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ORIGINAL: Paulnz

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ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

My father ran an excellent business.You compare apples to oranges. There are states with bigger economies than NZ. For a huge economy, a degree of protections for home based goods and services is needed, else the nation becomes essentially a slave to its suppliers. As far as I am concerned go run your mouth about the US economy elsewhere.

Complete rubbish. Your economy is currently tanking due to such thinking. You have an environment where no-one accepts risk, all producers expect a hand-out from the taxpayer, and protection from competitors. Our economy was like that once. To a certain extent you are insulated from international trends as you don't rely on export trade to the extent we do. But the lesson is still there. The funny thing in all this is the USA has gone around the world lecturing everyone on how it is done, they've accepted the advice, and been successful at it. Then when it becomes apparent we are going to be better at it than the USA, they cry foul and run and hide. Marvellous.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Yes you're right; Europe's wealth is derived entirely from such imperial adventures - fostered incidentally by the same attitude you now espouse for the economy it seems - that to the victors go the spoils, and the weak must perish.

That my family worked as virtual slaves through this thing called the industrial revolution, and prior to that worked as actual slaves on the land, has of course nothing to do with the wealth attained. I am only here now, free to type on a message board during working hours because I own the business for which I work - something made possible for the descendant of slaves by the very same concerns for social justice which your philosophy seems to reject.

E

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ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni


I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail.  Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Anything I have and my family has, we worked for it and risked life and limb to get it from those who happened to be in control of our country - and one foot wrong and we lose the lot, because it isnt a lot that we have.

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Incidentally, if Europe is collectively guilty as you say, and reparations are due, then shouldnt you be on the next flight out of NZ so as to yield your ill-gotten country to those from whom you stole it?

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ORIGINAL: Paulnz

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ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni


I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail.  Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you.

Stop making excuses for your fathers failure in business. The taxpayer doesn't owe him a living. He failed because he wasn't good at his job.

What I know about the US economy is from doing business with it and competing with it in third markets. US business is slow to adjust, is pricey, their people are generally ignorant of the outside world, and can't do simple things like think in metric measurements. But what they make is usually solid, if unimaginative. That's it right there really. The more subsidies, bailout packages, and goodness knows what, the more that situation will prevail.

The problem with the USA is it is over regulated, has complex systems, is rife with vested interest groups wanting their wedge, lacks productivity as a result, and is standing still ( going backwards ). More of the same will only make matters worse. The USA will end up a socialist shithole like Europe if they're not careful. The only thing currently keeping the USA's head above water is that 20% earning 80% of the revenue. But that 20% is fast losing patience and getting ready to ditch. The crash will be bigger than anything seen in the last few days. It is a disaster that can be averted by doing the sensible thing; reduce the size of government, lower taxes for the rich and business, maybe eliminate all taxes for business, eliminate all tariffs, simplify regulations and offer few if any government safety blankets. 

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ORIGINAL: Paulnz

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

FDIC insurance protects depositors, not the banks--the banks could still go bust, but their customers won't lose their money.

That's my point. Depositors should not be protected. They should learn that if they deposit their money in the wrong place, they'll lose it. On the other side of the coin, the banks know they're not accountable to their depositors as they're covered, so the banks make even more reckless decisions.

The lesson is risk aversion. Both depositors and banks have to learn a healthy dose of it.

The American banking environment is overly complicated. They need to be able to go through a phase of consolidation, leaving maybe no more than a dozen banks doing the business for 80% of clients. The current set-up is unstable and the current crisis if rescued in current form, will be revisited again in a few years time. It's like the guy at the race track deciding to double up when he lost on the last race.

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ORIGINAL: Paulnz
I do get it but you don't. The market is a global one. You don't have a monoply on innovation, invention or productivity. If you go down an isolationist path, you'll end up without a pot to piss in. Thankfully the boffins who run things in the USA realise this and don't listen to your kind of advice. Problem is though, the inefficiencies have become so entrenched, getting the US economy back on track is going to be a monumental undertaking. They'll likely fail trying. 

The oil you speak of would simply be diverted to China, Korea and Japan. The price would drop, and they'd produce goods even cheaper than they are now, and you'd be left with no oil, and an alternative energy sector that is unproven, at best unreliable, and at worst defunct.

The USA's moment in the spotlight has come to an end. It ended on the back of excessive taxation and regulation, subsidies and protectionism, the distortionary effects of which ensured it couldn't compete globally. In a nutshell, the American worker is overpaid and under-productive, businesses do not have to face the effects of making bad choices, its innovative drive has been lost through complacency and it hasn't applied the lessons it gave everyone else. Those businesses that have moved offshore are the smart ones. They owe it to their shareholders to go to the markets that will bring about the best outcomes. This flight from the USA isn't corporate greed, it's a vote of no confidence in the US economy.

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ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Rex, Paul is partially right about the subsidies.  The government created them to put a leash on American farmers and to drive out of business those who preferred to earn their living by the sweat of their brow.  They pay huge sums of money to people to not farm the land.  They have made it so that if you don't play their game, you don't play.  Men like your father were purposely driven out of business by the government.
I am building a horse ranch and the government has programs to pay for wells, fencing, digging ponds and fertilizing and seeding pasture.  If I sign up and play their game, I can get all of this for free.  It galls me to the core but I know that if I don't do it, someone else in competition with me will do it.  I can either take my share of the dirty money or be swamped by my competition.
As for his opinion of the American worker and American businesses, it seems to be slanted in a bigotted sort of way.  For every lazy American worker he has seen or read about, I can find him 50 hard working Americans who will work him into the dust.  Sadly, because of the lazy American myth there are not enough jobs to go around for these people.
And remember something.  Doing the job cheaper is not always better.  Most of the Chinese, Korean, and Mexican made products suck ass.  They are inferior and have to be replaced sooner.  In the long run, they cost us more.

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ORIGINAL: Paulnz

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ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I do believe Paulnz see's things from the point of view from a nation that has to import everything. The United States and The EU can out produce the world into the ground, and make a boatload of money doing it. oh and paul, tell an american farmer about "subsidies" while he goes bankrupt from mexican and canadian imports. happened to my father. 

NZ is a good example of an economy that restructured from being one that was essentially socialist with a complete raft of protections, to a market economy with few protections. If you go back before 1984 and bought something made in NZ, it was like it had been made in the 1950's as the designs were really 1950's. The manufacturing base had stood still as it had no reason to develop - it was protected. The reform brought about change, and a general rise in the standard of living. Subsidies were removed for farmers. Today, farmers receive few handouts. Many went to the wall, and today if they don't run a good business, they go out of business. That's the way the World works. Now, we're a vibrant economy, a hotbed of technological innovation and enterprise. There are few that can match us. If the USA forgets the lessons it will end up without a pot to piss in.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Thanks KD - I actually cut my final paragraph off, which was along the lines of a need to withdraw from this "international global market" thing and reevaluate during a period when we each take care of our own business without the destabilising interference of outside agencies/countries. Problem being with that, it would require us withdrawing our interference in others' affairs too, which isnt going to go down well here with those who make the rules - but then, its about time we made the rules.

What I'm talking about is some sort of "national socialist" approach to the economy (the economy only before I get jumped on) - ie looking after our own first, in competition and cooperation with others as they wish and according to our internal goals. Isolationist for sure, but no need not to trade if it meets some goal we have for our people and country - and no more selling off our family silver (and the recovery of that which has been sold off) to all and sundry who have little interest in the welfare of our people and country.

E

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ORIGINAL: Paulnz

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ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I get the feeling you only know about the US economy from what you have read in some slanted kiwi magazine. Service economies will fail. With out the US to buy saudi crack, they will fail.  Opec may drop the price in short term, but you can gaurntdamntee they'd crank it up and try to put the clamps on. And I don't know of any farmer that expects a handout. If anything, the farmers who would benefit most despise the programs, its agribusiness that gets the money. Try learning about the system. Your arguments make me laugh like a little kid, because you know nothing really beyond NZ. I am not claiming expert status, but living here and seeing things and having my dads farm sold out from under him makes me one compared to you.

Stop making excuses for your fathers failure in business. The taxpayer doesn't owe him a living. He failed because he wasn't good at his job.

What I know about the US economy is from doing business with it and competing with it in third markets. US business is slow to adjust, is pricey, their people are generally ignorant of the outside world, and can't do simple things like think in metric measurements. But what they make is usually solid, if unimaginative. That's it right there really. The more subsidies, bailout packages, and goodness knows what, the more that situation will prevail.

The problem with the USA is it is over regulated, has complex systems, is rife with vested interest groups wanting their wedge, lacks productivity as a result, and is standing still ( going backwards ). More of the same will only make matters worse. The USA will end up a socialist shithole like Europe if they're not careful. The only thing currently keeping the USA's head above water is that 20% earning 80% of the revenue. But that 20% is fast losing patience and getting ready to ditch. The crash will be bigger than anything seen in the last few days. It is a disaster that can be averted by doing the sensible thing; reduce the size of government, lower taxes for the rich and business, maybe eliminate all taxes for business, eliminate all tariffs, simplify regulations and offer few if any government safety blankets. 

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ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Oh yea, Europe is a real shithole.

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ORIGINAL: Paulnz

I was born in NZ. But you're right, the Crown did some stealing here, and we, that is the NZ taxpayer who had no part of the theft by Britain, are compensating the victims. Unlike Europe, who refuse to return the loot.