RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (Full Version)

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seeksfemslave -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 4:17:13 AM)

First I am not a little Englander. I am not even patriotic. I am close to despising the English ruling clases whether they be products of red brick universities or public school/Oxbridge.

quote:

meatcleaver
The UK has never had an education system, its always had an ad hoc response to education which means that it keeps failing to deliver the goods,
What about the comprehensive system, introduced by left of centre politicians. A brilliant idea ruined by even further left wing idealogues

quote:


Equality has never been the aim of socialism, equal opportunity has been the aim of socialism

Cant agree with this. For example mixed ability classes were introduced in schools precisely in the belief that it would equalise success or there would be no failure now.
The equality that resulted was that of the lowest common denominator.
Such questions as why is the police force is not more representative, why so few wimmen at the top of business tend to be asked by those who are socialistically inclined revealed when they are quite happy to try to introduce quotas to impose their vision.

.
quote:


European social democracies have a history of producing world class industries.

Holland. ? Belgium. ? Lichtenstein ? Italy ?
Germany Yes. I am a great admirer of Germany.



MzMia -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 5:03:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: winterlight

I know somebody in one state that is stocking up on food and other things. He and others in his state feel that the depression is coming and we will be going through what our parents did.


We had a long discusssion on this very topic a few months ago.
Stocking up on non-perishables seems like a prudent thing to do.
At the very least, at least you have plenty of food on hand, for the times
when you can't afford to buy groceries.
I think we will start having threads on how to stretch dollars.
 
Buddy? can you spare a can of beans?



MzMia -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 5:07:40 AM)

Seeks? I think you are telling us in so many words that
you swing to the far left.
[;)]
I am curious, what effects of the slowing economy are
you noticing across the pond?
How is the economy affecting those of you
in the UK and other European countries?
This is certainly a global crisis, I would love to hear how people are
faring throughout the world.



TNstepsout -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 5:48:04 AM)

quote:



again, I think you are ignorant about the situation. however, if you are curious, I'd suggest you read Rothbard's writings on the great depression and, as I suggested earlier, read up on the panic of 1819.



It's not 1819.



meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 6:17:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

First I am not a little Englander. I am not even patriotic. I am close to despising the English ruling clases whether they be products of red brick universities or public school/Oxbridge.

quote:

meatcleaver
The UK has never had an education system, its always had an ad hoc response to education which means that it keeps failing to deliver the goods,


What about the comprehensive system, introduced by left of centre politicians. A brilliant idea ruined by even further left wing idealogues


The comprehensive system has never been fully implimented in the sense that Britain has always had direct grant Grammar schools, religious schools and private schools classed as charities, all of which ended up being elitist enclaves that attracted more government money per pupil than poorly funded comprehensive schools.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

meatcleaver
Equality has never been the aim of socialism, equal opportunity has been the aim of socialism


Cant agree with this. For example mixed ability classes were introduced in schools precisely in the belief that it would equalise success or there would be no failure now.


I went to a comprehensive school, one of the first and most successful ones in the country because the council never allowed conservative inspired creaming off of talent and money to weaken the school. The school was streamed and always has been so pupils are always challenged by their peers. The difference from the old grammar/secondary modern system is that children aren't labeled as failures at 11, they can move up and down the streaming throughout their school career so are able to compete and encouraged to compete and not dumped on the waste pile at an early age.


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The equality that resulted was that of the lowest common denominator.
Such questions as why is the police force is not more representative, why so few wimmen at the top of business tend to be asked by those who are socialistically inclined revealed when they are quite happy to try to introduce quotas to impose their vision.



Governments have consistently underfunded inner city schools and allowed sink schools to form, particularly in the Thatcher era. Inner city comprehensives were set up to fail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
European social democracies have a history of producing world class industries.

Holland. ? Belgium. ? Lichtenstein ? Italy ?
Germany Yes. I am a great admirer of Germany.



I suspect you are assuming household names to be the same as world class companies which is not necessarily so but there is Philips, DAF, Unilever, Shell, Heineken from Holland. Belgium has the biggest brewing company in the world. Both countries are huge in shipping and associated industries, particularly Holland where Britain hires most of its shipping and sea services from. Britain buys its trains from Italy. If you lived in Lichtenstein you'd be richer than you are now because of their banking but hey, they are only a nation of about five people. Don't forget there is Nokia, Ericson, Volvo, Scania, SAAB and many more from other social democratic countries. You know as well as I do the list is too many to name but you are more likely to find products from social democratic countries than from Britain.



seeksfemslave -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:08:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
Seeks? I think you are telling us in so many words that
you swing to the far left.
[;)]
 Only when I wear tight trousers.
I am economicaly centre left, socially hard right.
Thus
I believe the body politic both national and local has a role to play in providing help in things like healthcare educashun housing .ie a collective contribution to individual circumstance.
but
for those involving themselves  in  serious antisocial behaviour I would not seek to understand I would punish. ie subject them to a hard line rule of law.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:16:31 AM)


Seeks....I have to tell you, you have the best profile pic of any I've ever seen!





variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:33:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You are showing your complete and utter ignorance of both socialism and fascism. Socialism is internationalist, Hitler was a nationalist. Fascism is nationalist which is why Hitler could talk about pure blood. The nationalist part of Hitler's movement has more in common with American patriotism than with anyone who believes in  internationalism. The Americans say 'In god we trust.', the NAZIs said, ''God is with us', both seem to have the belief god is on their side, socialist tend not to believe in god. You have to look deeper than names and titles in politics, you have to look at the substance and motivations of movements, parties and nations.


socialism *was* internationalist (workers of the world unite and all that crap). however, this line of thinking was dealt it's death blow by mussolini around WW1. mussolini was a prominent member in european socialists circles. he was even called the il duce of socialism before we was the il duce of fascism (after going to prison for his socialist...activities). when WWI sprang up, mussolini threw his support behind it which caused an utter schism between him and his followers and the rest of the socialist movement who viewed such an international war as a detrement to all of the workers as all workers in every country were affected negatively. however, mussolini was under the impression (and correctly so) that working class italians wouldn't care as much about working class british, russians, americans, canadians, etc. than they would their own, wealthier countrymen, with whom they shared a common language, religion, history, culture, and so on. he was right. international socialism started slowly dying as fascism (and a nationalized brand of socialism) gained in popularity.

as far as hitler not being a socialist as he was a nationalist...well...that's why he's called a national socialist. he is not a fascist as fascists didn't take the mean of production away from private hands to the same extent the national socialists did. hitler himself raged on about the threats capitalists were to all germans, expecially working class germans, though he was equally wary of marxists and international socialists (even though what he did with the nation was completely socialists, just on a national level).

as far as patriotism being a litmus test for fascism, socialism, or democracy...um...not really. as I said, the international brand of socialism died in popularity around WWI, though the doctrines of central control and redistributions of wealth lived on (they just followed mussonlini's national approach).

nor is having the idea that god is on your side central to one ideaology as well. when talking about nazism, you have to remember that hitler and the other high ups realized that religion was a superb tool - and they used it wonderfully. the combined traditional christianity (though they got rid of a lot of it) with earlier pagan rituals to create a religion of the greman state and german people. this is an entirely separate subject altogether, but I'm sure you can look up some of the fascinating things they did.

the motivations of any government are the same - control the citizens and ensure you keep your income (taxes) coming. if you want to look further than that, look at how they addressed private property and economics. don't look at such silly things such as how they used the bullhorn or what catch phrases they used to gain public support.



variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:36:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I have also never heard a rational statement about socialism when I've been in the states, not that it a word one would hear often.


Might I suggest Ludwig von Mises' excellent critique on socialism: a wonderful book called "Socialism".

I'd like to see you argue against his points.



extrmsadistseeks -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:44:40 AM)

 Before  the end of modern society: chop fire wood, gather water, food,  and keep shelter. After the meldown of modern society: chop fire wood, gather food water and  keep shelter.



rexrgisformidoni -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:48:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: extrmsadistseeks

Before  the end of modern society: chop fire wood, gather water, food,  and keep shelter. After the meldown of modern society: chop fire wood, gather food water and  keep shelter.


Pillage



meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:54:52 AM)

variations. von Mises and others might have written what the right considers a masterwork destroying socialist economics but at this particular moment in time it is a moot point since socialist economics are being used to save the world's capitalist financial system from  self destruct.

I think thatis von Mises out of the way when it comes to economics.

Apart from that, he was discussing communist economics which is completely state run, not socialist economics which doesn't have an economic theory has such but general social principles about equality of opportunity and state ownership of vital utilities such as energy and water etc. Germany has probably the most socialist policies of all the large trading nations and they manage to export more manufactured goods than the US

On cultural and social fields he is out of the ball park all together since he destroys socialist religious thinking but there is no socilaist religious thinking. Like all rightwing economic theorists, he sat in his hallowed academic halls pontificating like the pope about the magic of the markets, yet here is capitalism again, economists not knowing what to do, they know what not to do as usual but not what to do. As they say, put two economists in a room and they will come up with three opinions.

Even Stiglitz wrote a book about the death of socialist economics and only the other day he was on TV with a rye smile on his face saying he might have been a little premature, in reference to governments having to nationalize the banks.



meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 9:10:28 AM)

The other flaw in rightwing economics is that it considers the environment to be a free resource with no consequences to it being over harvested. In the time of von Mises, the production of disposable junk for the masses wasn't a problem because it wasn't considered to have consequences, now we realize it has. Another fact that renders von Mises, obsolete.



variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 10:45:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Totally free markets tend to oligarchy, monopoly and relative poverty for the masses.


when has there been a monopoly under the free market? when you think of the robber barons of the 19th century...us steel, us sugar, etc. all these people gained monpolies through government intervention in the market (through tariffing imports, for instance). or the government, in the case of central pacific, simply made it illegal tocompete in certain markets. the only monopolies I'm aware of have been made and sustained through the use of regulation, not through the free market. and only when monopolies are upheld by the state, are the conditions so many think of when they think of the industrial revolution found - as competition between companies naturally raises the standard for workers.

even Rockefeller, who did most of his power grabbing without government help, could not hold a monopoly. when he was brought before the courts to break up his 'monopoly' he only controlled 60% of the market. that's hardly a monopoly. and Rockefeller was brilliant. he, and he alone, brought down the price of some products by over 80% , provided many, many jobs, revolutionized industry, and raised the standard of living for everyone.

quote:

universal provision of health care, education, housing. Things like that.


I've never understood why I should be required to pay for someone else's health care, education, or housing...or why anyone else should be required to pay for mine.

quote:

Look at the disaster that is education for the masses existing in the UK.


or in the US. but what do you expect from a government program?

quote:

Attempts to impose economic/social equality should never be considered.


in the end, however, people will prefer coerced equality over liberty. Thomas Szasz (the only psychiatrist whose works are worth reading) has an excellent quote on the subject:

"Men love liberty because it protects them from control and humiliation by others, thus affording them the possibility of dignity; they loathe liberty because it throws them back on their own abilities and resources, thus confronting them with the possibility of insignificance."



variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 10:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Yep, socialized medicine is crap, that is why citizens in every developed nation that has socialized medicine live longer than Americans. Poor Brits on average live longer than rich Americans. Yeah, socialized medicine is crap, it helps you live longer.


...perhaps there are other variables at work than whether or not a nation has socialized medicine?



variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 10:53:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

It's not 1819.



that's a very astute observation on your part.

it's also not 1929.

however, once you gain a certain understanding of economics, you will see that the laws do not change. what caused the panic of 1819 and the panic of 1929 are the same things that are causing the current panic.

the solutions are also the same.

if you would like me to provide you with a reading list to help you further understand economics, I would be more than happy to.

if you are curious, I would suggest you start here: http://mises.org/books/Theory_Money_Credit/Contents.aspx



philosophy -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 10:53:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Yep, socialized medicine is crap, that is why citizens in every developed nation that has socialized medicine live longer than Americans. Poor Brits on average live longer than rich Americans. Yeah, socialized medicine is crap, it helps you live longer.


...perhaps there are other variables at work than whether or not a nation has socialized medicine?



...or perhaps your dogmatic distrust of government run programs is in error.



variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 10:57:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

Pillage



I have insurance against aggression in times of turmoil.

a ruger sp101 and a mossberg 500.



variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:11:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

variations. von Mises and others might have written what the right considers a masterwork destroying socialist economics but at this particular moment in time it is a moot point since socialist economics are being used to save the world's capitalist financial system from  self destruct.


is Ludwig von Mises and the Austrian School of Economics being accused of being right-wing? that's absolutely hillarious. I would suggest you actually read their works before you say something...foolish.

socialist economics were used to save the world's 'capitalists financial system' in the early part of the last century. what did it result in? a prolonging of the depression and hyperinflation.

the same thing will happen now.

also, do we have a 'capitalist financial system'? I'm a capitalist and this is news to me.

quote:

I think thatis von Mises out of the way when it comes to economics.


well unfortunately for you (and the rest of the world) truth is not determined by a popularity contest. yes. socialist practices have been utilized in all nations for a long time...and all nations have suffered from the same predictable problems that Mises, writing in 1922, predicted would happen. I don't think that exactly puts Mises out of the way.

quote:

Apart from that, he was discussing communist economics which is completely state run, not socialist economics


it is becoming quite obvious that you have no idea what Mises was discussing as I'm doubting you have read the book...

quote:

equality of opportunity


you don't even know what this catchphrase means, do you?

and state ownership of vital utilities such as energy and water etc.

a) the state doesn't own something as the state isn't an actual entity with anthropomorphic abilities. a few individuals who have granted themselves the authority to have a monopoly on coercion own vital utilities such as energy and water etc.
b) what constitutes a 'vital' utility and why should it not be provided for privately?

quote:

Germany has probably the most socialist policies of all the large trading nations and they manage to export more manufactured goods than the US


and this means?

why are manufactured goods...or even exports...seen as an objective test of economic potency?

quote:

On cultural and social fields he is out of the ball park all together since he destroys socialist religious thinking but there is no socilaist religious thinking.


perhaps you shoudl reread some of your litany on the subject of equality of opportunity...

quote:

Like all rightwing economic theorists, he sat in his hallowed academic halls pontificating like the pope about the magic of the markets, yet here is capitalism again, economists not knowing what to do, they know what not to do as usual but not what to do. As they say, put two economists in a room and they will come up with three opinions.


he actually came upon his theories after a) reading Menger and b) doing field studies on the housing problems the poor in Austria were facing and how government interference with the market made it worse. your ignorance is become less cute and more obnoxious.

quote:

Even Stiglitz wrote a book about the death of socialist economics and only the other day he was on TV with a rye smile on his face saying he might have been a little premature, in reference to governments having to nationalize the banks.


oh, I have no beliefs that socialist economics will die. I think that people will always want things they don't deserve and will demand their whims be made laws coerced upon everyone else. most people are petty, envious, and have little to no care for the rights of others. that is to say, most people like socialist economics.



MissSCD -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:18:04 AM)

MzMia:
 
Funny you should define depression.  I looked it up as well. I wanted to know the difference, and there is none.  It is a time situation.
Be careful not to get yourself in debt over your head.   Don't move or change jobs right now.  
Keep spending to a bare minimal.
All it will take is one more major disaster such as Katrina to sink us.

Regards, MissSCD



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