RE: right all along?

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meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:22:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Fine but I think if you do your research, the indigenous people of the rainforests very rarely profit from logging, it is the large corporations and corrupt local politicians that profit. The local people are then left with land they cannot farm because the soil quality is too poor, desertification spreads and the locals end up in shanty towns begging for a living. Wish it was so that ordinary people profit from such industry, they largely don't. Basically you're saying they're simpletons who can't look after themselves. That's the sort of view I'm talking about. The Europeans want to keep the ' simpletons ' nice and rustic so they can have their Lonely Planet moment where they poke and prod at them, carbon neutrally of course. I'd read what I wrote again, you are letting your bitterness get the better of you. I'm actually agreeing with you that the world markets are skewed in favour of the developed world. I didn't say that was a good thing or not, I just said that is how it is.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:24:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Even today I suspect given the choice many if not the majority ,not really sure, would vote to leave. I suspect this may be the case. Certainly many of the Poms I meet think that. Something to consider is the rapid growth of India today. Britain could have had a far bigger share of that growth had they stayed closer. Going into the EU may have been a short term fix, but long term sacrificed much more.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:28:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Fine but I think if you do your research, the indigenous people of the rainforests very rarely profit from logging, it is the large corporations and corrupt local politicians that profit. The local people are then left with land they cannot farm because the soil quality is too poor, desertification spreads and the locals end up in shanty towns begging for a living. Wish it was so that ordinary people profit from such industry, they largely don't. Basically you're saying they're simpletons who can't look after themselves. That's the sort of view I'm talking about. The Europeans want to keep the ' simpletons ' nice and rustic so they can have their Lonely Planet moment where they poke and prod at them, carbon neutrally of course. I'd read what I wrote again, you are letting your bitterness get the better of you. I'm actually agreeing with you that the world markets are skewed in favour of the developed world. I didn't say that was a good thing or not, I just said that is how it is. You were pre-judging outcomes based on past practises. My suggestion is they be left to get on with it and find their own solutions, and Europe do less lecturing and more buying.

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:46:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Even today I suspect given the choice many if not the majority ,not really sure, would vote to leave. I suspect this may be the case. Certainly many of the Poms I meet think that. Something to consider is the rapid growth of India today. Britain could have had a far bigger share of that growth had they stayed closer. Going into the EU may have been a short term fix, but long term sacrificed much more. So you feel betrayed, that is where your anger comes from. India wanted us gone and I don't blame them either.

MadAxeman -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:52:23 AM)
*And what does NZ have that we need?*

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 4:56:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz You were pre-judging outcomes based on past practises. My suggestion is they be left to get on with it and find their own solutions, and Europe do less lecturing and more buying. If your powers of comprehension aren't up to the job there is nothing I can do about that. Europe isn't lecturing anyone as far as I'm aware and I'm fine with indigenous people finding their own solutions but I think you will find the logging corporations are international concerns and they buy licences from corrupt politicians, the indigenous people see nothing, they are basically asset stripped. There is evidence enough that when indigenous people allow the markets to move onto their lands, they invariably end up in shanty towns around some overcrowded city, in hope they can earn enough money to live on. It happened in Europe, its happening in India, China and Brazil. Once the land is being industrialized, most of the local people are surplus to requirement. OK, you wouldn't mind the indigenous people being dirt poor in some shanty town, you prefer them to chase the dream of wealth that every person with a modicum of knowledge knows they won't achieve and they'll end up in a worse state than they started. There are no colonies for the poor to emigrate to like there was for poor Europeans in the imperial days. There is nowhere for them to pursue any dreams they might have but the nearest over populated urban centre where they will spend their days sifting through rubbish heaps to scratch a living or have their underaged daughters prostitute themselves so the family can eat.

LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 5:17:26 AM)
I'm afraid Paul that you understand me well - might maketh right; it isnt fair, but thats the way it is. The thread is actually meant to be about how we have lost might to others in exchange for bits of paper whose intrinsic worth is that of bits of paper and whose notional worth is uncertain - and how we might regain that might, by which we also determine what is right. As I said, I'd sooner trust our idiots to determine right than anyone else's idiots. And this isnt simply about money, or wealth or the capacity to generate wealth - our sole focus on these has not served us well. It is also about our strategic interests - which are not well served when for instance, our water, gas, electricity and other amenities are sold off for a quick buck to some overseas corporation. Even more damaging to our strategic interests would be to open our doors to cheap food from Africa - for all the good and noble aims that would fulfil, it severely damages our ability to produce food ourselves when we're already reliant on so many imports. Faced with such competition, our farms across Europe would close and we'd be left at the mercy of African countries with less than favourable ideas of whats right and fair, just as we are at the mercy of the Saudis and others with respect to oil. As I said, the world isnt fair and there are many clever heads around quick to take advantage as and when they can - and they will rarely if ever listen to anything by way of correction in their views that doesnt involve the threat or use of might. And this ultimately is why your position - noble as its aims are - is flawed. Without someone or some group having the power, means and will to force through the threat or use of violence, everyone to play by the rules, there can be no rules. And no rules means exactly the sort of merciless exploitation that you (and I) would find unjustifiable, horrific and wrong. The game is therefore about acquiring and maintaining might so that we may determine right - to then criticise us for doing so is perhaps also noble, but it is 100% for certain that anyone else in our position would do exactly the same in their favour and perhaps even more to the detriment of everyone else - because it appears to be that we who do have the might to determine right are doing what is possible in this multi-dimensional strategic game to achieve aims towards what you seem to be espousing - but to simply move to that position unilaterally is not possible if we wish to retain might and so determine right. Just a closing thought - if New Zealanders prior to their entry into their brave new world were not too sophisticated, then how do you maintain that tribal Indians might have the wherewithal to understand and benefit from the commercial intricacies of a modern logging operation reliant on exporting its product worldwide? I'm afraid MC is right, and the modern evidence points to repeated instances whereby like the indigenous people of Manhattan a while back, they're more than likely to misunderstand the deal, gain little if anything from it and be left with nothing - by the usual suspects who have the might to do so. E

seeksfemslave -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 6:53:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Even today I suspect given the choice many if not the majority ,not really sure, would vote to leave. I suspect this may be the case. Certainly many of the Poms I meet think that. Something to consider is the rapid growth of India today. Britain could have had a far bigger share of that growth had they stayed closer. Going into the EU may have been a short term fix, but long term sacrificed much more. So you feel betrayed, that is where your anger comes from. India wanted us gone and I don't blame them either. Neither do I but that is no reason for us to give up our independance, renege on agreements with at the very least Australia just so our public schoolboys can swan around on the world stage by influencing Europe or hanging onto the coat tails of the US. The reality of geo politics are accurately expressed by wotsername lol.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 7:06:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman *And what does NZ have that we need?* Not a damn thing, either in the US or the UK.

seeksfemslave -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 7:10:23 AM)
Food ?

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 11:28:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman *And what does NZ have that we need?* Common sense and a stable economy.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 11:29:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Europe isn't lecturing anyone as far as I'm aware ... They are, you just have to turn on the TV any time and watch the news to see this.

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/2/2008 11:35:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The thread is actually meant to be about how we have lost might to others in exchange for bits of paper whose intrinsic worth is that of bits of paper and whose notional worth is uncertain - Bits of paper have nothing to do with it. You were bemoaning the loss of manufacturing jobs to other countries. The implication was that somehow Europe had achieved something worthy but lost it as a result of some misguided paper shuffling. What I'm pointing out is that there was nothing worthy lost. What was there was created off the back of systematic exploitation and subjugation of the rest of the World. All that has happened is that the criminal has been too clever by half and eventually been fleeced by someone else, and not a shot fired.

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 12:41:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Europe isn't lecturing anyone as far as I'm aware ... They are, you just have to turn on the TV any time and watch the news to see this. Europe isn't a TV channel and it doesn't speak English so tell me, how many languages do you speak?

TheUtopian -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 12:42:55 AM)
quote: Now, when a depositor here walks into a bank and asks how safe is his money, the bank offers their books to study. The health of the institution is the guarantee, nothing else. Depositors have to be risk averse, and the banks prudent with that money. In the USA ( and I've experienced this ) the first thing the bank says is ' oh all deposits are FDIC insured ' which is meant to make me feel good. Err, it makes my sphincter twitch if you ask me. The answer I want to hear is what their loan book breaks down as, you know, 20% commercial, 40% farms, 40% residential, that sort of thing. If a bank told me they were sub priming or being creative in any way, I'd run for the door. See ? The information is the key, not some government guarantee. That same level of both prudence and cynicism oughta be carried over by each American when its time to connect the arrows on their ballot. - R

LadyEllen -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 3:26:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The thread is actually meant to be about how we have lost might to others in exchange for bits of paper whose intrinsic worth is that of bits of paper and whose notional worth is uncertain - Bits of paper have nothing to do with it. You were bemoaning the loss of manufacturing jobs to other countries. The implication was that somehow Europe had achieved something worthy but lost it as a result of some misguided paper shuffling. What I'm pointing out is that there was nothing worthy lost. What was there was created off the back of systematic exploitation and subjugation of the rest of the World. All that has happened is that the criminal has been too clever by half and eventually been fleeced by someone else, and not a shot fired. You may draw your own conclusions about what was implied and regard them as the subject matter at hand, and write post after post based on that misunderstanding if you will. I cant decide, whether you're a wind-up merchant or just misunderstanding the point. When you first posted I thought maybe you had some special knowledge to impart which would help the thread forward, but it seems any advantage you might have been able to bring to bear has been lost in a bitter tirade against the very colonialism that provides you with a home. What we are talking about is really very simple, and for a change about the situations and needs of the ordinary person that you so ably confuse with those who rule them and who have brought disaster down. We are talking about the need to rebuild the systems of wealth generation that you see as awful, and yet can provide income and security to millions. And yes, its selfish in a way - yet, when other parts of the world are in trouble it is to us they look for assistance. If we are to follow your lead and render ourselves destitute, to whom will they look then? It is only by being strong that we can do anything to help anyone else, and we help because of our peculiarly European outlook, derived from our peculiarly European development - we certainly dont have to, and I would guess now that were the situation reversed and some other region had the power, that we might wait a long time for any assistance because they lacked those peculiarities. Perhaps we might talk again when China is the dominant world superpower, and see how things are then? E

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 5:08:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Europe isn't lecturing anyone as far as I'm aware ... They are, you just have to turn on the TV any time and watch the news to see this. Europe isn't a TV channel and it doesn't speak English so tell me, how many languages do you speak? Are you saying that the media misrepresents what Europe says and does ?

Paulnz -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 5:29:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen You may draw your own conclusions about what was implied and regard them as the subject matter at hand, and write post after post based on that misunderstanding if you will. Gee, I looked at the OP again just in case I missed something, but no, what I said you said is exactly what you said. The problem with what you said is that it was complete rubbish. quote: I cant decide, whether you're a wind-up merchant or just misunderstanding the point. I understood your point and have corrected it. quote: When you first posted I thought maybe you had some special knowledge to impart which would help the thread forward, but it seems any advantage you might have been able to bring to bear has been lost in a bitter tirade against the very colonialism that provides you with a home. Oh I see, you didn't like me correcting you, and so you've chosen to put your fingers in your ears and go lalalala. What provides me with a home is hard work and enterprise, no thanks to colonialism. This is the crux of where you're going wrong. You are giving yourself credit for something worthy you didn't have a hand in. For some it is hard to see themselves in a bad light. The prison is full of people claiming innocence. quote: We are talking about the need to rebuild the systems of wealth generation that you see as awful, and yet can provide income and security to millions. Problem is you didn't understand the systems of wealth generation. You can't rebuild what you don't understand. quote: And yes, its selfish in a way - yet, when other parts of the world are in trouble it is to us they look for assistance. Get over yourselves. Europe drags its feet, and the assistance it could make that's meaningful, such as lowering the drawbridge, it refuses to do. quote: If we are to follow your lead and render ourselves destitute, to whom will they look then? It is only by being strong that we can do anything to help anyone else, and we help because of our peculiarly European outlook, derived from our peculiarly European development - we certainly dont have to, and I would guess now that were the situation reversed and some other region had the power, that we might wait a long time for any assistance because they lacked those peculiarities. This is a very preculiar argument. After having plundered the World of its wealth, you think Europe should keep it because they're very nice people ? The same argument is used with museum pieces horded by Europe. Only Europe understands and is preserving the items. Err, no, hand the loot back. quote: Perhaps we might talk again when China is the dominant world superpower, and see how things are then? Well they are fast emerging and they don't look to be any worse, that's for sure. How could they be when Europe has set such a low example ?

meatcleaver -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 6:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Europe isn't lecturing anyone as far as I'm aware ... They are, you just have to turn on the TV any time and watch the news to see this. Europe isn't a TV channel and it doesn't speak English so tell me, how many languages do you speak? Are you saying that the media misrepresents what Europe says and does ? The media represents itself, all free media does.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: right all along? (10/3/2008 7:11:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman *And what does NZ have that we need?* Common sense and a stable economy. HAHAHAHAHAHA....I have nothing but trash from your kiwi eating chute.

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