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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 3:19:23 PM   
lazarus1983


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

i think we have two seperate phenomena here. On the one hand is simple personal belief. i would argue here that no proof is either desireable or necessary in such cases. What happens in ones heart or head is up to them.
On the other hand are those who seek to convert, or have society accept their beliefs as truths. In the latter case then proof is necessary. In much the same way as science requires proof. If someone wants me to act as if their version of Godhood is irrefutably true then they damn well do have to prove it.


Be careful, when cornered, they will often resort to the "it's open to interpretations!" argument. Completely ignoring the fact that if they openly admit that their beliefs are open to interpretation, then how can they be so sure that their interpretation is right?

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 3:24:04 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
The question I've always had is... "Why?"
Why bother to create the universe in the first place?
What purpose does it serve?
According to Egyptian mythology the Creator created the other gods and men in order to no longer be alone. It is legitimate to extrapolate this motivation of one of the incarnate gods to the Divine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber
Could it be that creating a universe where life and intelligence could develop is just a starting point?

Maybe. The Creation has not yet been completed, though. Mankind is still very much an unfinished species.

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 3:27:49 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark 
Peach -  I get the burden of proof analagy and it rocks, I agree with Nihilus.  I dont know is I am being dense or nt clear though.  See, if someone is prooving because they are attempting to convert - I get where the burden of proof comes into it.  But if you are simply stating a personal experience, then it doesnt work out as a viable thang for me.  It's a bit like the whole - 'Im submissive' / 'No your not, proove it' arguement.
 
 
 
Exactly, Dark.  Some things within human experience aren't Meant to be provable.  They are matters of Faith.  Faith requires that you (general) leap beyond Fact and into the Unknown/Unknowable with eyes wide open and simply Accept.  Faith is something which cannot be explained, passed along, or reasoned - it simply exists, in and of itself, ;acking evidence for or against.  Those who have it will use every positive throughout history as "proof" that it's well founded.  Those without it will use every negative to do the opposite.  Neither is correct.

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 10/2/2008 3:28:17 PM >

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RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 3:33:09 PM   
lazarus1983


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Status: offline 		That argument brings to mind some words of the late, great, Robert A. Heinlein:

  • A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 4:02:40 PM   
    hizgeorgiapeach


    Posts: 1672
    Status: offline     		Laz, it's one of Heinlein's statements that I absolutely agree with.  Personally, I have little room in my life for blind Anything - faith or otherwise.  I leave even less room for Religion in the most commonly accepted definition of that particular term as it applies these days.  Whether you or I hold Faith as a particular Virtue or not, however, it's existance is fact, and there are things (such as religious belief) that can only be rationally ascribed to it.

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 4:32:00 PM   
    Aneirin


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    Status: offline     		In answer to no one in particular, perhaps the makers of the Vimanas have some idea;

    http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Vimanas.htm

    And again, to no one in particular, why is it a need for someone to find evidence and prove their belief, can you not accept that everyone is entitled to their belief and need not explain or prove it to others? What should be of concern, is how the person interacts with the questioner and other people. If no one is harmed, let it be.


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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 4:34:25 PM   
    Rule


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lazarus1983
    it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong.

    Religion is not about comforting only. So that blanket statement is extremely limited in its scope. It is about salvation, both secular and eternal. The strong - i.e those that predate on the innocents - do not grasp that and are the big loosers. Thus religion is even more appropriate for the strong - and thus the statement when erroneously extrapolated to all tenets of a religion is plain wrong.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lazarus1983
    The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.

    More Heinlein nonsense. The New Testament literally says:
     
    "21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil."  (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22)
     
    Meaning that all christians are counseled to always examine also their accepted propositions, as well - if they are capable of such - as to arduously perform scientific research.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lazarus1983
    One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.

    And yet more preposterous Heinlein nonsense.
     
    Spiritualism and science are as yin and yang. Anyone that is sensitive to only one of those aspects of reality is functional in that respect, but impoverished indeed in the other respect.
    It is perfectly possible to be both spiritually aware and to live in a universe of pure physics.
     
    So this great Heinleinesk wisdom proves to be a stacking of three incorrect assertions.

    < Message edited by Rule -- 10/2/2008 4:35:59 PM >

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 5:05:48 PM   
    kittinSol


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule

    Is this in reply to kittinsol? Why do you reply to her when you address me? (We have an understanding, at her request, that I do not read her posts, so I am a bit lost now.)



    What?!!! Rule, it's you who put me on block (much to my chagrin), precisely because of a disagreement over a theological matter. Something to do with Judaism, if I remember rightly.

    Oh hold on... you can't read this  .

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 5:32:36 PM   
    NihilusZero


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule

    Religion is not about comforting only.... It is about salvation, both secular and eternal.

    Which puts it squarely back into the realm of comfort, as the "salvation" offered is only needed because it is prefaced, by the very same religion, by the declaration of our sinfulness.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule
     
    Meaning that all christians are counseled to always examine also their accepted propositions, as well - if they are capable of such - as to arduously perform scientific research.

    There are indeed theists that do not entirely forsake their intellectual capacities. However, your quotation of a scripture that promotes skepticism still rides the presumption that it should be followed precisely because, as wording in the bible, it must be so.

    To be fair, one would have to take that quip and turn it upon the very source it is gleaned from.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule

    It is perfectly possible to be both spiritually aware and to live in a universe of pure physics.


    Of course it is. We cannot escape the fact that we live in a universe of pure physics. This says nothing of the reliability of spiritual postulations.


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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 5:57:20 PM   
    Rule


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    Which puts it squarely back into the realm of comfort, as the "salvation" offered is only needed because it is prefaced, by the very same religion, by the declaration of our sinfulness.
     
    Duh! They are manuals intended to reduce suffering here on Earth. Simply consider all the hurt people, the sick people and the murdered and starving innocents. Ending that suffering is the secular salvation that is offered - but it can be gotten only by making an exertion to stop that suffering. It has nothing to do with comfort: it is about working to achieve a goal.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule
    However, your quotation of a scripture that promotes skepticism still rides the presumption that it should be followed precisely because, as wording in the bible, it must be so.
    Where do you get that from? I said it was a counsel. I did not say that they were obliged to act on it. Indeed, logic requires that the counsel itself be examined - and may be rejected.

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule
    To be fair, one would have to take that quip and turn it upon the very source it is gleaned from.
     
    So, what is stopping you?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule
    This says nothing of the reliability of spiritual postulations.

    Quite. Neither does it say anything about the scientific hypothesis that the Moon is made from Swiss cheese and that the holes in it were made by Moon mice.

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 6:08:59 PM   
    NihilusZero


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Rule

    Duh! They are manuals intended to reduce suffering here on Earth. Simply consider all the hurt people, the sick people and the murdered and starving innocents. Ending that suffering is the secular salvation that is offered - but it can be gotten only by making an exertion to stop that suffering. It has nothing to do with comfort: it is about working to achieve a goal.

    Habitually, cases of suffering are welcomed and readily translated into tests of some spiritual nature. If we are to believe in a theistic deity, they are actively chosen events perpetrated upon innocent people to bolster a sense of devotion.

    And all this is done precisely to ensure a comfort: the "salvation" of our next life.

    Sure, religion can encompass many different roles in a person's life and can assuage numerous different fears and can be molded to be whatever the individual wants...so perhaps, on the surface, it isn't entirely about solace. But, at the base, that is what the lowest common denominator is.


    < Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/2/2008 6:09:12 PM >

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/2/2008 6:48:09 PM   
    variation30


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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 1:06:41 AM   
    RCdc


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    And all this is done precisely to ensure a comfort: the "salvation" of our next life.

    Sure, religion can encompass many different roles in a person's life and can assuage numerous different fears and can be molded to be whatever the individual wants...so perhaps, on the surface, it isn't entirely about solace. But, at the base, that is what the lowest common denominator is.



    I had to go to bed!  I have read the continuing discussion and just highlighted the above because it includes statements made by a couple of othes.
    That having a faith isn't always a crutch.  It can be completely the opposite.  Comfort and solace?  Not always.  And salvation isn't a given.  A few church visits, hale marys, fastings, the odd jihad, hugging a tree and not squishing that little ant isn't going to guarentee anything.  Faith and belief can be a hard taskmaster.
    Sometimes faith or religion is a way to self improvement.  I know it always comes down to atheists Vs christianity.  I am trying to avoid focusing on one single religion - there are multiple faiths - including satanism which is a faith in itself.  I find it uncomfortable when people start throwing around the comfort 'n' crutch statement because it becomes obvious that people haven't had significant experience with people of different faiths.  It kind of weakens their argument to make such a statement and sometimes it would just be (and yes I am going to use my least favourite word)  'nice' to have a discussion with and about those with faith and those without faith - without it coming down to 'comfort', 'proof' or 'illusion'.
     
    It can be said that non faith people could be blinded by their own 'illusions'. I find that a horrible assumption just as it is being horrible in reverse.  It's not an illusion - it's a belief (or non belief) and something very tangible for many people - whether is it one single entity, or a number of animal type gods or a holy person or some spiritual awareness or the environment around them or simply nothing at all.
     
    I guess it's just me.  I simply get a really sad feeling when I see people bringing it down to 'those people' or 'those kinds ' and a sensation of sadness when people start pointing fingers at any belief or non belief and start grouping it all together under one banner and start second guessing why someone has either thought instead of listening and asking a single person what it means to them.
     
    the.dark.

    < Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/3/2008 1:09:13 AM >

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 1:13:23 AM   
    Rule


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    Habitually, cases of suffering are welcomed
    Nonsense. People do not appreciate being ill nor starving and such suffering. They definitely do not welcome it. Neither do religions.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    and readily translated into tests of some spiritual nature.
    So what? To end or endure any suffering a spiritual effort is necessary: namely to be determined not to be deterred by it. You appear to be illogically objecting to evident truth.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    If we are to believe in a theistic deity,
    What is a theistic deity as opposed to a non-theistic deity or perhaps an anti-theistic deity? Are you referring to the Divine or to an incarnate god?
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    they are actively chosen events perpetrated upon innocent people to bolster a sense of devotion.
    Are you implying that Bush is a theistic deity since 911?
    Are you referring to the Divine or to one of the incarnate gods? If the latter, then which god? (If the former you are plain wrong.)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    And all this is done precisely to ensure a comfort: the "salvation" of our next life.
    I am losing track here. Who is doing this specifically? The theistic deity, you say? Or are you now talking about someone or something else? If the latter: what or whom?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
    Sure, religion can encompass many different roles in a person's life and can assuage numerous different fears and can be molded to be whatever the individual wants...so perhaps, on the surface, it isn't entirely about solace. But, at the base, that is what the lowest common denominator is.
    They are about what I said it was: they are manuals to secular and spiritual salvation. Most are in some ways out of date manuals - but in other ways they are still relevant. Solace has nothing to do with it.

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 1:20:33 AM   
    Rule


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    Status: offline     		Excellent post, the.dark.

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 1:31:15 AM   
    dreamerdreaming


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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 5:05:32 AM   
    atursvcMaam


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

    it is better to believe in God, otherwise, this is all your fault.

    It may certainly be "prettier" for some to believe in an ethereal alibi for their life experiences.

    This, however, is an appeal to emotion and does nothing to support the logical proposition of a theistic deity.



    God once said, "it doesn't really matter who built the church, I made the sun shine".
    There are too many wonderful and too many mundane things which happen in this world to lend any logical credence to "it just happened."
    i wish to have someone to thank that Women are inherently beautiful, and that, at least in my humble experience, tend to have a sweeter aroma and more pleasant appearance than goats (or men).
    i want to have someone to thank for my ability to discern and enjoy those differences. 
    i want to have someone to thank for the peace that the ocean brings to my soul.
    i want to have someone to curse, or question about events in my life that make little or no sense to me.  (details of which are probably not appropriate for public consumption)
    in order to maintain my own sanity and gentle good nature, i am at peace feeling that some of my questions will get answered in an afterlife, as they are unlikely to be answered to my satisfaction in this stage of my existence.


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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 6:38:22 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: bipolarber

    Pure atheisim is it's own religion, in a way. And, like all other religions, it seeks comfort in absolute certainty about a single train of thought. Yet, that train of thought may not reflect the reality of our situation than any other religion based on "making shit up."

    They believe that there is no possibility...  I just can't subscribe to such an absolute point of view without all the information being available.




    I don't think this is true. I think it was Dawkins who said ''I'm gullible when I'm given testable evidence.". I took him to mean, there is nothing to believe in until there is evidence of something to believe in. Whay conjure up some fantasy to fill a gap in our knowledge?

    It is true, by our very nature we only see edited highlights of the universe because we have evolved to inhabit a niche in the universe so inevitably it is probable that even if we manage to survive our own self destructiveness as a species and survive for millions of years, we will never have all the answers.

    The age old problem with god, is that as a being he/she/it is supernatural so where does the supernatural come from, who created god? The idea of something appearing out of nothing is there, the supernatural came out of nothing so why can't the universe come out of nothing? We will never have the answer, perhaps the universe as always existed in one form or another. It is still no reason to conjure up a fantasy to explain what cannot be explained.

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 6:59:37 AM   
    Rule


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
    I think it was Dawkins who said ''I'm gullible when I'm given testable evidence.".
    I do not want to be gullible even when I'm given testable evidence.
     
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
    I took him to mean, there is nothing to believe in until there is evidence of something to believe in.

    It is the point of view of someone who is not spiritually aware, i.e. someone who is severely handicapped in that respect. Just as someone who is colourblind is handicapped in that particular way. He may think that he is completely normal and not handicapped at all, but nevertheless he cannot see the colour blue. He probably thinks that either those who do see the colour blue are conspiring to lie to him, or is convinced that they have some paranormal ability. Obviously Dawkins is severely handicapped where spiritual awareness is concerned. And you are as gullible as to belief what he tells you about the colour blue? Which he cannot see himself!

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
    Why conjure up some fantasy to fill a gap in our knowledge?

    It isn't a fantasy. You simply perceive it as a fantasy because it is not something that you can comprehend.
     
    Other than that: good post, mc.

    < Message edited by Rule -- 10/3/2008 7:18:59 AM >

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    RE: Any atheists here? - 10/3/2008 7:52:25 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    Status: offline     		Rule, I wish I was on what you are on. I´ve scoured all Amsterdam and can´t find anything as mind expanding as you obviously have. You´ll have to post me your secret.

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