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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/4/2008 6:54:04 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Why do you think it is overstated? Where is it overstated?

< Message edited by Bethnai -- 10/4/2008 6:55:17 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/4/2008 10:01:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

Why do you think it is overstated? Where is it overstated?


The zionist philosophy and its plan to establish the state of Israel in Trans-Jordania on the west side of the river Jordan and the zionist solution to the Arab problem were formulated before Hilter and the NAZIs were ever heard of. The Mufti was on the run from the Brits for his support for the Arab insurrection against British rule when he ended up in Germany where he asked for German help. He was against both British rule and zionist plans, his request for help from the NAZIs was a convenience just like the Jewish terrorists group Stern's offer to work with the NAZIs was a convenience. I know the Mufti's request for German help is often pointed out as proof that the Palestinians were anti-semetic but that doesn't wash, for the same money one could say the Jewish terrorists were anti-semitic because they offered to help the Germans too. At the time the Mufti asked the Germans for help he was just a man on the run speaking for no one but himself.

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(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/4/2008 1:01:59 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

The Mufti was on the run from the Brits for his support for the Arab insurrection against British rule when he ended up in Germany where he asked for German help.




The Mufti was 'on the run' for organizing roving hit squads to assassinate among others, Jewish civilians for no other reason than that they were Jews praying to Yahweh, instead of Allah... not because they were part of your imaginary Zionist cabal.

And his 'asking for help' in Germany consisted of asking 'Can't you find any way to kill off the Jews faster than these forced labor camps?' and fomenting the Final Solution, while organizing battalions of Muslim SS troops, according to Nurmberg transcripts, photos, and his own memoirs.

"Our Fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world"

-Grand Mufti of Palestine 1930's
Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini
http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/DalinHitlersMufti.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wailing_Wall

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html

http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/06/10/rise_of_radical_islam_predates_wwii/1381

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1920-21.php

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

http://www.israel-wat.com/g8_eng.htm

http://www.faoa.org/journal/HajjHusseini.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3364

http://www.mideastweb.org/iraqaxiscoup.htm
















< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 10/4/2008 1:02:29 PM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/4/2008 1:10:44 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

The Mufti was on the run from the Brits for his support for the Arab insurrection against British rule when he ended up in Germany where he asked for German help.




The Mufti was 'on the run' for organizing roving hit squads to assassinate among others, Jewish civilians for no other reason than that they were Jews praying to Yahweh, instead of Allah... not because they were part of your imaginary Zionist cabal.

And his 'asking for help' in Germany consisted of asking 'Can't you find any way to kill off the Jews faster than these forced labor camps?' and fomenting the Final Solution, while organizing battalions of Muslim SS troops, according to Nurmberg transcripts, photos, and his own memoirs.

"Our Fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world"

-Grand Mufti of Palestine 1930's
Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini
http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/DalinHitlersMufti.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wailing_Wall

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html

http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/06/10/rise_of_radical_islam_predates_wwii/1381

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1920-21.php

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

http://www.israel-wat.com/g8_eng.htm

http://www.faoa.org/journal/HajjHusseini.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/bosnia.html

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3364

http://www.mideastweb.org/iraqaxiscoup.htm




As I pointed out Alumbrado, his asking help from the Germans and his part in the insurrection was preceeded by the zionists plan to rid the area of Arabs. THAT IS THE ONE THING YOU NEVER ADDRESS, THE PRECEDING PLAN OF THE ZIONISTS TO RID THE AREA OF ARABS. THE ARABS WERE REACTING TO ZIONIST TERRORISM.

You always refuse to address what started the conflict, the zionist plans to set up a state on someone elses land and cleanse that land of its Arab residents. Of course the local Arabs reacted, anyone would.

And what of the Stern group's willingness to help the NAZIs?

It was a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend. The zionists indulged in the same!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/4/2008 1:20:03 PM >

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/4/2008 3:13:30 PM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		The only way to end a fight is to stop fighting and start talking.

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 6:21:02 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		There were only two “terrorist” organizations at that time, one was called Irgun and one was called Lehi (that is the Stern Group). Ben-Gurion was not involved in either of those. He was a member of the Haganah, and it was the Haganah under Ben-Gurion’s direction that went after the perpetrators of Irgun that were bombing the British and turned them in to the British. This is called the Hunting Season. Now, Stern did not like the “Zionists” willingness to work with the British. That would be the reason for the two militia groups that were mentioned. Stern, in his infinite wisdom, thought that he could help defeat Britain by aiding Hitler and, in return, relocate the Jews. So, no, you may not say that Stern was anti-Semetic.
There was no master plan to remove the Arabs living there. No transfer of population. There was no plan for ethnic cleansing and you have not one shred of evidence to support that claim. Further, there was no forcing the Palestinians to leave at gun point. They had been told to leave by Arab leaders, including and predominantly spread by, the “Grand Mufti” to leave their homes. This has been acknowledged. The census that was taken in 1945, and the number of those that stayed, and the census taken afterwards refutes the 750,000 claim. In fact, Ben-Gurion sent out Meir to ask them to stay and not to be afraid.
You are sadly mistaken if you think that Hitler just sat around and all of a sudden came up with the ideas all by himself. Now, he is very, very careful when he wrote Mein Kampf to make it sound as if he was never influenced by anyone else and dreamed this up on his own. However, it was prevalent at the time.

Now, what I will give you is that Begin was a member of Irgun. Shamir was a member of Lehi.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 6:41:09 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		There was a plan for the West Bank to be a Jewish state, why do you think Jewish people suddenly decided they would buy land there and why did the zionists promote illegal immigration from the moment Balfour gave them the green light?

I know why the Stern group offered help to the NAZIs, I said it was for the same reason the Mufti asked for help from the NAZIs, my enemy's enemy is my friend.

There are enough testaments from Israeli soldiers of 1947 who admit on film they were ordered to masacre women and children and drive out the Arab population from the new Israel and were glad to do it. That all comes from the horses mouth.

I know someone whose father was ethnically cleansed at gun point from Haifa in 1947, he was given five minutes to get his wife and children and what he could carry and leave or he would be staying peranently in a grave. My uncle was in the British army stationed in Trans-Jordania at the time and witnessed a lot of ethnic cleansing. The 750,000 ethnically cleansed is a realistic figure and arrived at by many reputable historians.

Ben Gurion is quite telling.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 7:03:49 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Cite your source on the film or at least tell me where they were engaged or at a minimum tell me whether or not you know if those men are affiliated with Irgun or with Lehi.

Cite your source for Ben-Gurion. Page number and all. Cite your source for 750,000. If they are reputable this won't be a problem for you. You do know that if you attempt to use Walid Khalidi, I will shred it.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 7:16:17 AM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on with their normal lives, to get their shops and businesses open and to be assured that their lives and interests will be safe."
- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, (quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz).

"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city.... By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa."
- Time Magazine, May 3, 1948, page 25

“The Arab streets (of Palestine) are curiously deserted (because)…following the poor example of the moneyed class, there has been an exodus from Jerusalem, but not to the same extent as from Jaffa and Haifa” , London Times, 5.5.48

"The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war."
- General John Glubb "Pasha," The London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948

http://winnipeg.indymedia.org/item.php?20846C

(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 9:42:18 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The documentary was a BBC documentary, one of the main production companies and makers of the documentary was Highlight Films which is an Israeli company.

http://highlightfilms.blogspot.com/2008/03/work-on-1948-documentary-film-completed.html

I know what was said in 1948. Since the west was 100% behind the forming of Israel, western media and politicians were going to lie or prefer not to see the truth of the event.

The British told the Arabs to leave for their own safety, this I know because one of my uncle's duties was to warn Arabs that if they stayed they might be killed by the Israelis. Many that chose to stay around Haifa were killed by the Israelis.

The quote by Ben Gurion is in most reputable history books on the subject and even in his biography written by an Israeli historian and is widely available on the web. Ben Gurion was very candid about his plans and what he thought of thr Arabs.

Some photos because ordinary Israelis and politicians have always disputed the numbers, although to their credit, reputable Israeli historians haven't.
http://www.hanini.org/Al-Nakbagallery.html

In fact under UN resolutions and the Geneva convention the refugees should have been allowed back 57 years ago. This is the problem the west and America inparticular has when it tells Arabs they should adhere to UN resolutions, the USA doesn't force its allies to adhere to UN rsolutions which is why the west has no credibility in the Arab world.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Bethnai)
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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 5:06:44 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As I pointed out Alumbrado, his asking help from the Germans and his part in the insurrection was preceeded by the zionists plan to rid the area of Arabs. THAT IS THE ONE THING YOU NEVER ADDRESS, THE PRECEDING PLAN OF THE ZIONISTS TO RID THE AREA OF ARABS. THE ARABS WERE REACTING TO ZIONIST TERRORISM.

You always refuse to address what started the conflict, the zionist plans to set up a state on someone elses land and cleanse that land of its Arab residents. Of course the local Arabs reacted, anyone would.

And what of the Stern group's willingness to help the NAZIs?

It was a case of my enemy's enemy is my friend. The zionists indulged in the same!



And it always comes back to you carrying water for the same revisionist propaganda, in the face of massive links, photos, and well documented history to the contrary.

The long held and often discussed notion that the Jews should eventually have a homeland somewhere is not the Zionist invasion that you keep fabricating, and the lengthy campaign to massacre every Jew going back hundreds of years was not the response to the occurences of 1948 that you keep claiming started all the violence against the Jews.
You are on record as saying that nothing offensive was done to the Jews prior to that date, you've been called on it more than once... and you've shown a pattern of running away, laying low for a while, and then trotting out same party line again, while demanding proof that you said your own words, then also denying those links exist when they are posted. 
It is a tired old sham. 

Your portraying the Grand Mufti as an innocent victim and your insinuation that his Final Solution meetings with the Nazis were just him asking the Germans for a little help with his legal problems are the products of a very twisted perception.

Deny all you want, while the venal politicians both sides are completely and totally at fault for sustaining this current part of the cycle of hatred and violence, the roots lie in anti-semitic genocide over the centuries, far more than in the geo-politics of the last 6 decades.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 10/5/2008 5:11:31 PM >

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RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/5/2008 10:45:58 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		In the context of this conflict, Arabs never did anything to the Jews prior. It was the eaast European zionist legal and illegal immigration into the region that caused the conflict. Because, according to the testaments of both indiginous Jews and Arabs of the region, they lived in mixed communities, spoke each others languages and their children grew up together. I know that doesn't sit well with people like you who like to demonize all Arabs because it suits your cause but it is a fact and there have been enough Jewish natives to the area that have backed that up.

You want to blame Arabs, smear them with European anti-semiticism and demonize them because it will in your mind justify the theft of their land. As Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu pointed out the other week, the Palestinians are being made to pay for  European guilt and the Europeans should be ashamed of themselves for keeping quiet as the Palestinians are robbed and brutalized.

The Mufti isn't an innocent victim, I'm pointing out that he is no more guilty and probably less so than most of the Israeli terrorist leaders because he was native to the region, the Jewish terrorist leaders weren't!!! They were there to steal land from the Arabs. Gurion says as much as do succeeding Israeli Prime Ministers who were also terrorists. If you want to demonize people, demonize the right people. It was European christians that persecuted Jews over the centuries, not Arabs, even if the Israeli state is making the Arabs of Palestine pay.

Read your history, ask yourself why the huge growth in the Jewish population in the region from 1880 to 1948 through legal and illegal imigration. The zionist idea of making Israel in Palestine was there from the beginning, there is far too much documentation to deny it. Of course the Arabs in the region reacted, everyone would react to having their land stolen and their culture destroyed from foreign settlers. Or perhaps being American and having done the same to the native people there you don't mind that people steal other people's land, maybe it justifies in your mind your existence or maybe you think if someone is too weak to hold onto their land, they don't deserve it.

Blame the real people that were guilty of anti-semiticism for being anti-semitic, don't blame people it is convenient to blame because you want something of their for your self.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/5/2008 10:46:46 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/6/2008 12:13:03 PM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		meatcleaver,
Just to let you know, I emailed Highlights your argument and that you cited that company as your source.  I did this after searching for the ability to purchase the DVD and see for myself.
The reply that I received was that his company provided the production services in Israel and the Palestinian West Bank and that  he was not involved in the editing. He did state that he had seen the finished the product and that he did not recall anything that would support your claim.

However, I guess you have been down this road with others before. I am not going to beat my head against a brick wall. At least for the moment or until boredom strikes.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/6/2008 1:45:29 PM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

The only way to end a fight is to stop fighting and start talking.



Or shoot them in the head.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: NY judge: PLO can't disguise terror as war - 10/7/2008 9:38:26 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Worth a read. He doesn't take my side of the story nor yours.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1210454063

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Avnery

If the company made the documentary I watched and I believe it is, there are Israeli soldiers that claimed they killed women and children, several rationalized but one was obviously upset and still troubled by what he said he was ordered to do and did in his youth.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/7/2008 9:41:34 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Bethnai)
Profile   Post #: 55
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