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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 9:42:45 AM

scottjk

Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

Keep thinking along those lines, Mike. Ignore the negative posters. :) You can tell who actually read your post and those who couldn't be bothered. Must be an attentional issue. :)

Rock on. :)

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to kiwisub12)

Post #: 21

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 11:01:43 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

The more and more I see individuals engage in discussion of what is or isn't Dominance or Mastery. The more I see that the discussion centre more around a difference in ethics, principles and values than Dominance or Mastery itself. In general, I have found when you strip things down, people tend to have a common idea that Dominance and Mastery. It being at it's core of one person having authority, control and/or power over another. But it's when you start to expand it's meanig to you that you grab onto ethical values that one holds to in their practice of Dominance or Mastery over another. I would say it also reflects to a person motivations and objectives for engaging into these types of realtioships that are largely rooted in the person's ethics.

I enjoyed your analogy of owning an object is much more complex than owning the living breathing, feeling, thinking of a human being. We can all go into the depths of owning a book and show that it means more than just an effortless acquiring of a thing. People are missing the point when they get lost in such things. I see the entire thrust of your post about the comparison of the three. The Book, The Falcon, The Slave. As you make the comparison... I see the ethical nature of each become more and more important in the exercise of mastery on ownership as you see it.

I think owneship of anything can reflect the ethics, princples and values of the owner. It also can express many other things as well. I share much of your particular view of "Ethical Mastery", however, there are other views of Mastery that are just as valid for others... I just find their ethics to be mmmmm distasteful. I am of course not afraid to speak against such approaches to Mastery or Dominance... it is part of my ethics!

I think it is important that people understand that Mastery or Dominance itself is very narrow. But it is the goals, desires, motivations, ethics, principles, values and many other things that fill out the exercise of Dominance or Mastery of another. All those things that surround the Mastery in ownership is just as important if not more so than the Mastery itself. If you have fundamental disagreement... the relationship is going to be dysfunctional... regardless of who is Master and who is slave.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 22

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 12:03:19 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

Keep thinking along those lines, Mike. Ignore the negative posters. :) You can tell who actually read your post and those who couldn't be bothered. Must be an attentional issue. :)

Rock on. :)

I'm sure Mike is big enough to stand his own corner when issued with an opposing view - that's part and parcel of debate -make a point, accept the challenge, push the strength of your argument.

I take Mike's central point to be this: his objective of ownership amounts to providing a secure environment so that his partner can employ her reason in all security, unshackled by constraint. An admirable concept. The OP, however, spoils it as per usual with the leading paragraphs insinuating that others aren't quite in his class.

Anyway, I think Mike raises an interesting point in an unintended fashion. Mike aims to set his woman free. Well, I for one would like to hear more of his intentions and actions in this regard because from where I'm standing, not many people are employing their reason in all security.......

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to scottjk)

Post #: 23

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 12:23:32 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

Rethinking after reading everything.

What I mean is that I read the first part of NorthernGent's post and said something. Then I read it all and would rather not say anything. Peace.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 10/4/2008 12:29:35 PM >

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 24

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 12:39:49 PM

scottjk

Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

Keep thinking along those lines, Mike. Ignore the negative posters. :) You can tell who actually read your post and those who couldn't be bothered. Must be an attentional issue. :)

Rock on. :)

I'm sure Mike is big enough to stand his own corner when issued with an opposing view - that's part and parcel of debate -make a point, accept the challenge, push the strength of your argument.

I take Mike's central point to be this: his objective of ownership amounts to providing a secure environment so that his partner can employ her reason in all security, unshackled by constraint. An admirable concept. The OP, however, spoils it as per usual with the leading paragraphs insinuating that others aren't quite in his class.

Anyway, I think Mike raises an interesting point in an unintended fashion. Mike aims to set his woman free. Well, I for one would like to hear more of his intentions and actions in this regard because from where I'm standing, not many people are employing their reason in all security.......

I'd re-examine the concept of debate, sir. Too often, many people believe that the goal of the debate is to win, no matter the cost. My view on the practice of debate is to discover the truth in the topic, or to learn more about it, rather than to convince everyone that they are right. More often than not, those that practice the latter are the losers, rather than the former.

Mike's central point, in my opinion, was that owning something for the sake of ownership is utterly pointless. It's what you do with your property is what counts in the long run.

If you don't read the book, it has no more value than the materials it's made of. Reading the book will expand your experience, knowledge and understanding. By reading, you've chosen to apply the book for what it's made for.

The same applies to the pet. Just owning the pet is pointless if that is all you do. Make it a well behaved companion, and you own something far more than just an animal that you own.

Again, apply this to the slave you own. Put a collar on her and claim her with no more intentions, and it would be utterly pointless. Provide training, discipline and direction, and the slave becomes far more than what you've collared. A companion, a lover, an aide as well as a devoted slave.

Ownership for the sake of ownership has no practical use in life. Unless you're a museum. :)

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 25

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 12:56:48 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

Mike's central point, in my opinion, was that owning something for the sake of ownership is utterly pointless. It's what you do with your property is what counts in the long run.

I agree with your second sentence, but I take that as a given and not particularly enlightening.

The key point for me is Mike's intentions with regard to his woman: he aims to set her free so she can live in all happiness, or something along those lines. 'Admirable, but I'd like to hear the ins and outs.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to scottjk)

Post #: 26

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 12:59:47 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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KoM,

As always, you see things rather clearly, even if I can't.

quote:

I see the entire thrust of your post about the comparison of the three. The Book, The Falcon, The Slave. As you make the comparison... I see the ethical nature of each become more and more important in the exercise of mastery on ownership as you see it.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 27

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 1:02:16 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

The key point for me is Mike's intentions with regard to his woman: he aims to set her free so she can live in all happiness, or something along those lines. 'Admirable, but I'd like to hear the ins and outs.

Now HERE is real and absolutely vital question and one quite challenging! I will have to come back to this later this weekend but I will ponder some of that as it deserves a thoughtful response. Not only that, it is a question I often pose to those who post overblown hyperbole.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 28

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 1:07:06 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

Keep thinking along those lines, Mike. Ignore the negative posters. :) You can tell who actually read your post and those who couldn't be bothered. Must be an attentional issue. :)

Rock on. :)

People are either inspired to read something or inspired not to, or are simply indifferent to it. Some were put off by his opening remarks, such that they lost the motivation to continue to read further. This has nothing to do with being an "attentional issue" and everything to do with how the opening line inspired them. Why insult those whose motivations are different than yours? In doing so, you are being just as negative as the negative posters you commented about. Very strange.

While I, too, felt put off by the opening lines of the OP, I did decide to read more, for my own reasons. He said he wrote this before and I think he actually posted it before as it seems familiar to me. In any case, I am glad Michael shared his thoughts, as I'm always interested in reading what others have to say about their journeys and philosophies on D/s and BDSM. Since I am personally in a unique place of getting to start over and figure out where I want my next steps to land, I am particularly interested these days. As with anyone who posts such personal views, there will be those who agree with them and those who do not. That's what makes the world so interesting, isn't it? I love reading both sides of the coin because it helps me process my own thoughts that I am formulating. While I am not an advocate of rude disagreement, I do like to understand where disagreements form and why, so I can form more complete opinions myself and learn something.

To say those who disagree and didn't want to read simply have attention problems contributes nothing but more spewed negativeity to this thread. I was glad you went on to post again, some more significant and substantive thoughts. Although, I actually own things that I do nothing with - including books. Why? They make me feel good. Something about a room full of books, even if I don't have time to read them, creates an environment that is comforting to me, and relaxes me. Therefore, owning them has a practical use to me. As I mentioned above, we all have different things that motivate and inspire us, for our own personal reasons.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to scottjk)

Post #: 29

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 4:47:48 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
…I am not alone in this, I know others who have bound their partner to them not by chains, not by manipulation, but by showing their partner how to be free and find joy and they are together because nothing makes them freer and more joyful than being together. I truly treasure those people and those friendships.

Welcome back! I hope your hiatus was restful.

When I train someone to be strong and/or independent, it makes me part of their personality, part of their base foundation. In a way, it molds them and holds them to me. It has always been the chains on the heart that are most binding in my world.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 30

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 5:18:34 PM

tweedydaddy

Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline

Braveheart never made me cry, Lassie did, but then so did ET, and the final scenes from Casanova with David Tennant. I think you have every right to state your views and you do so very well. Once written and posted though, other people, in a public forum have an equal right to offer comments. I wouldn't take it personal, people are responding to your ideas, that's all. if people go too far, and there are a fair few people who do, then other people on the site who read your stuff all have views of their own and some may well agree with you.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 31

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 11:13:55 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

She is bound to me not because I put a lock on her yesterday but because I inspired her today.

I enjoyed reading your post, but this part is especially close to my heart. I've served other Masters but never with the joy I have when inspired such as I am with Himself. That inspiration coupled with our constant laughter have kept us living and loving together for all these years. I love that he wants me without needing me. I love that he would be an amazing man with or without me but that he is happiest sharing life with me as I am with him. We're both flawed, but those flaws don't seem all that big n bad in the grand scheme of our life together. Honestly, I can't even claim that our rough patches have been all that rough. In fact, I'm hard pressed to remember them as they are so fleeting and rare and overwhelmed by the good stuff. I think he rocks.. that he thinks I rock is way cool and why I usually have such a stupid, happy grin on my face. Yeah, I got it bad, I know.. but .. so does he.. so there.

Okay, enough of the mush. I just wanted to thank you again for sharing this, Michael. Well written and I'm not saying that just because I happen to agree with almost all of it.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 32

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 11:37:47 PM

restlessdreamer

Posts: 60
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

... I thought I would throw them some red meat they could really sink their teeth into.

Submissives: The other white meat?

< Message edited by restlessdreamer -- 10/4/2008 11:41:29 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 33

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/4/2008 11:57:51 PM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Better and worse can only be evaluated in the context of a specific relationship.

50 points.

And upon that mutually created scaffolding does the measurement of strength of bonding lie.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 34

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/5/2008 1:11:36 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

She is bound to me not because I put a lock on her yesterday but because I inspired her today.

I enjoyed reading your post, but this part is especially close to my heart. I've served other Masters but never with the joy I have when inspired such as I am with Himself. That inspiration coupled with our constant laughter have kept us living and loving together for all these years. I love that he wants me without needing me. I love that he would be an amazing man with or without me but that he is happiest sharing life with me as I am with him. We're both flawed, but those flaws don't seem all that big n bad in the grand scheme of our life together. Honestly, I can't even claim that our rough patches have been all that rough. In fact, I'm hard pressed to remember them as they are so fleeting and rare and overwhelmed by the good stuff. I think he rocks.. that he thinks I rock is way cool and why I usually have such a stupid, happy grin on my face. Yeah, I got it bad, I know.. but .. so does he.. so there.

Okay, enough of the mush. I just wanted to thank you again for sharing this, Michael. Well written and I'm not saying that just because I happen to agree with almost all of it.

Bita, thanks for the kind words. It brings a tear of joy and a shadow of sadness to see expressed in words how you feel about your partner.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 35

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/13/2008 12:28:31 AM

BossyShoeBitch

Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I strive to make my partner strong and free with no invisible chains, no fraud and deceit. I want her bound to me not by chains but by joy. I want to give her the heavens to be free in so that when she returns I know she could kneel at any man’s feet but chooses mine out of all the men in the world.

And no matter what happens in our future, I doubt there will ever be another man who I would kneel for again.

quote:

Part of the difficulty of all this is how we use language. A perfect example is the word respect. I treat my partner with a great deal of respect and I have a great deal of respect for her as a person and as a dominant. That doesn’t keep me from treating her in other darker ways but no matter how low I take her, at some point, I reach out to her and offer her my hand to lift her back up to stand proudly next to me.

It’s difficult to put into words the way you make me feel. Never in my life have I felt more respected, admired, cherished, nurtured, lusted after and wanted.

quote:

I push her to be a better person, not because I am a beacon of perfection but because I want her to be a better person. The respect comes in because I respect her enough to listen when she pushes me to be a better person as well.

I am not sure you know just how much that has always meant to me. The fact that you listen, really actively listen to things that are important to me. Because you know they are so important to me, this makes them important to you too. That alone makes me feel like I am so incredibly important to you. That I am important and that I really, truly matter to you.

quote:

I do not fear her being strong or having an opinion, in fact I encourage her to be strong and to have opinions.

And I love when I get notes from you telling me how you love what a Glorious Bitch I can be!

quote:

She is bound to me not because I put a lock on her yesterday but because I inspired her today. She sees me allow someone else the last word, or share credit for an idea that was mine, or stop what I am doing to kneel down and give my full attention to her child. That is why she is bound to me.

Which is exactly why I do love you Michael.
Umm, could you imagine someone trying to put a lock on me? (note the Glorious Bitch comment above)

quote:

I am not alone in this, I know others who have bound their partner to them not by chains, not by manipulation, but by showing their partner how to be free and find joy and they are together because nothing makes them freer and more joyful than being together. I truly treasure those people and those friendships.

Nowhere else have I ever felt as safe as I have felt with you Michael. It truly is freeing. To know that I can tell you anything. Everything. And not ever once get an angry reaction. There were plenty of times that could have happened. Instead I got understanding and love at all times. Omg, I can remember the first time that happened. I was determined to be honest with you and not hold anything back (new territory for me indeed), I can’t describe the feeling of relief I felt when you listened and we talked through everything. Were there consequences when warranted? Sure. But never, ever out of anger or a knee jerk reaction. Sometimes, when I feel I have to hold it together for the whole world no matter what crappy thing has happened, I call Michael and as soon as I hear his voice I burst into tears, like He can help to make everything all better. G-d, the last time I felt safe enough with someone to do that was when I was a teenager with my real Dad.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

When the birdy flies off, your buggered.

I think not..

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The key point for me is Mike's intentions with regard to his woman: he aims to set her free so she can live in all happiness, or something along those lines. Admirable, but I'd like to hear the ins and outs.

Do you have anything specific you'd like to know about?

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 36

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/13/2008 6:39:08 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

That I am important and that I really, truly matter to you.

For better or worse, you matter to me like no other. And yes, at times you do seem like a force of nature and I love that about you as well!

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)

Post #: 37

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/13/2008 6:41:12 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
I'm not sure that you can't make a judgment here. Which style will produce a person who is more successful in life. Not career solely, but a more successful parent, a person who can resolve lifelong issues with family of origin, a person less bedeviled by their own demons and thus a better friend, lover, parent, adult child, sibling etc? The style that produces a person who functions better is inherently a better style.

Oh trust me Des.. I have wrangled over this extensively. Keep in mind that about 95% of what I see posted here seems insane to me... yet, there it is... and in some cases working out quite well for the couple in question. My conclusion is that I could posit a relationship based on ANYTHING and for at least 2 people out of the 6 billion on this planet, that would be exactly the thing they needed to have an affirming, mutually supportive relationship. At most, I can speak in broad generalities about things that are likely to work and not for most people. For instance, a relationship dynamic built on fear and anger is unlikely to work out for most people." But damned if someone here couldn't pop up and say "me me me."

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 38

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/14/2008 3:33:39 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

At this juncture, I'll decline the offer. One man's inspiration is another man's celebrity. As a point of order, I suspect further information will hardly provide the former, for this man.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)

Post #: 39

RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/14/2008 3:48:42 PM

lally3

Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

but by showing their partner how to be free

I'll take my hat off to you, Mike, in the event you can show your partner "how to be free". The concept of freedom and the wherewithal to attain it, has been pondered over for centuries; as yet the magic ingredient remains illusive.

Perhaps the OP is that which you rail against: a conjuring trick.

freedom is a state of mind. true there is nothing on this planet that is completely free from the struggle to survive. but it is entirely possible to find freedom within yourself and i would further suggest that everyone has the capacity to find that freedom if they only let themselves escape beyond the confines of their own rigid belief that there is no such thing.

_____________________________

even doves have pride (Prince)

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 40

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