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NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 9/30/2008 10:00:39 PM

Bethnai

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U.S. District Judge George Daniels said the 2004 lawsuit on behalf of victims and their families can proceed toward trial. It seeks up to $3 billion in damages from attacks between January 2001 and February 2004.
Daniels rejected the PLO's argument that two machine-gun attacks and five bombings were acts of war. The Jerusalem-area attacks killed 33 people and wounded hundreds, including scores of U.S. citizens.
Daniels said the attacks targeted public places — not military or government personnel or interests. Two bombings were on downtown streets; others occurred at a crowded bus stop, a cafeteria at the Hebrew University and a passenger-filled civilian bus.
The use of bombs in these circumstances indicates an intent "to cause far-reaching devastation upon the masses," the judge said, with a "merciless capability of indiscriminately killing and maiming untold numbers in heavily populated civilian areas."
Such attacks "upon non-combative civilians, who were allegedly simply going about their everyday lives, do not constitute acts of war," he said.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gcbB_pT2zbwEX1MGaU_dN8RLMsqAD93H90H80

I wonder if they will actually be able to collect that money. I wonder what repercussions this will have.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 12:13:43 AM

tweedydaddy

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It's all madness. People need to talk, not fight, whether in court or on the streets, look at Ireland and South Africa. Anger cures nothing.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 12:24:26 AM

meatcleaver

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One can't expect a US judge to have a balanced view of a conflict because Americans always see them and us and who us is always depends on America's own interests and who its allie is and not an objective judgement.

Why hasn't the judge condemned the Israeli state for a policy of terrorism against a subjugated people? The Israeli state descriminates and runs an apartheid state against Arabs even if they are Israeli citizens, never mind those it oppresses. However, lets get to the facts. Israel ethnically cleanses Arabs and steals their land (this it has done from its inception), it redirects water from Arab farms to Israeli farms rendering Arab farms useless, it locks people up for years without trial, it destroys homes as a collective punishment, it daily indiscriminately shells Palestinain enclaves, it carries out extra-judicial executions with air to ground missiles with a criminal recklessness that often kills women and children. All these acts are war crimes or crimes against humanity under various international charters. One of the reasons the US insisted Saddam Hussein shouldn't be held accountable under these same laws and charters was because it would invite direct comparison with Israel and American politicians could have been implicated in the subjugation of a people.

Of course Palestinians are resisting, the have no choice to resist, if they didn't resist they wouldn't exist. An Israeli minister has already suggested they(Israel) should carry out a holocaust again st the Palestinians and they probably would if they thought they could get a way with it. Israel kills between four and five Palestinians for every Israeli that is killed so you can see who is doing the killing. As I pointed out in another thread, it was the Israelis that strarted the policy of targeting women and children to murder. There are enough testements by Israeli soldiers of 1947 saying they were ordered to masacre women and children and they gladly did it for their god and country.

If Israel was an Arab country, ignoring the UN like uit does and committing human rights crimes and violations on such a level, the USA would have troops stomping across it by now. However, the world doesn't expect any balanced view coming out of America on this issue, it is aware that US media is so so biased on the issue, that all the average American gets is propaganda on this issue.

Human Rights Watch is an American organisation but I guess it will still be condemned as somehow contaminated with anti-semiticism, the all encompassing defence of the real terrorists.

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=isrlpa

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/

http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/14/84415.shtml

I think on balance the US and Israel should be paying the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are the only subjugated people that are held responsible for the security of their oppressors.

Only the other week in a speech, South African Bishop Desmond Tutu said, Europe is quiet on Israels apalling treatment of the Palestinians out of collective guilt born from the holocaust but must 'get over it and speak out in favour of those that are oppressed no matter where they are.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/1/2008 12:41:02 AM >

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 1:26:41 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

Only the other week in a speech, South African Bishop Desmond Tutu said, Europe is quiet on Israels apalling treatment of the Palestinians out of collective guilt born from the holocaust but must 'get over it and speak out in favour of those that are oppressed no matter where they are.

Most of the Western world is silent about the jackboot tactics of Israel. I think its clear why that is so in the US, why in Europe I do not know. I would have expected elements in France and Spain to be more vociferous on the issue.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/1/2008 1:30:07 AM >

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 5:48:12 AM

Sanity

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Because unlike some people he isn't the judge of everything in the world, only this once specific case.

quote:

Why hasn't the judge condemned the Israeli state for a policy of terrorism against a subjugated people?

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:01:27 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Because unlike some people he isn't the judge of everything in the world, only this once specific case.

quote:

Why hasn't the judge condemned the Israeli state for a policy of terrorism against a subjugated people?

The fact he is an American judge making judgements on something that happened outside America he is making himself judge of the world.

Judicial judgements are made within context. The fact that the judge is American making judgements on events that happened in Israel, means that to make a proper judgement, he should accept the context of the event was within a specific conflict.

I bet if Palestinians tried to sue Israel in the US for similar actions, they wouldn't get very far because the American courts would have pre-judged the situation because of politics.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/1/2008 6:03:00 AM >

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:08:14 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

The fact he is an American judge making judgements on something that happened outside America he is making himself judge of the world.

He is a judge rendering a decision on a matter brought before his court, which, under the Antiterrorism Act of 1991, has the legal competence to rule on the matter.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:11:58 AM

LadyEllen

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So, for those British families who lost members serving in the British Army in Palestine back in the 1940s when Israeli terrorists were making similar attacks with car bombs etc, targeted against public places and designed to kill all and sundry - what recourse and what compensation is available I wonder?

Let us understand that might maketh right

E

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:13:44 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

He is a judge rendering a decision on a matter brought before his court, which, under the Antiterrorism Act of 1991, has the legal competence to rule on the matter.

This is good news indeed for all those citizens of Northern Ireland and the mainland UK who have been killed indiscriminately by Republican terrorists financed by sources in the US.

E

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:14:35 AM

meatcleaver

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Case in point....

Daniels rejected the PLO's argument that two machine-gun attacks and five bombings were acts of war. The Jerusalem-area attacks killed 33 people and wounded hundreds, including scores of U.S. citizens.
Daniels said the attacks targeted public places — not military or government personnel or interests. Two bombings were on downtown streets; others occurred at a crowded bus stop, a cafeteria at the Hebrew University and a passenger-filled civilian bus.

How come the US has never seen a problem, in fact encouraged Israeli in its attack on civilian residences in Lebanon the other year killing more aqround a thousand civilians and causing billions of dollars damage to the infrastructure, all carried out with the courtesy of US military hardware, given in aid to Israel and paid for by US citizens.

The word hypocrisy springs tro mind.

If you want to stop terrorism, stop participating in it.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:16:33 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

The fact he is an American judge making judgements on something that happened outside America he is making himself judge of the world.

He is a judge rendering a decision on a matter brought before his court, which, under the Antiterrorism Act of 1991, has the legal competence to rule on the matter.

Who fucking cares about American laws, American's don't care about anyone elses.

America isn't judge and jury to the world, especially since it wouldn't know objectivity if it fell over it.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:17:42 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

He is a judge rendering a decision on a matter brought before his court, which, under the Antiterrorism Act of 1991, has the legal competence to rule on the matter.

This is good news indeed for all those citizens of Northern Ireland and the mainland UK who have been killed indiscriminately by Republican terrorists financed by sources in the US.

E

Palestinians wouldn't be allowed to sue Israel in an American court, the law is meant to make political judgements of who is and who isn't a freedom fighter and that is a subjective decision.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/1/2008 6:18:43 AM >

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:20:17 AM

JohnWarren

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Who are they going to hire to deliver the summons-to-appear? Rambo?

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:21:47 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

How come the US has never seen a problem, in fact encouraged Israeli in its attack on civilian residences in Lebanon the other year killing more aqround a thousand civilians and causing billions of dollars damage to the infrastructure, all carried out with the courtesy of US military hardware, given in aid to Israel and paid for by US citizens.

The fact that Hezbollah was shooting rockets into Israeli territory while hiding behind those presumptive "civilians" might have had something to do with it. You cannot fault Israel because Hezbollah is captained by cowards.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:26:39 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Palestinians wouldn't be allowed to sue Israel in an American court

Well no shit!

The lawsuit in question was brought by US citizens in a US court alleging they and/or their families were the specific target of a PLO attack. That is a matter for a US court.

The claims and torts of Israelis and Palestinians alike are not justiciable in US courts, except and unless those claims directly involve US citizens or the US government.

That does not mean Palestinians do not have claims to make. It merely means US courts lack the competence to hear those claims.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:29:07 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

How come the US has never seen a problem, in fact encouraged Israeli in its attack on civilian residences in Lebanon the other year killing more aqround a thousand civilians and causing billions of dollars damage to the infrastructure, all carried out with the courtesy of US military hardware, given in aid to Israel and paid for by US citizens.

The fact that Hezbollah was shooting rockets into Israeli territory while hiding behind those presumptive "civilians" might have had something to do with it. You cannot fault Israel because Hezbollah is captained by cowards.

Hezbollah was the baby of the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon in the 80s, they were formed in an effort to resist Israeli occupation, torture, summary arrests and extra-judicial executions. Israel created the organisation they call a monster and now condemn.

However, deliberate killing of civilians and destruction of civilian infrastructure is a war crime, pure and simple and without mitigation. Israel commited and America and lapdog supported war crimes that America and Britian used to put Serbs on trial.

As I said, hypocrisy knows no bounds.

If you want to stop terrorism, stop participating in it.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 6:32:49 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Palestinians wouldn't be allowed to sue Israel in an American court

Well no shit!

The lawsuit in question was brought by US citizens in a US court alleging they and/or their families were the specific target of a PLO attack. That is a matter for a US court.

The claims and torts of Israelis and Palestinians alike are not justiciable in US courts, except and unless those claims directly involve US citizens or the US government.

That does not mean Palestinians do not have claims to make. It merely means US courts lack the competence to hear those claims.

When the court has returned its verdict and we know what it will be, how will it serve the verdict, by proxy through more Israeli state terrorism?

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 8:10:26 AM

meatcleaver

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I'm frustrated as usual over this subject. I can't for the life of me understand why people don't see that by behaving like terrorists we have created terrorists and what we are all going through is a case of what goes around comes around. If we truely want to stop living in a world full of terrorism or more realistically, a world where it is greatly reduced, we shouldn't act like terroists in the first place and stop playing the game. Terrorism in the ME was largely created by the west, we could get rid of it by stop blaming the victims of historical western injustices and try to broker a peace with justice. Saying the deaths of one side are victims and deserving but the victims of the otherside deserve what they get is sterile and will only lead to more deaths.

No doubt it is in the interests of the State (of fear) ie. governments and security agencies to keep people in fear and hence, knowing their place.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 9:36:40 AM

Irishknight

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The only question I have is, "Who is gonna make the PLO pay the fine if they lose?"

The answer is "Nobody." A US court ruling will not affect the PLO at all. They will ignore it because we have no jurisdiction in Palestine. The people filing these lawsuits may be awarded millions in damages but they will NEVER see one thin dime.
To be totally honest, if I was sued in a Palestinian court, I would ignore the verdict in the same way. They have no jurisdiction in this country. Of course, they can appeal the verdict to the US courts but they'll probably have little luck there.

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/1/2008 9:55:14 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

The only question I have is, "Who is gonna make the PLO pay the fine if they lose?"

The answer is "Nobody." A US court ruling will not affect the PLO at all. They will ignore it because we have no jurisdiction in Palestine. The people filing these lawsuits may be awarded millions in damages but they will NEVER see one thin dime.
To be totally honest, if I was sued in a Palestinian court, I would ignore the verdict in the same way. They have no jurisdiction in this country. Of course, they can appeal the verdict to the US courts but they'll probably have little luck there.

If the PLO has any assets within the jurisdiction of the US courts, those assets could be seized towards the settlement of the judgment, should one be obtained.

The reality is, of course, that the plaintiffs are not likely to garner anything more than a moral victory from the lawsuit.

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