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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/14/2008 4:11:24 PM   
NorthernGent


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It's an interesting point, Lally.......a new thread on the concept of freedom would prove interesting......

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/14/2008 4:34:54 PM   
lally3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

The key point for me is Mike's intentions with regard to his woman: he aims to set her free so she can live in all happiness, or something along those lines.  'Admirable, but I'd like to hear the ins and outs.


Now HERE is real and absolutely vital question and one quite challenging!  I will have to come back to this later this weekend but I will ponder some of that as it deserves a thoughtful response.  Not only that, it is a question I often pose to those who post overblown hyperbole.


may i have a go?  and it isnt hyperbole atall.

freedom within constraints is almost the most perfect sort of freedom there is.  if the constraints are built from respect and love.  the freedom to be yourself completely, no holes barred, warts and all and to be accepted still as the most precious thing that walks and breathes.  it gives freedom to express every inch of who you are without concern because failing will only bring thoughtful, considered direction and succeeding will be rewarded always.

from that spring board comes the added freedom of choice to be tied to the one that gives you room to be you, encourages it, supports it.  in the end its no longer constraint within a relationship but freedom, pure and simple - the thing that really ties you is the freedom you feel to be whoever you are and to be the best that you can be for the one who inspires you.

well, thats my take on it anyway.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/14/2008 8:14:12 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

At this juncture, I'll decline the offer. One man's inspiration is another man's celebrity. As a point of order, I suspect further information will hardly provide the former, for this man.
 
Then why even ask in the first place?  I suspect then, that you were looking for a reason to feed your own ego by posting such a clever little insult.. Well, good for you.  Now you can go have a cigarette.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 11:49:19 AM   
NorthernGent


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I didn't ask you.

While we're it though, if, by some freak of nature, the day comes when I seek an exercise in cyber ego spats, you'll be roughly 42,243rd on the list of potential suitors. In  keeping with the theme of instruction, seek counsel with Mike in the event you crave adoration from a total stranger; he'll tell you that I'm the last man with whom you should hedge your bets.

Regardless, this affair is of no consequence.

Good day.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 2:42:31 PM   
clearshooter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Since people were so enjoying shredding my views on submissives I thought I would throw them some red meat they could really sink their teeth into. 

(note: I wrote this some time ago, the relationship I mentioned has morphed but as I think about it, how it has morphed more proves the point than undermines it)

I just finished watching Braveheart for the 100th time and movies like that always make me weepy and sappy and evoke the need to write bad poetry. For some reason I got to thinking about the nature of dominance and ownership.
I can own a book and never have to read it, never open its covers to discover its contents, never explore the deeper meanings or allow it to expand my mind. I truly own that book but so what? That ownership is meaningless in any way that matters. A child can own a book, a pompous ass can own a book as strongly and firmly as I. There is no reason to be proud of that sort of ownership.

Owning an object is a passive act, once paid for, no further effort is required. It is merely an act of accumulation; it says nothing about me that I own this book or that. Unlike a book, owning an animal requires constant effort and how that animal behaves does reflect on their owner.

Owning a dog is more complicated than owning a book. Some dogs are allowed to run wild, undisciplined and untrained. However, a few months taken to instill discipline makes a huge difference and instills behaviors that last a lifetime. However, it doesn’t take much to earn the loyalty and affection of a dog. A few treats here and there, a pat on the head, and he is your best friend.

Falconry is often related to D/s, the beautiful noble bird flying free and yet returning to the hand of the master is an appealing analogy. I think it is a perfect analogy for many who chest thump about being master/slave. Those falcons are let free only physically, their minds are chained and tethered to their owners. Not by the character of the master, not because they earned that loyalty, but because the falcon has been raised to believe that nourishment comes only from their owner. So they return only to be fed, not knowing they could nourish and sustain themselves. The chains that bind them are invisible to them and if revealed, the falcon would never return. That is neither mastery nor slavery as I use the words, that is fraud and deceit that keep those falcons bound to their owner.

I strive to make my partner strong and free with no invisible chains, no fraud and deceit. I want her bound to me not by chains but by joy. I want to give her the heavens to be free in so that when she returns I know she could kneel at any man’s feet but chooses mine out of all the men in the world.

That to me is mastery and slavery and possession.

Part of the difficulty of all this is how we use language. A perfect example is the word respect. I treat my partner with a great deal of respect and I have a great deal of respect for her as a person and as a dominant. That doesn’t keep me from treating her in other darker ways but no matter how low I take her, at some point, I reach out to her and offer her my hand to lift her back up to stand proudly next to me.

I push her to be a better person, not because I am a beacon of perfection but because I want her to be a better person. The respect comes in because I respect her enough to listen when she pushes me to be a better person as wel.l I do not fear her being strong or having an opinion, in fact I encourage her to be strong and to have opinions.

She is bound to me not because I put a lock on her yesterday but because I inspired her today. She sees me allow someone else the last word, or share credit for an idea that was mine, or stop what I am doing to kneel down and give my full attention to her child. That is why she is bound to me.

I am not alone in this, I know others who have bound their partner to them not by chains, not by manipulation, but by showing their partner how to be free and find joy and they are together because nothing makes them freer and more joyful than being together. I truly treasure those people and those friendships.


Excellent post!  Thank you

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 2:56:57 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

if, by some freak of nature, the day comes when I seek an exercise in cyber ego spats

Good day.


And they say Americans can't grasp irony.  Thanks for being so charmingly amusing in your own "special" way.   

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 3:02:07 PM   
colouredin


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Not sure that was really irony to be honest, irony would have been more "aww thankyou I was looking for an exercise in cyber ego spats"

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 3:11:11 PM   
SimplyMichael


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No, irony is when you say one thing and either intentionally or unintentionally mean something else.  I will leave it up to our dear readers to decide which was the case here.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 3:35:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

No, irony is when you say one thing and either intentionally or unintentionally mean something else.  I will leave it up to our dear readers to decide which was the case here.


Hi Michael!

'Ya know though - its a shame that one point has been lost. This one by 'lally3':
quote:

freedom is a state of mind.  true there is nothing on this planet that is completely free from the struggle to survive.  but it is entirely possible to find freedom within yourself and i would further suggest that everyone has the capacity to find that freedom if they only let themselves escape beyond the confines of their own rigid belief that there is no such thing.


I tried a few times to amplify this thought but found it difficult to put into a few paragraphs; a novel maybe. 

beth and I speak on this issue almost daily. her happiness and the joy she experiences in life is directly attributed to being with a partner who accepts her for the exact way she sees herself. her life is without pretense. Even when a cloak of pretense has to be worn for appearances to placate social 'norms'; how she is required, or allowed from her perspective, to dress, speak, behave; is true to her self realized identity.

My part really wasn't involved so much with 'training' her but instead focuses on enabling her, convincing her, that she is 'free' to be herself - a 'slave'. Often when we are at the most intense point of our physical interaction I whisper in her ear two words - "go deeper". The process is ever ongoing. Asked to point to a person 'free' to be themselves and I'd point to beth. However there is an interesting other side of the equation.

In many respects I've been 'freed' as well. I no longer have to wonder if today is the day my partner decides to "get this BDSM, D/s nonsense" (ex-wife quote there) behind us. Whether my confidence feeds beth confidence or the other way around - the result is that we are both 'free' of that concern.

Again - difficult to put in a few paragraphs. I tried my best. But the bottom line I want to convey is that however you personally define Mastery or slavery; meeting someone with a common definitions and common goals - is VERY liberating; regardless of which side of the flogger is preferred. Or if, as in your case, a flogger isn't preferred at all!

To be 'free' within a relationship you start with the seed of personal knowledge, grow with the warmth of confidence, and flower with the pollination of a compatible partner.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 3:56:22 PM   
Evility


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I'd cry if I had to watch Braveheart, too.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/15/2008 7:42:14 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Merc,

You DID nail it and in a way I never thought of.  I don't have to be anything but myself with BSB and I hope she doesn't have to be anyone but herself with me.  We are emotionally naked and vulnerable to each other at a rather core level.   It IS liberating and highly intoxicating which is why, despite the trials and tribulations, we still have very very deep feelings for each other.

This is of course one of the major reasons why I feel so at home around you two, you clearly are at ease with each other, no posturing, no preening, just two people having the time of their lives.   Its a very beautiful thing.


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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/16/2008 1:23:43 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

if, by some freak of nature, the day comes when I seek an exercise in cyber ego spats

Good day.


And they say Americans can't grasp irony.  Thanks for being so charmingly amusing in your own "special" way.  



Let's plant a stake in the ground, here, Mike: you've acquired the wherewithal to effect freedom. 'No mean feat considering monks have devoted their entire lives to transcending the barriers of earthly anxiety and other assorted base emotions and instincts.

At this juncture in our proceedings, the gods have exercised their power to effect 'rain stopped play', and perhaps wih a modicum of mercy; but, as ever, the bragging rights garnered from this exchange, belong to you.

Of materiel consequence, you are not required to furnish me with any more of your appeals (those in private message form) to acquire my attention toward your posts on this thread. I can only surmise that the said appeals are intended to prove your worth. Mike, as a free man effecting freedom, and it follows thus a man devoid of the failings, i.e. fear, anxiety, pride, glory etc, that tend to place us firmly in the bracket of humans rather than gods, your worth remains unchallenged on my part.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/16/2008 1:52:40 PM   
ModeratorSixteen


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And with that,a reminder to get everyone back on topic and miss out the contest of words.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/16/2008 2:17:27 PM   
lally3


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Let's plant a stake in the ground, here, Mike: you've acquired the wherewithal to effect freedom. 'No mean feat considering monks have devoted their entire lives to transcending the barriers of earthly anxiety and other assorted base emotions and instincts.

there was an irish catholic monk who lived in a cave alone at Glendalock in County Wicklow, who was pursued by a beautiful woman. she'd climb up the cliff and try to seduce him.. out of shere desparation one day he picked her up and threw her off the cliff into the lock, she drowned, so the story goes, though the irish love to embelish a story and the blarney stone is their creation after all.  ive often wondered if he continued being a monk after that, did he feel perfectly within his rights to murder her for being the serpants servant.

freedom to be yourself is infact the absolute antithesis of the above story.  he was so afraid of being himself and giving into the temptress that he murdered her. 

transcendental meditation might give you insights, wisdom, clarity, spiritual affirmation but its not, i dont think, necessarily a path to freedom.  maybe monks are following their hearts and by being free of the world and its mess they are free within themselves, but i cant help doubting that - i think they struggle like the rest of us, because afterall, theyre only human.

for some reason i find it a little curious that youve got so irked about a statement that SimplyMichael made along the lines of affording his partner the freedom to be.  its a common enough assertion made one way or another by subs quite regularly.  the freedom to be ourselves, to expand within a safe space (read missturbations thread and ensuing answers) and the freedom to grow and develop without fear.  its actually quite a biggie for subs and one you should try to understand i think, instead of attacking it through Michael.



< Message edited by lally3 -- 10/16/2008 2:19:58 PM >


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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/16/2008 2:49:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

the freedom to grow and develop without fear



This is a similar statement to the one I replied to in the first instance (Mike aimed to set his woman free).

I believe it is impossible to live without fear, and I base this on the history of mankind and that which I see every day of my life.

You see, people the world over have been searching for the magic ingredient to set people free from fear; to date, it remains illusive.

I'd suggest you consider the defintion of fear, and then consider that which you see in your environment.

You can soothe someone's anxieties; you can't rid a human being of fear.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/16/2008 3:32:20 PM   
VioletAshes


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I enjoyed this post, I agree with the element of Joy and Freedom being an mportant (perhaps the most important) part of any D/s relationship & it is something my Husband has been the only person ever to show me these feelings truly.
 
One thing is clear - that you are thinking beyond the surface of your relationships & trying to express that the best you can. Admirable. It is easy to discredit something someone has said by being negative about it but it is much harder to come out into the community and express your ideas so that you can grow. Also admirable.

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/17/2008 7:20:03 AM   
lally3


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I'd suggest you consider the defintion of fear, and then consider that which you see in your environment.

in the context of my post and this thread the freedom to be yourself without fear relates to the nurturing of a personality rather than destruction of a personality through abuse.  and yes 'abuse' can occur in a bdsm relationship, but it should be concensual.

yes people fear death and all sorts of things.  but i doubt Michael meant that he could free a person from all responsiblities and anxieties regarding themselves and the ones they love - what i believe he meant was that within his relationship he strives to give his partner the freedom to be herself with him without fear (that her trust in him would not be abused).

< Message edited by lally3 -- 10/17/2008 7:22:55 AM >


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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/17/2008 8:18:14 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Lally,

Thanks for helping return this to an insightful discussion.  That is indeed "all" I meant as I do realize I did not put her into some metaphysical state of freedom, what we have created for each other is a place where we both have more freedom than either have experienced before and I think we are both proud of that achievement because it took two and we have both worked very hard to get here.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 10/17/2008 8:19:11 AM >

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RE: My thoughts on Mastery - 10/17/2008 8:39:40 AM   
lally3


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youre welcome  ive enjoyed contributing.

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