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trust - 10/3/2008 7:38:00 PM

sravaka

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The "questioning your submissiveness" thread has me thinking about trust. Specifically, the bit about the dominant not expecting submission until he'd earned the OP's trust.

I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this: What is trust to you? How does it develop? How is it earned? How do you know (or what makes you suspect) you have enough of it for x/y/z/ purpose?

By way of background, I have an ongoing dispute with someone about the nature of trust. He insists that trust is a choice-- decide to trust someone, and voila! you trust them. If you turn out to be wrong, you worry about that later. But to me, trust is something I feel or don't feel. I may choose to behave in a way that indicates trust, but that choice has nothing to do with actually feeling it. You can choose to take a calculated risk, and and see what happens, and come to trust as the result of a good outcome, but again, that's independent of having or not having little doubts somewhere in your core to start with. I guess I see moving forward with trust as a combined activity of brain and heart. But, since no amount of reasoning will bring this guy around to my way of thinking (shocking, that), I'm forced to conclude that he really does feel trust in some other, to me alien, way. (whether this is a dom vs. sub thing, I will not venture to speculate.)

Grateful for any/all thoughts.
--sravaka

_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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RE: trust - 10/3/2008 7:41:46 PM

hopelesslyInvo

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trust... who i have trust in, how much, and when i choose to place faith in that trust is all about how comfortable both the person and the situation makes me feel.

< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 10/3/2008 7:42:17 PM >

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RE: trust - 10/3/2008 8:08:35 PM

Quivver

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I realized some time ago that Trust like charity has to start at home.
Learning to trust my own judgment, my own gut, and my own actions were the the most important step in trusting another.
By knowing myself it reduced my wonder about others cause I understood it was my choice.
If I screw up and misplace my trust, I have only myself to blame.

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The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

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RE: trust - 10/3/2008 8:10:16 PM

ExKat

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For me, it's a combination of both, so neither is really too alien.

The first time you play with someone, you choose to trust them. They have in no means given you enough proof to trust them with your safety. Yes, you may feel as though you're following your heart, but most likely you're thinking with a combination of your brain and your naughty bits.

The heart comes in later in deeper forms of trust. You conciously decide when you think it's safe to play with someone, when you think it's cool for them to stretch your limits or take you to places you've never been before. You just know when you trust someone to be there if you need them in an emergency, when you trust someone enough to take care of you when you're vulnerable.

However...if you're getting upset argueing about philosophical details, maybe there are bigger issues than the basis of trust?

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RE: trust - 10/3/2008 8:31:36 PM

sravaka

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Oh, I'm not upset in the least. My take works quite well for me; I'm just curious about how it works for others, and about the philosophical details for their own sake.

I totally agree that it's different at different stages of the relationship. Trusting someone with play, trusting them with your obedience, trusting them with your heart are no doubt all different too. Perhaps the question was too broad/vague....

--sravaka

_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

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Post #: 5

RE: trust - 10/3/2008 8:35:41 PM

bluefireroses

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For me trust is some thing inherent. I often don't know exactly when I learned to trust someone, but I know that I can. Most of the time, it takes me a long time to trust someone especially if it has to pertain to this lifestyle.

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Post #: 6

RE: trust - 10/3/2008 8:55:34 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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Trust is something that starts very small and either grows or diminishes with the other person's actions.

If I accept a dinner invitation, I trust the man will show up within ten minutes of the specified time. If he shows up two hours late, he's lost a lot of my trust and respect. If he does show up on time and offers a compliment, I'll be more likely to extend a little more trust. Perhaps plan an outing where I don't know all the details, just what to wear and the hours we'll be out.

But I need to see him in action, in stressful situations to see how he really reacts. And I need to see that he keeps his cool even then to really trust him. Because too many people talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

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Post #: 7

RE: trust - 10/4/2008 2:01:45 AM

lilpetuk

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for me trust has to be earned by the others actions, and vice versa, like a Quivver states you must also have trust and faith in yourself and your decisions. Trust is a delicate thing when earned it can so easily be broken with one silly action....just my opinion, but hey i trust my opinions <winks>

hugsssssssss

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Post #: 8

RE: trust - 10/4/2008 3:23:47 AM

colouredin

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I kinda see it as the innocent till proved guilty initially on a base level i trust everyone i have no reason not to whether that trust is mantianed and prooved correct is based on actions. I was thinking when I was reading that well its terrible if thats the case within a D/s relationship because you could have that base level of trust and when its lost it could be lost in a spectacular way that could be emotionally of physically damaging so there must be more to it. I do think there is a gut instinct about people, you can pick up on how genuine people are through simple conversation and generally just being in tune with someone.

Come to think about it there are many people I know that I dont trust, there hasnt been something big that has made me not trust them simply not being able to. When I say about base level trust what I mean is you dont put yourself in danger with that person I wouldnt divulge my deep dark secrets to someone I have just met due to base trust because as has been said there are various levels of trust. Some people you trust to watch your coat while you go to the bathroom, some you trust telling your embaressing stories to, some you trust to hold a knife to your throat and not slit it. The reason for the levels is largely unquantifiable. However I do think that once someone has broken trust it is near on impossible to get it back

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Post #: 9

RE: trust - 10/4/2008 5:56:36 AM

KatyLied

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quote:

What is trust to you? How does it develop? How is it earned? How do you know (or what makes you suspect) you have enough of it for x/y/z/ purpose?

I need to see consistent behavior over a period of time. Sometimes even that has failed me. You can't always be certain, even when you see (or think you are seeing) consistent behavior, such is life when dealing with others. At some point, if you want to take something to the next level, you have to take a risk. Only you can understand the bar you've set for risk/benefit.

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 10/4/2008 5:57:02 AM >

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RE: trust - 10/4/2008 10:58:04 AM

stella41b

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Trust to me is nothing other than knowing someone and accepting them as they are, and giving them enough chances to be themselves with you. But what about in the beginning? This is where you take them at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt, based on of course how much confidence they are able to inspire in you.

Trust to me isn't instantaneous, but a process, a journey which takes you from 'this is who I think or feel X is like' to 'this is who I know X to be'. It's not just learning about someone, but also learning to overcome your preconceived notions of what someone could be like and giving them the chance to show you who they really are.

If there were three things which work against or even destroy trust between two people they would be an inability to communicate effectively, deceit and also the creation of conflicts between two people. Therefore it can be taken that developing trust requires effective communication, honesty and integrity and a certain degree of harmony.

Of these I would suggest that communication is the most important, closely followed by honesty and integrity. Effective communication is important not just to make things clear and to prevent misunderstandings, which goes some way to inspire confidence, but also to prevent someone being hurt or (especially in the beginning) feeling a little insecure, unsure, or even suspicious. People only feel insecure or unsure when they feel that they don't have enough knowledge or information. But then again it's knowing when to ask, what to ask, how to ask, or whether just to sit back and let things develop on their own.

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RE: trust - 10/4/2008 11:50:50 AM

sambamanslilgirl

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelesslyInvo

trust... who i have trust in, how much, and when i choose to place faith in that trust is all about how comfortable both the person and the situation makes me feel.

i agree

if i wasn't comfortable enough around Daddy, i wouldn't be in a relationship with Him now.

He was quite understanding of my lack of trust at first because of my rough divorce ...He gave me time and space to reach a safe level in which i was comfortable and safe - that's how He earned my trust.

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...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

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Post #: 12

RE: trust - 10/4/2008 1:03:55 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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If he thinks trust is given and not earned, ask him for his credit card info and to be put on his bank account. That's proof.

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Cynical and proud of it!

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Post #: 13

RE: trust - 10/4/2008 2:56:35 PM

Subductrssss

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Trust to me is an instinct (a faulty one with me but an instinct nonetheless (grins)

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Subductrssss

The reality of the other person lies not in what he reveals to you but in what he cannot reveal to you. Therefore, if you would understand him, listen not to what he says but rather to what he does not say.
Kahlil Gibran

(in reply to sravaka)

Post #: 14

RE: trust - 10/5/2008 12:48:39 PM

littleone35

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I have been told i am too trusting. I decide to trust people until they prove to me i cannot trust them. With Master i trusted him from the first time we spoke on the phone he gave me his nimber and did not ask for mine (i did not think about caller ID lol). I was proved right to trust him wiht my body and heart. I guess at times i am too trusting but so far my gut has not been wrong.

Mat's littleone

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Post #: 15

RE: trust - 10/5/2008 1:47:47 PM

leadership527

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Here's my personal take on trust...

"Trust" is the level of confidence you have that you can predict someone's future actions based upon their past behavior. Some people are more willing to be trusting and others are less so. In my experience, you cannot choose to trust nor can you choose (directly at least) how trusting in general you are. This is why trust must be earned. Until there are some "past behaviors" to see, there is no way to predict future action. My wife trusts me to handle the authority she's given me well because I have demonstrated that I can do so with lesser amounts before.

Of real importance here is that trust is not a single thing. You don't "trust" a person or not. My wife likens it to one of those pin sculptures you can press up against your face and then see your face in relief on the other side. There's lots and lots of areas that I may or may not trust my wife in. For instance, I trust her implicitly to not lie to me. I do not trust her one bit to leave for work on time (5 minutes late no matter how early she gets up *laughs*).

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Post #: 16

RE: trust - 10/5/2008 11:18:57 PM

faithfulfemme

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

...... There's lots and lots of areas that I may or may not trust my wife in. For instance, I trust her implicitly to not lie to me. I do not trust her one bit to leave for work on time (5 minutes late no matter how early she gets up *laughs*).

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Trust is neither wishing nor hoping; it is a deep sense of honor in another.

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Post #: 17

RE: trust - 10/6/2008 9:33:42 AM

bound4more

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As with anything, I can only speak from my own experience as I don't believe any of us is an "expert" for us all. Trust is something that has been a combination of risk and time. At first I took a chance and chose to trust my Dominant. Through experience I learned if my trust in him was valid or not. It's funny that we enter a lifestyle of risk and challenge and then question if we are trusting. I think just discussing these things with another takes a certain degree of trust.

I love the unexpected, but I'll be damned that I don't try to arrange everything. LOL

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You can tell who someone really is by how they act

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Post #: 18

RE: trust - 10/6/2008 5:45:54 PM

CookieSlave

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Joined: 7/27/2008
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For me, there are varying levels of trust. Like littleone35, I tend to trust people naturally, unless they give me a reason not to(albeit with some degree of "suspicion" LOL). But.. that's a rather unassuming matter-of-fact giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

And then there are deeper levels of trust that blow my socks off.

There's a guy.. well, I'm trying to get to his state to meet up, it's time. I hadn't read this thread,, just the title, but I kept looking at it and it had me thinking. The other day it struck me why... and how profoundly, deeply I trust this guy - it's almost overwhelming to me. That is not something I get to easily, and it's almost scary, but there ya go.

--cs

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Post #: 19

RE: trust - 10/7/2008 2:43:01 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

What is trust to you?

Risk can not be eliminated; it can merely be managed.

It follows thus trust is engenered where you've weighed up the risks posed, and concluded that the significant risks are manageable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

How does it develop?

Understand that person (listen to what she says; I mean really listen) and look beyond the words to deduce exactly that which is being negotiated. To illustrate: you may say you wish to serve at all times - well, we're all human beings with our faults and flaws, and self-interest is one of them - so, in the event a person doesn't understand their prime motives, then can you trust her word? I'm cautious, so I expect the 'getting to know someone' stage to last for a fair amount of time before I commit to that person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

How is it earned?

Actions aligned with words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

How do you know (or what makes you suspect) you have enough of it for x/y/z/ purpose?

At the point where she readily accepts that she belongs on my ship......with one captain.......heading for a place at my discretion.......

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 20

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