RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride

RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (Full Version)

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variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:24:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The other flaw in rightwing economics what do you think rightwing economics means? do you think that during the french revolution Mises and I would've sat on the right side of their meetings? quote: is that it considers the environment to be a free resource with no consequences to it being over harvested. for one, you are an idiot for using the phrase 'over harvesting'. it is a loaded statement. you are saying that there is an objective limit to how much a resource should be harvested. there isn't an objective limit, it's you saying 'well I feel that you should only harvest this much of your property.' in the end, it comes down to this, who owns the land? is it you or is it not you. if it's not you, you have no right to tell them what to do. there are people, like myself, who want to make a lot of money. these people are intelligent and know concepts of conservation and scarcity and supply and demand. what principles do you think mines work on? if they wanted to, they could mine everything in a location and be done with it. but that's not a good way to make money. if I wanted to, I could chop down all the trees on my land and sell it for a profit, but without knowledge of conservation, I would be losing a lot of money in the long run. anyone who has ever fished or hunted understands these principles. the people who overharvest, starve. the people who are intelligent and understand the market, know how to provide their products to as many people as possible all the while sustaining their ability to produce. so yes, we understand the consequences of making unwise decisions concerning your property better than most do. quote: In the time of von Mises, the production of disposable junk for the masses wasn't a problem because it wasn't considered to have consequences, now we realize it has. Another fact that renders von Mises, obsolete. I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:26:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...or perhaps your dogmatic distrust of government run programs is in error. how is my distrust in government run programs dogmatic? and to be more specific, I have a distrust in government.

rulemylife -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:42:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 however, once you gain a certain understanding of economics, you will see that the laws do not change. what caused the panic of 1819 and the panic of 1929 are the same things that are causing the current panic. the solutions are also the same. How wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew someone would have the solution. You would be doing us all a big favor, and your country a great service, if you would just take a few hours, hop a plane to D.C. and set Bernanke and Paulson and the rest of those folks in Washington straight. To think, with all the world's economists and financial experts at a loss and we find the solution on our humble CM boards. I'm so proud.

meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:46:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 for one, you are an idiot for using the phrase 'over harvesting'. it is a loaded statement. you are saying that there is an objective limit to how much a resource should be harvested. there isn't an objective limit, it's you saying 'well I feel that you should only harvest this much of your property.' in the end, it comes down to this, who owns the land? is it you or is it not you. if it's not you, you have no right to tell them what to do. there are people, like myself, who want to make a lot of money. these people are intelligent and know concepts of conservation and scarcity and supply and demand. what principles do you think mines work on? if they wanted to, they could mine everything in a location and be done with it. but that's not a good way to make money. if I wanted to, I could chop down all the trees on my land and sell it for a profit, but without knowledge of conservation, I would be losing a lot of money in the long run. anyone who has ever fished or hunted understands these principles. the people who overharvest, starve. the people who are intelligent and understand the market, know how to provide their products to as many people as possible all the while sustaining their ability to produce. so yes, we understand the consequences of making unwise decisions concerning your property better than most do. I'm not the idiot variation, you just have to read your reply to see who is and who is a conceited one too. It is less of a moral right for you to make money as to destroy lives of other people through the ruination of their environment which most scientists agree is now happening. Ultimately, as always in human affairs, the argument will accumulate in a crisis and it will end up being irrelevant who owns the land. Since you live in America, your land was stolen in the first place so there is no moral right to your land possession or anyone elses, right to hold onto land is in the power of the authority you live under and which allows you to call any land yours. You'll only do on your land what your government allows you to do on your land. The evidence points to north America suffering the most, mainly from drought from the destruction of south American rainforest. If that is the case, I wonder what a rightwing free marketeer like you will think of the free market when your land is rendered useless and your livelihood destroyed. Send out the troops as though it is only oil you need?

meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: In the time of von Mises, the production of disposable junk for the masses wasn't a problem because it wasn't considered to have consequences, now we realize it has. Another fact that renders von Mises, obsolete. I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean. You're the rightwing free marketeer, if anyone should know what peddling junk means, it should be you.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 11:54:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife How wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew someone would have the solution. You would be doing us all a big favor, and your country a great service, if you would just take a few hours, hop a plane to D.C. and set Bernanke and Paulson and the rest of those folks in Washington straight. To think, with all the world's economists and financial experts at a loss and we find the solution on our humble CM boards. I'm so proud. don't be proud, it's not your accomplishment. nor is it mine. as I said president Monroe faced a similar problem and got through it excellently. Mises saved Austria from the fate of hyperinflation when he argued with their new leader, Otto Bauer (a marxist) and encouraged them to take a market approach to the problem (though they later screwed things up and were hit witht he exact problems Mises told them they would be hit by). Hayek has written on the subject many, many times. hell, we even have congressmen who have predicted this problem and the effects these programs would have. the answer is out there and it's been out there for a long time. but I suppose only time will tell. I'm just going to bookmark this page and bump it in a year with "I told you so."

meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:02:39 PM)
Have you ever read any other economists because von Mise is flawed because what he implied, like many other economists, capitalism wouldn't eat itself, never mind need rescuing through anything as socialist as nationalisation.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:06:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I'm not the idiot variation, you just have to read your reply to see who is and who is a conceited one too. I'm sorry, is having a high opinion of oneself a bad thing? quote: It is less of a moral right for you to make money as to destroy lives of other people through the ruination of their environment which most scientists agree is now happening. again, most scientists saying something does not equate to a fact. if you want to discuss global warming with me, make another thread. however, I do agree that I have no right to aggress against another individuals life or property. if my actions do that, then the victim is within their rights to demand for me to stop or demand restitution. and how does me making money equate to me destorying the environment? quote: Ultimately, as always in human affairs, the argument will accumulate in a crisis and it will end up being irrelevant who owns the land. actually, that's quite relevent. quote: Since you live in America, your land was stolen in the first place so there is no moral right to your land possession or anyone elses, right to hold onto land is in the power of the authority you live under and which allows you to call any land yours. You'll only do on your land what your government allows you to do on your land. first off, I don't allow any authority to grant me the 'right' to own land. they force their authority upon me. let's look at it this way. my family purchased land from an individual. it was twenty acres of alabama forest. we paid for someone to clear it (and helped ourselves) and built a home on it. we cultivated the land and made pastures and raised quarter horses. we maintained the land. we lived on it. who else, other than us, has any claim to this land? and yes, I agree what was done to the native americans by 'our' government was a shame. if one of them can prove that they have rights to my land, I'll give it to them. but, as I said, even when we purchased it in 89, it was untouched...we more or less homesteaded it. quote: The evidence points to north America suffering the most, mainly from drought from the destruction of south American rainforest. I'm sorry, but I'm going to need more than your word 'or something you heard from someone else' for me to give this any credence. quote: If that is the case, I wonder what a rightwing free marketeer like you will think of the free market when your land is rendered useless and your livelihood destroyed. Send out the troops as though it is only oil you need? um...if my land is rendered useless and my livelihood destroyed by someon else, then I have a case against them and can sue them for restitution or demand they stop. but I'm going to have a hard time proving (as I doubt there is any proof at all) that the 'destruction' of the rain forest is responsible for our pastures dying (they're emerald green right now). and what troops would I send? as I'm a supporter of the free market, an anarcho-capitalist, what troops could I have? you can't have troops without taxes, and you can't have a free market with taxes...so... I'm sure you can figure it out, though maybe you can't.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:08:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You're the rightwing free marketeer, if anyone should know what peddling junk means, it should be you. so anarchists are right wing in your opinion? that's interesting. and no, I do not know what peddling junk means, so please enlighten me.

meatcleaver -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:09:48 PM)
variation wrote - what troops would I send? as I'm a supporter of the free market, an anarcho-capitalist, what troops could I have? you can't have troops without taxes, and you can't have a free market with taxes...so... Then you're in shit street like the rest of us and your rather high opinion of yourself is rather pointless.

slaveboy291 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:10:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You're the rightwing free marketeer, if anyone should know what peddling junk means, it should be you. so anarchists are right wing in your opinion? that's interesting. and no, I do not know what peddling junk means, so please enlighten me. If lef-wing means lotsa goverment control and the right means small goverment and anarchy is absense of goverment. Then yes, anarchy is right-wing. Using the argument that "right wingers" like to use to argue that extreme right-wingers like the Nazi's and the fascists are left wing.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:14:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Have you ever read any other economists because von Mise is flawed because what he implied, like many other economists, capitalism wouldn't eat itself, never mind need rescuing through anything as socialist as nationalisation. ok... so I'm going to try and decipher this linguistic trainwreck and guess that you meant to say that Mises is wrong because he didnt' imply that capitalism would eat itself? so you think Mises is wrong because he didn't start with the conclusion you feel is correct...not because his logic is flawed. you, sir, have the makings of a great member of academia. and I'm curious, what does 'capitalism eating itself' mean. as far as capitalism needing rescuing...well...you are assuming that the system we are working on is capitalist. is it? we have a central bank. we are forced to use one type of monetary system which is fiat and controlled by a cartel of banks. we have no allodial titles. the government regulates any and all contracts we engage in, the government redistributes our wealth through coercive taxation... this doesn't sound very capitalist to me. perhaps socialism isn't saving us from capitalism, perhaps it's attempting to save us from itself

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:15:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Then you're in shit street like the rest of us and your rather high opinion of yourself is rather pointless. how am I on shit street with the rest of you? I know how to settle problems. do you not know how to?

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:19:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboy291 If lef-wing means lotsa goverment control and the right means small goverment and anarchy is absense of goverment. Then yes, anarchy is right-wing. Using the argument that "right wingers" like to use to argue that extreme right-wingers like the Nazi's and the fascists are left wing. what? if left wing is 'lotsa' goverment control and the right wing is less goverment control...and anarachy is the absolute abscence of government...they why would an anarchist be left wing or right wing? do you even know the origins of the left-wing/right-wing terminology? here's a hint, it started with the french revolution. tell me where the anarchists would've sat. as far as nazis and fascists being ultra-right wing...I don't know what to say. here's the fascist manifesto: http://hometown.aol.com/faschistfreiheit/fascistmanifesto.html does that sound ultra rightwing to you? the nazis instituted similar policies...and made it to where the state had control of the means of production of any industry they wanted...how is that not leftist? both nazism and fascism were progressive movements...um...I think you may need to read about the topic before you espouse uninformed opinions.

slaveboy291 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:43:00 PM)
quote: if left wing is 'lotsa' goverment control and the right wing is less goverment control...and anarachy is the absolute abscence of government...they why would an anarchist be left wing or right wing? I'm just using the same logic that people use to argue that the Nazi's were left-wing. People say you know Hitler did this, believed that so he's gotta be socialist. Well I always hear about how the right is in favor for small goverment and since anarchy is absence of goverment then following the logic of the Hitler was a Socialist crowd, anarchy has to be right-wing. quote: do you even know the origins of the left-wing/right-wing terminology? here's a hint, it started with the french revolution. tell me where the anarchists would've sat. Actually yes I did know that. quote: as far as nazis and fascists being ultra-right wing...I don't know what to say. here's the fascist manifesto: Does oppression and genocide sound like progressive ideas to you? quote: does that sound ultra rightwing to you? You know even that's not your intention, your painting the right much worse than your trying to paint the left. I'd explain why but since I had to explain what I meant about anarchy even though I said that I was using the reasoning that people like you have to reason that the Nazi's were left-wingers you wouldn't get.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 12:58:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboy291 I'm just using the same logic that people use to argue that the Nazi's were left-wing. that's not my logic. mine is that they were a progressive movement and looking at how they handled private property and legislated social issues speaks volumes about where his ideaology lies. quote: People say you know Hitler did this, believed that so he's gotta be socialist. yes, I think that hitler's actions should be used to determine whether or not he was a socialist. quote: Well I always hear about how the right is in favor for small goverment and since anarchy is absence of goverment then following the logic of the Hitler was a Socialist crowd, anarchy has to be right-wing. no, following logic, one would say that an individual who did not want any government would not fit within the right/left spectrum. this goes without mentioning that the left/right spectrum is horridly out of date and does not contain, nor can it contain, much information as to what a government is. Actually yes I did know that. quote: Does oppression and genocide sound like progressive ideas to you? oppression certainly does. genocide can as well. you are working under the assumption that the leftwing cannot possible oppress people nor could they ever be mass murderers. do I really need to point to soviet russia, north korea, or china for contemporary 'leftist' states utilizing both oppression and genocide. there is nothing more inherent to progressive ideas than their necessity to subjugate one group of people to another for the cause of the 'common good'. quote: You know even that's not your intention, your painting the right much worse than your trying to paint the left. what do you think my intentions are? quote: I'd explain why but since I had to explain what I meant about anarchy even though I said that I was using the reasoning that people like you have to reason that the Nazi's were left-wingers you wouldn't get. again, that's not my logic. my logic revolves around an understanding of waht socialism is and looking for who has the means of production. in the case of nazism, it was the state. perhaps you should read more slowly as to not misunderstand my points.

philosophy -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 1:28:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...or perhaps your dogmatic distrust of government run programs is in error. how is my distrust in government run programs dogmatic? and to be more specific, I have a distrust in government. .....well, you were given an example of a government run program that is cheaper than the free market alternative and works better: nationalised health services in Europe. What was your response? There must be some other factor involved, after all government run programs are baaaad, so they can't be good. Now that's ducking the issue. i respect your distrust of government, but when that distrust means you can't accept that a government run program occasionally works......well, that's dogmatic. It's exactly as dogmatic as someone who says that everything ought to be nationalised. Hope that makes it clear.

TNstepsout -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 5:09:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout It's not 1819. that's a very astute observation on your part. it's also not 1929. however, once you gain a certain understanding of economics, you will see that the laws do not change. what caused the panic of 1819 and the panic of 1929 are the same things that are causing the current panic. the solutions are also the same. if you would like me to provide you with a reading list to help you further understand economics, I would be more than happy to. if you are curious, I would suggest you start here: http://mises.org/books/Theory_Money_Credit/Contents.aspx I won't be needing them. I understand enough. In case you don't know, economists disagree on a lot of things including the causes of recessions/depressions etc.... and some of them with a great deal more education and experience, would no doubt disagree with you. Besides I don't know where you are getting the idea that there was no government intervention. They tried a lot of different things to aide the economy at that time. Maybe you are thinking of a different Panic. shrug

MzMia -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 6:02:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissSCD *MzMia:* *Funny you should define depression. I looked it up as well. I wanted to know the difference, and there is none. It is a time situation.* *Be careful not to get yourself in debt over your head. Don't move or change jobs right now.* *Keep spending to a bare minimal.* *All it will take is one more major disaster such as Katrina to sink us.* *Regards, MissSCD* Well most people would agree we have been in at LEAST a recession for about 1 year. I am thinking it will take about 1-2 more years of the "recession" before most start calling it a Depression. Most indicators are suggesting we are still rolling downhill and we have not even come close to the bottom yet. This much I really believe, when the government finally tells us we are in a Depression, we will have been in a Depression for probably at least a year.

variation30 -> RE: The End of Prosperity/Fasten your seats, its going to be a bumpy ride (10/8/2008 8:16:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy .....well, you were given an example of a government run program that is cheaper than the free market alternative and works better: nationalised health services in Europe. What was your response? There must be some other factor involved, first off, what is our objective gauge for how 'good' a medical service is? secondly, you are misreading my response. my response is that saying odds are, there are more factors than you are admitting (population, the samples used, etc.). quote: after all government run programs are baaaad, so they can't be good. I think that all government run progarams are unethical as they exist on stolen (taxed) money. in addition to that, centrally planning things such as prices, hours, wages, quality assumes things that cannot be known (like opportunity costs) and are always inefficent quote: but when that distrust means you can't accept that a government run program occasionally works um. the dmv works. does that mean it works well? yes, they work in the sense that they function, but I have ethical problems with how they are funded and the way in which they claim authority.

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