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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:03:12 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I wouldnt deny them anything - because it isn't up to me.  My point was that there are any number of beliefs/faith/religion not just down to a single one and that salvation isn;t always a given depending on the doctrine.

I guess it's possible that someone believes in something that will not guarantee them a positive potential outcome...but it seems rather odd. I'd be curious to see someone like this. I mean, seriously, who actively chooses a belief that 'spiritually' screws them and leaves them without the means for salvation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

But you cannot know what they are for an individual that is what I was suggesting.  You say that faith provides comfort.  You say it as though it is the absolute truth.  I can say that would not be the case for everyone of faith.

I say it as an anthropological assessment of human psychology. Just as we can boil down any human's actions and thoughts in life to: "S/he acts towards what will makes him/her happiest and bring the least amount of unwilling pain."

Everyone may interpret what they do for different reasons.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

It is.  For many people.  Just because you haven't touched or felt something solid does not negate that others have.  You cannot demand that a person has not experienced a sensory experience with something.  Just because you have not - does not make it so for others.

We can't freely use the word "touch" in terms of it's figurative meaning (e.g. "I was touched by his kindness!"). You used the word "tangible"...which implies materialistic reality. By definition, the metaphysical (faith, gods, faeries, ghosts...) are not tangible and no believer has ever presented tangible evidence of these things.

People can believe they've experienced sensory evidence (folks on acid probably have many stories of seeing and touching pink elephants with angel wings), but in order for it to be "tangible" it has to be consistently provable. Not just in their heads, but in the senses of everyone.

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I never suggested you had.  It was more a general statement.

Gotcha. Wasn't actually bothered by it or anything.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:04:16 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

let people live as they want to.

Would you be so kind as to inform us who here is not doing that?



claiming to be an anti-theist and laping at the teat of hitchens is annoying. the title claims that you are diametrically opposed to any worship of a diety - it's just as bad as being a theist.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:06:47 AM   
Musicmystery


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Nihilus,

The attention whores are not natural beings. They feed on typing---it matters not what, and their zeal prevents them from true reading.

Good luck!



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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:07:25 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Is it a reasonable conclusion, then, that the theists should also go fuck themselves and let people live as they want to... and if they try to foist their beliefs on others (including by acts of war thinly disguised as 'nationalism') that the remaining world is welcome to hoist them on their own petards or exterminate their lives at will?


yes, they should. however, let's not confuse ourselves. it is not 'theists' that are pushing a war thinly disguised as 'nationalism' - it is our 'elected rulers'. let's not blame your average church goer for something they did not have a part in.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:10:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

let's not blame your average church goer for something they did not have a part in.


Does voting solely for the sake of religious beliefs count?

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:12:51 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
This is what gives idiots a bad name.

I know that my friend is not an idiot, so I surmise that it is your opinion that the people that got eaten by vampires, werewolves, cynocephali, Bigfoot, pooka, and such are idiots that have a bad name? That may possibly be true in some cases, I suppose.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:15:53 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Are you familiar with Siddartha Gautama? Mother Teresa? Mahatma Gandhi?

I am. Apparently you are not.

Is that the best you could do? You couldn't recite the first of the Four Noble Truths, could you?  Mothere Teresa interpretation of suffering as necessary for growth, spiritually, is well know. Perhaps a recounting she told of what she said to a terminally ill cancer patient in the final throes of its anguish would remind you: "
"You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you".

Mahatma Gandhi is just as well known for his asceticism which is a willing surrender to self-suffering.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

To want something is making a spiritual effort.

This doesn't even merit a logical response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
A theistic deity is one that has his/her hands and thought constantly meddling/affecting our lives.

Oh, you are talking about yourself, not about the Divine or any of the incarnate gods. Or perhaps you are talking about your wife or mother in law?

You are starting to make less sense...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
A deistic one would just answer the question of initial causation, after which the deity would was its hands of concern for its creation.

So your father abandoned your mother after he had his way with her? And you grew up as a single parent person? (I just know that you are not talking about any of the gods.)

Really? How many gods are you familiar with, precisely? If you don't understand what a theistic god versus a deistic god is, you're either parading some Jungian concept of pantheism or being deliberately vacuous in your definition of "god".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

You presume too much. To which I will add that I am unable to interpret your sentence in a way that makes sense to me.

That is apparent, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
what do you think "salvation" is?

Buy a dictionary. (They are sold in bookshops.)


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/salvation

"the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc."

Not related to comfort at all, no.



< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/3/2008 11:22:32 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:16:12 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Does voting solely for the sake of religious beliefs count?


I don't think so. this assumes that the politician has promised the voter something, the voter responds by giving the politician support, and the politician actually does it.

which is a rare scenario. but let's look at it like this, my parents voted for bush as they though he was a good christian. he also said things like having a less aggressive foreign policy and shrinking government, which they agreed with. if they vote for him, are the responsible for unforseen consequences like the patriot act or the iraq war?

in the end, though, democracy is an awful idea. under a system of noncoercion and free association...people would be held responsible for their own actions and not afforded the opportunity of passing responsibility off to other agents.


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:20:47 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

claiming to be an anti-theist

Which I have not done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

and laping at the teat of hitchens

You think Hitchens is the only source of information on Mother Teresa (I suspect, that's what you were referencing as that is what he is most famous for)? You don't think historians...even her peers, admit she viewed suffering as necessary?

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

is annoying. the title claims that you are diametrically opposed to any worship of a diety

What title? I mentioned no title for you to make nonsensical, irrelevant presumptions from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

- it's just as bad as being a theist.

Actually, my opinion is that strawmen (and those prone to use them for tactical discussion) are "worse" than theists.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/3/2008 11:23:25 AM >


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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:32:49 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

let's not blame your average church goer for something they did not have a part in.


Does voting solely for the sake of religious beliefs count?


.....tricky. It's difficult to compartmentalise belief. Perhaps a better example would be voting a particular way because the leader of a given church tells one to vote that way......

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:32:49 AM   
DesertRat


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~fr~
I'm not militant about my beliefs. I just live my life as if there's no god or 'higher power'. I look at the world around me and think it's all pretty amazing but the existence and workings of this world and my place in it do not require any type of god mechanism.

Bob 

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:34:26 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Does voting solely for the sake of religious beliefs count?


I don't think so. this assumes that the politician has promised the voter something, the voter responds by giving the politician support, and the politician actually does it.


No, it doesn't. The VOTER assumes the promise, and, unburdened by closer examination, responds by blind affiliation.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:35:02 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

To want something is making a spiritual effort.


...that makes no sense whatsoever, unless you are defining spiritual in an entirely solipsistic sense. You know, the thing about language is that it employs agreed upon meanings.......

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:52:32 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Does voting solely for the sake of religious beliefs count?


I don't think so. this assumes that the politician has promised the voter something, the voter responds by giving the politician support, and the politician actually does it.


No, it doesn't. The VOTER assumes the promise, and, unburdened by closer examination, responds by blind affiliation.


And another point here is that the written platforms of the party and candidate provide, in essence, a written 'contract' between that party/candidate and the constituency... and if you read the platforms at the candidate, state, and national level, you will note that there are specific platform points related to -nothing- but the enforcement of certain religious moral codes that are intended to be forced on the entire population regardless of the individual's beliefs or lack thereof.

While I would say that each individual has the rights to vote according to hir conscience, I also believe that the attempt to enforce some of the promises of party platforms defies the Constitutionality of those platforms and -is-, in fact, an attempt to cram the morality and beliefs of one religious group on the general population.

As an example -- despite it being a tenet of the temple to which I belong that people may form any familial structure that nurtures the growth of the individuals within, the "free" USA, and, in particular, the party platforms at the National, State, and individual level for one party/group, based on pressure from religious doctrine to which I do not ascribe, denies me the right to legally enter into any family that is not One Man, One Woman -- which flies -directly- in the face of my religious rights... on an issue that does not impact anyone outside of our own household (nor does my choice to have a same-gender mate, or multiple mates cause harm to anyone else!).

On the other hand, in a state where religion is irrelevant to the practice of governance, if a church required its members to be married One Man, One Woman, they could be that way... if another church allowed a man up to six wives and six women agreed, he could abide by his church's tenets on the matter... and if a person chose to have NO religious affiliation and have a dozen mates of mixed genders, and everyone agreed to that arrangement, there is NO rational, legal reason why such a thing could not be accepted -and- that proper legal arrangements to protect all individuals involved could not be established.

Calla Firestorm


< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/3/2008 11:53:21 AM >


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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 11:58:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
This is what gives idiots a bad name.

I know that my friend is not an idiot, so I surmise that it is your opinion that the people that got eaten by vampires, werewolves, cynocephali, Bigfoot, pooka, and such are idiots that have a bad name? That may possibly be true in some cases, I suppose.


Can he get a message to the Tooth Fairy for me? I have some questions about the current financial situation.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 12:05:23 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Is that the best you could do?

It was all the answer you wanted, not so?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

You couldn't recite the first of the Four Noble Truths, could you?

Naw, but I know where to look it up.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Mother Teresa interpretation of suffering as necessary for growth, spiritually, is well known.
Perhaps a recounting she told of what she said to a terminally ill cancer patient in the final throes of its anguish would remind you: ""You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you".

Do not you recognize a nut when you see her? Search in this forum for the thread "Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul". I suppose such an evil woman does perform a specific function in Creation, but...

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Mahatma Gandhi is just as well known for his asceticism which is a willing surrender to self-suffering.

If that is his desire, and in this he followed the example of the incarnate gods, then who are you to criticize him?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This doesn't even merit a logical response.

I am the guy at the cross-roads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

You are starting to make less sense...

I was merely trying to make sense of your statements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

How many gods are you familiar with, precisely?

I am fairly knowledgable, thank you.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

If you don't understand what a theistic god versus a deistic god is

You did not notice that I applied your own definitions to those concepts, did you?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

you're either parading some Jungian concept of pantheism or being deliberately vacuous in your definition of "god".

If you had read my posts, you might have noticed that I persistently ask people to define what they mean when they refer to the concept God. So far none of them has complied. I know what I am talking about. They do not.
 
As for yourself: frequently I have no idea what you are talking about. It is my experience that in such cases the persons using the difficult language do not comprehend what they are talking about either, and express themselves in such goobledygook in the hope that their audience will not notice their lack of knowledge and be impressed instead by their use of latin or pseudolatin words. I suspect that such is the case here.
 
Cannot you talk in comprehensible language?
 

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 12:14:19 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Can he get a message to the Tooth Fairy for me?

That is a weird question. I am not going to introduce you to him.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 12:19:33 PM   
Rule


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You are wise, DR.

< Message edited by Rule -- 10/3/2008 12:20:03 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 12:50:39 PM   
RCdc


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Goodness, its rare to find someone who can discuss like you Nihilus - you are a complete breath of fresh air.  So cool.

quote:

I mean, seriously, who actively chooses a belief that 'spiritually' screws them and leaves them without the means for salvation?


What if, someones faith isn't built on being saved.  It's built on having the faith that the deity they believe in does what they do for the greater good, not for their salvation?  What if they accept their 'sin' and cannot change it, but accept that they practise what they do - knowing that this will probably be sent to whatever hell is?

quote:

You used the word "tangible"...which implies materialistic reality. By definition, the metaphysical (faith, gods, faeries, ghosts...) are not tangible and no believer has ever presented tangible evidence of these things.

People can believe they've experienced sensory evidence (folks on acid probably have many stories of seeing and touching pink elephants with angel wings), but in order for it to be "tangible" it has to be consistently provable. Not just in their heads, but in the senses of everyone.


Again - it comes down to what 'proof' is needed.  If someone walked up to you one day, maybe even someone you know and care about - and they told you they were gay.  Would you want proof?  Now, the same question again only this time substitute it with angel(as an example seeing as most people focus on christianity of some sort in these discussions).  Would you want proof?  Why is their word not enough for you - unless you are attempting to be converted or be introduced into a gay relationship depending on the scenarios above, it shouldn't matter and their word accepted.
 
the.dark.






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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 12:59:02 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I guess it's possible that someone believes in something that will not guarantee them a positive potential outcome...but it seems rather odd. I'd be curious to see someone like this. I mean, seriously, who actively chooses a belief that 'spiritually' screws them and leaves them without the means for salvation?


Usually, someone who spent most of their childhood being abused in the name of religion.

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