indians to stay in their carbon neutral jungle. Ask the rainforest Indians what they want, and they say they want colour TV's and hot and cold running water and if it means cutting down the rainforest to get, so be it. Let them cut the rain forests down and impoverish themselves tomorrow for jam today. The earth in which the rainforest grows isn't very fertile and within a year or two of being cut down becomes infertile. I suggest Dr Mahathir Muhammad is considering his personal wealth than the wellbeing of the rainforest Indians. He and his corrupt government will get billions from the logging. I doubt the rainforest Indians will get their colour TVs, they will just get their land back when it is more useless than a wal-Mart car park.

TNstepsout -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 2:34:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz The answer I want to hear is what their loan book breaks down as, you know, 20% commercial, 40% farms, 40% residential, that sort of thing. If a bank told me they were sub priming or being creative in any way, I'd run for the door. See ? The information is the key, not some government guarantee. The majority of Americans would not understand the relevance of these percentages and have no way to interpret the safety/security of an institution by looking at a loan book. If the average American were that knowledgeable we would not be in the mess we are today as very few people would have been willing to accept the risk involved in variable rate, adjusting ARM etc... type mortgages. I am in the HOA business and I talk to people every day whose ability to understand and comprehend really basic concepts of bill paying and their personal finances is so weak, it's truly astonishing that anyone entrusted these people with a loan of 100k or more. They really can't, or don't want, to be bothered with any type of personal responsibility for their own life and well being. Personally I think you may be right. I've been in favor of this bill because I'd really NOT to live through a Great Depression. It really isn't on my list of things to do before I die. But the more I think about it, the more I think that in the long run it would be good for this country and it's people to endure that kind of hardship. It might make a lot of them grow up and act like responsible adults instead of whining children.

LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 3:15:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz Fair trade with a level playing field. Europe have been trying to skew the playing field in its favour since, forever. Yes, fair trade with a level playing field would be a marvellous thing - but its unattainable, or if attainable then only temporarily - there are simply far too many variables at work and far too many clever heads on all sides quick to take advantage of the slightest matter to drive a wedge whereby the playing field becomes untenable for some, to the advantage of others. Looking at history - we were all living in caves at some time and all pretty much the same, yet a few thousand years later there were some who had achieved great civilisations with control of land, people and resources that made them wealthy and dominant players in their regions. Unfortunately, its human nature (animal nature too) to gain advantage in the world through asserting control and acquiring wealth. That we in Europe happened to be the lucky ones that had the technological advantages to do so on a world wide scale is simply the repetition of the same process that made the Chinese, Indians, Persians et al, supreme in earlier times on more regional bases. And this is where your position seems confused in that it doesnt seem to account for this basic human nature, the presence of which requires all manner of protections and subsidies in order to level the playing field and keep it level for everyone - which you seem to have rejected. In military terms, it is for certain that if all armies had to fight with sticks then it would be equal and everyone would have a fair crack at world power status. But it only requires one person in one army to pick up a rock for the whole thing to become unbalanced - and its the person with the rock who then says whether its use is legal or not. The world isnt perfect, it certainly isnt fair. Yes we can do what we can to make it approximate more closely to perfection and do what we can to remove that which is grossly unfair, but it will ever remain so, despite our best efforts. That the western world has the rock in its hand has seen great efforts towards perfection and fairness alongside terrible failures in their achievement, but I'll tell you what, I'd sooner trust the world with our idiots than with the idiots of any other brand. E

Musicmystery -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 3:44:52 AM)
quote: I grew up with s system of government guarantees on trading banks. When the system was changed and all government guarantees were removed, the system didn't implode. But some banks did disappear, being rolled into other institutions. Now, when a depositor here walks into a bank and asks how safe is his money, the bank offers their books to study. Exactly the same thing happens here, and smart customers do that. quote: The bailout as put in the USA is simply a payoff for political cronies. There is no need to buy that bad debt. The main problem appears to be interbank lending drying up, as the banks don't trust one another. All the central bank needs to do is enter the market to provide that interbank liquidity. The Fed has already provided it. As you've noted, the banks won't take advantage of that liquidity, given the uncertainty about each other's true financial stability. Your "solution" circles back to the same problem. The bailout is a bad plan, yes. I'd prefer Congress take time to develop a better one. But we're a month away from a bitterly partisan election, and that isn't going to happen. It's not the end of the world, however. Congress can make changes---and will, I hope---after the election.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 3:53:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You are European yourself according to your profile, albeit a New Zealander, you are enjoying the fruits of the imperial age. If you feel so bad about the crimes of the imperial age shouldn't you be giving your home back to the Moaris and moving back to Europe? Why would I want to move back to Europe, given its level of corruption, low standard of living and everything shitholesville ? I don't have anything to ' give ' back to the Maori as my family when they moved here dealt with the local tribe fairly and squarely and kept their side of the bargain, and still do to this day. quote: Let them cut the rain forests down and impoverish themselves tomorrow for jam today. The earth in which the rainforest grows isn't very fertile and within a year or two of being cut down becomes infertile. I suggest Dr Mahathir Muhammad is considering his personal wealth than the wellbeing of the rainforest Indians. He and his corrupt government will get billions from the logging. I doubt the rainforest Indians will get their colour TVs, they will just get their land back when it is more useless than a wal-Mart car park. The logging creates employment and enables the natives to pull themselves up out of subsistence living. It's a darn sight better than being kept a prisoner in the jungle for European tourists to turn up and marvel at the rustics.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 3:58:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Yes, fair trade with a level playing field would be a marvellous thing - but its unattainable, or if attainable then only temporarily - there are simply far too many variables at work and far too many clever heads on all sides quick to take advantage of the slightest matter to drive a wedge whereby the playing field becomes untenable for some, to the advantage of others. The level playing field is easily attainable. The EU just has to lower its tariffs to zero. That would allow Africa to export its primary production to Europe, earn more, and put them in a position to buy back European machinery to further develop their land. Instead Europe, after having plundered the continent, wants to keep them on a UN drip feed while its multi-nationals continue the looting. quote: And this is where your position seems confused in that it doesnt seem to account for this basic human nature, the presence of which requires all manner of protections and subsidies in order to level the playing field and keep it level for everyone - which you seem to have rejected. You seem to be the one saying might is right. What I'm calling for is a peaceful resolution to resource allocation through open markets

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:05:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You are European yourself according to your profile, albeit a New Zealander, you are enjoying the fruits of the imperial age. If you feel so bad about the crimes of the imperial age shouldn't you be giving your home back to the Moaris and moving back to Europe? Why would I want to move back to Europe, given its level of corruption, low standard of living and everything shitholesville ? I don't have anything to ' give ' back to the Maori as my family when they moved here dealt with the local tribe fairly and squarely and kept their side of the bargain, and still do to this day. Well you seem to be consumed with white man's guilt. Maybe you should start bleating to your fellow white compatriots for their enjoyment of the fruits they exploited from the native people there. quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: Let them cut the rain forests down and impoverish themselves tomorrow for jam today. The earth in which the rainforest grows isn't very fertile and within a year or two of being cut down becomes infertile. I suggest Dr Mahathir Muhammad is considering his personal wealth than the wellbeing of the rainforest Indians. He and his corrupt government will get billions from the logging. I doubt the rainforest Indians will get their colour TVs, they will just get their land back when it is more useless than a wal-Mart car park. The logging creates employment and enables the natives to pull themselves up out of subsistence living. It's a darn sight better than being kept a prisoner in the jungle for European tourists to turn up and marvel at the rustics. Fine but I think if you do your research, the indigenous people of the rainforests very rarely profit from logging, it is the large corporations and corrupt local politicians that profit. The local people are then left with land they cannot farm because the soil quality is too poor, desertification spreads and the locals end up in shanty towns begging for a living. Wish it was so that ordinary people profit from such industry, they largely don't. Have you got shares in a logging company?

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:09:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Yes, fair trade with a level playing field would be a marvellous thing - but its unattainable, or if attainable then only temporarily - there are simply far too many variables at work and far too many clever heads on all sides quick to take advantage of the slightest matter to drive a wedge whereby the playing field becomes untenable for some, to the advantage of others. The level playing field is easily attainable. The EU just has to lower its tariffs to zero. That would allow Africa to export its primary production to Europe, earn more, and put them in a position to buy back European machinery to further develop their land. Instead Europe, after having plundered the continent, wants to keep them on a UN drip feed while its multi-nationals continue the looting. Oh I see where this comes from. You are a dheep farmer or something and Britain's entry into the EU left your family high and dry after losing one of its biggest export markets. I thought that bitterness had to come from somewhere. The EU lowering its tariffs would be meaningless without the US doing the same but I agree with you, the developed world protects its markets while asking the undeveloped world to open theirs.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:10:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout The majority of Americans would not understand the relevance of these percentages and have no way to interpret the safety/security of an institution by looking at a loan book. If the average American were that knowledgeable we would not be in the mess we are today as very few people would have been willing to accept the risk involved in variable rate, adjusting ARM etc... type mortgages. I am in the HOA business and I talk to people every day whose ability to understand and comprehend really basic concepts of bill paying and their personal finances is so weak, it's truly astonishing that anyone entrusted these people with a loan of 100k or more. They really can't, or don't want, to be bothered with any type of personal responsibility for their own life and well being. Personally I think you may be right. I've been in favor of this bill because I'd really NOT to live through a Great Depression. It really isn't on my list of things to do before I die. But the more I think about it, the more I think that in the long run it would be good for this country and it's people to endure that kind of hardship. It might make a lot of them grow up and act like responsible adults instead of whining children. A Depression is pretty harsh. But having lived through major economic restructuring I can say what that is like. In 1984 there would have been few in NZ who knew what an Investment Statement or Balance Sheet was. Investors got burned, but depositors did learn to be careful, though this lesson still needs reinforcing from time to time, hence the recent meltdown with fringe finance companies and their investors losing money. The government is generally reluctant to bail out any institution and has only done it once in recent memory, and that was the BNZ in the early 1990's. The general level of financial literacy has risen a long way from where it was.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:12:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Oh I see where this comes from. You are a dheep farmer or something and Britain's entry into the EU left your family high and dry after losing one of its biggest export markets. I thought that bitterness had to come from somewhere. The EU lowering its tariffs would be meaningless without the US doing the same but I agree with you, the developed world protects its markets while asking the undeveloped world to open theirs. Good guess but you're wrong. However Britain applying to enter the EEC as early as the 1950's ( blocked by France ) is galling when you consider what we did for them. Next time, we'll be having a bad hair day.

seeksfemslave -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:18:37 AM)
I think PaulNZ is telling a lot of home truths about Europe. Our history is a disgrace , took guts to enact it tho', and our so called democracy a sham. note: on formation of the Common Market the UK did not join and tell the rest of the world to piss off. Even today I suspect given the choice many if not the majority ,not really sure, would vote to leave. I dont know much cos i am consistantly surpised how many support our monarchy. The UK would have been far better forming economic alliance with Australia NZealand and Canada. Our lamentable public schoolboys can go and copulate with themselves.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:19:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Maybe you should start bleating to your fellow white compatriots for their enjoyment of the fruits they exploited from the native people there. Nope, doesn't work that one, as NZ is settling the grievances. Look up the Waitangi Tribunal. quote: Fine but I think if you do your research, the indigenous people of the rainforests very rarely profit from logging, it is the large corporations and corrupt local politicians that profit. The local people are then left with land they cannot farm because the soil quality is too poor, desertification spreads and the locals end up in shanty towns begging for a living. Wish it was so that ordinary people profit from such industry, they largely don't. Basically you're saying they're simpletons who can't look after themselves. That's the sort of view I'm talking about. The Europeans want to keep the ' simpletons ' nice and rustic so they can have their Lonely Planet moment where they poke and prod at them, carbon neutrally of course.

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