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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 2:46:56 PM

NihilusZero

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To the point of the OP:

The source isn't necessarily indicative of how comfortable the person is with their decision. I think the debate is important because it is (and should be) a catalyst for personal introspection, so that someone understands themselves and where their predisposition(s) come from. Otherwise, there will inevitably be some inner civil war going on inside them between "what I feel inclined to be" and "what I think I should be".

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 2:48:55 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The debate matters, the reasons one is an orientation doesn't.

the.dark.

but why does it matter? maybe the reasons are frivalous... or maybe thoughtfully considered... maybe a little of both. Why do you think it matters?

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 2:52:02 PM

beargonewild

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It is what it is. I don't find it will make on difference whether dominance or submission is nature or nurtured. The choices I make are based upon my submissiveness at this point now.
Granted it would be a great debate over a coffee just for the sake of indulging in esoterical discussions, yet I don't feel that the debate really matters when I apply it to my thoughts and identity here and now.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 2:56:34 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

...I think the debate is important because it is (and should be) a catalyst for personal introspection, so that someone understands themselves and where their predisposition(s) come from. Otherwise, there will inevitably be some inner civil war going on inside them between "what I feel inclined to be" and "what I think I should be".

If one is naturally orientated a given way... and we can prove this... I can see that it would solve this civil war that you describe... but will it not open up another door...of accountability and responsibility

"I am this way... so I am not responsible for the choices! vrs "I am this way.... but I am still responsible for the choices I make"

Just because I am naturally a given way... is this a get out of jail free card?

Then of course... if it is Nutured... well.... I am what my parents made me and it's too late to change now... against those that feel you are never too old to learn a trick or two.

It seems to me that on the responsibility and accountable front... it will not matter where the debate goes. It will just be another debate.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 2:59:56 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What about the debate within our own circle so to speak? Is there reasons within the circle that are just as valid for us that have nothing to do outside our little subculture of society?

On a personal level, if WIITWD is "nature", then perhaps the great many folks who are trying to learn to be something they are not (or trying to teach someone else to be something they are not) can accept themselves for what they are. I find this particularly true when viewed in the context of a submissive/slave as a "piece of clay" (excuse me while I vomit) that every idiot that's been a "Master" for 24 hours is wishing to find.

John

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:08:00 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

On a personal level, if WIITWD is "nature", then perhaps the great many folks who are trying to learn to be something they are not (or trying to teach someone else to be something they are not) can accept themselves for what they are.

This is true... but accepting oneself for who they are doesn't reflect any sense on what choices they will make from then on does it? Also... do you think if we are doing what comes natural.. we are going to be happy little individual? Is our happiness as individuals more than just being who we are? What about the consequences of our choices... well this not affect our happiness as well? Or maybe if we can establish I am naturally X... I don't have to worry about choices... I just follow the script for the naturally X people and I will be happy.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:09:32 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

If one is naturally orientated a given way... and we can prove this... I can see that it would solve this civil war that you describe... but will it not open up another door...of accountability and responsibility

"I am this way... so I am not responsible for the choices! vrs "I am this way.... but I am still responsible for the choices I make"

I don't think so because everyone, at the end, makes the active choice to either be how they are or to fight to change it.

Even if people are born a certain way, it does not mean they are witless victims. Oscar Pistorius was born without fully functional legs and yet chose to pursue a running lifestyle and runs at close-to-olympic-time speeds.

Shrugging of responsibility because of adversity is self-victimization.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Then of course... if it is Nutured... well.... I am what my parents made me and it's too late to change now... against those that feel you are never too old to learn a trick or two.

It seems to me that on the responsibility and accountable front... it will not matter where the debate goes. It will just be another debate.

Well, of course it's another debate. One that is not directly related to nurture vs. nature.

It's never too "late to change now" unless one want to gives up because it makes for a nice personal responsibility alibi for themselves (or unless they are happy and comfortable choosing to be how they are).

Obviously, certain circumstances may merit more patience, more tolerance, more leniency than others...but none should translate into a "get out of jail free" card.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/9/2008 3:10:49 PM >

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:10:30 PM

Rover

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Please don't misunderstand me... I don't have the elixir for happiness. Everyone should find their happiness wherever it is. I don't have theirs... only my own. And I share it judiciously. :)

John

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:13:39 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I don't think so because everyone, at the end, makes the active choice to either be how they are or to fight to change it.

This tells me that the debate of nature vrs nuture only matters as part of understanding what choices a person needs to make and actions to take in order "to be want they want to be or not be"

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:15:07 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Does the Debate even matter?

We believe it matters because we feel the stereotypes of dominance and submission are currently misplaced. Although they are evolving and in some regards the pendulum has switched from a focus on a male dominant society to one where society sees female dominance having equal value; it is still mostly gender specific.

We see dominance or submissive tendencies further down in the foundation of what makes up an individual's personality. Further down in the pyramid of what makes up an individual's personality Dominance and submissive are similar to sexuality and gender preference; but much more equally distributed than the statistical results of homosexuality.

In other words, take gender out of the consideration and our theory is that 50% of the world is either naturally dominant or submissive. However, because traditionally females have submissive traits assigned to them and males dominant upon birth it creates personal as well as eventual relationship conflict. As said, those prejudices are changing but the battles are still being fought on gender lines; females encouraged to be more assertive (dominant) males encouraged to get in touch with their sensitive (submissive) side. That represents the impact of 'nurturing'. But what if whatever personality traits exhibited naturally were encouraged regardless of gender? What if the sensitive male youth was encouraged without being told to "be a man!". Would that encourage him to evolve into a confident male, sexually attracted to women, who happens to be best suited as a 'househusband' for a dominant female counterpart? (No D/s reference implied)

We'd enjoy a debate that includes consideration of that concept. We believe it would give more people the chance to be themselves - 'natural'.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:15:38 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
I don't think so because everyone, at the end, makes the active choice to either be how they are or to fight to change it.

This tells me that the debate of nature vrs nuture only matters as part of understanding what choices a person needs to make and actions to take in order "to be want they want to be or not be"

Sounds good to me.

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I know they're all insane
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I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:26:12 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

On a personal level, if WIITWD is "nature", then perhaps the great many folks who are trying to learn to be something they are not (or trying to teach someone else to be something they are not) can accept themselves for what they are. I find this particularly true when viewed in the context of a submissive/slave as a "piece of clay" (excuse me while I vomit) that every idiot that's been a "Master" for 24 hours is wishing to find.

John

Fundamentally then, once we accept that it is "nature", we can then get on with business and ignore all those nasty newcomers right? I mean, afterall, as is posted time and time again on these forums, someone cannot possibly be a dominant if they are not already a dominant. How terribly convenient for the incumbents. And all the subs are all perfect in every way so there is no need for anyone to learn -- they've got the magic gene so it's in their nature.

Saying submission or dominance is "in my nature" is a lot like saying "Lightning strikes trees because it is in it's nature to do so." That is an entirely accurate statement and also fails totally at helping you to build a lightning rod. It'll also get you killed on the golf course. While I am utterly certain that there are "nature" parts to this, ignoring the nurture side leads to lots of idiocy.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:42:22 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Fundamentally then, once we accept that it is "nature", we can then get on with business and ignore all those nasty newcomers right? I mean, afterall, as is posted time and time again on these forums, someone cannot possibly be a dominant if they are not already a dominant. How terribly convenient for the incumbents. And all the subs are all perfect in every way so there is no need for anyone to learn -- they've got the magic gene so it's in their nature.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The only thing I'm saying is that fantasy is fantasy, and reality is reality. And people as clay to be molded in any way that someone wants, is fantasy.

By way of example... let's take your sexuality (or mine, if it makes you feel better). If you're heterosexual (as I am), just how much "training" would be required to make you gay? Not just enough training to make you accept it, or tolerate it. But enough to actually alter your orientation. Any amount?

Point is, no one can be *made* into something they are not. If you're new and you're Dominant, submissive, slave, not sure, vanilla, gay, straight... whatever... welcome! But don't come here expecting to be *made* into something, or to do the *making*, cause it isn't gonna happen.

Can you grow and evolve? Sure, into your potential and no further. But even that is not *making* you anything you are not... just bringing out in you what already exists.

quote:

Saying submission or dominance is "in my nature" is a lot like saying "Lightning strikes trees because it is in it's nature to do so." That is an entirely accurate statement and also fails totally at helping you to build a lightning rod. It'll also get you killed on the golf course. While I am utterly certain that there are "nature" parts to this, ignoring the nurture side leads to lots of idiocy.

I do believe I said that nature was not the only factor. Here, let me check...

quote:

Although I recognize that we all stand to benefit from recognizing WIITWD as the product of nature (not entirely... just as there is no single gay gene... but in large part), I can say with intellectual honesty that I believe it to be factual.

Yep, I said it. Nature is not the only factor, but a "large part". To me that does not ignore the fact that nurture has some influence. But influence alone cannot overcome what nature has born. And whenever you're tempted to think otherwise, ask yourself again... how much training would it take to change your sexual orientation?

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/9/2008 3:43:28 PM >

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 3:47:38 PM

Divyacheri

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~Fast Reply~
The impact of the debate on nature vs. nuture is pretty clear. Watch the DVD documentary of The Secret of the Wild Child. A girl who was locked in a room from about birth, never seeing outside, barely fed, and when finally found at 10 or 11 she could not speak, walk, and had poor cognition. She was also very thin. She was considered a wild child. Once in safe hands she started to thrive learned sign language to communciate, and some words, however she functioned at the primal level. Finally at 17 she was placed into a institution where an orderlie screamed at her for wetting her bed. She then went back to not speak, or communicating, or walking again.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 4:53:44 PM

catize

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quote:

and consider if it's Nature... how would it affect you differently if at all... If it's nuture... How would that affect you differently if at all?

There are, or were, aspects of my personality that have been troublesome. It was not particularly helpful to try to figure out why I had those issues, it was more productive to learn how to change my thought processes.

However, I am very happy with my masochistic, submissive self. Whether I was ‘born’ or ‘made’ has been an interesting question to personally explore,, but it does not change or affect the fact that I have found fulfillment in BDSM.

< Message edited by catize -- 10/9/2008 4:55:41 PM >

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 5:25:51 PM

gypsygrl

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quote:

However, What about the debate within our own circle so to speak? Is there reasons within the circle that are just as valid for us that have nothing to do outside our little subculture of society?

Personally, I look at alot of my submissive traits as a creative adaption to specific environments, both those of my childhood and my adult life. This view allows me to feel good about myself and to re-assign positive meaning to behaviors which are often seen as socially undesirable and is good for my self-esteem, self-respect etc. :) Its a personal 'story' that privelidges nurture/enviroment. Or, I emphasize my choice to be submissive, a 'story' which, again allows me to feel good.

I'm not as enamored with the 'nature' explanation because, in contrast to more environmentalist scripts, there's not much room for individual agency. Once nature has done her work, the only thing left to do is to discover your nature and go with it.

Another consequence of the nature explanation is the idea that individuals do have submissive or dominant nature which tends to create the problem of figuring out what we--as individuals--really are. I don't worry much about that because I decided, when I started experimenting with WIITWD to do it as a submissive, cuz, like, ya know, I wanted to. So, my answer to the question of 'why' I'm submissive is basically because I decided to be submissive.

So, yeah, the answers do, in my mind, have implications but only if someone wants to take the time to logically think them through. I doubt that, practically speaking, many people are going to do that.

I'm not the best person to answer this question because I've spent too much time thinking about nature/nurture debates, in general, and have a hard time ascribing to either view with any kind of conviction. I tend to focus on the implications of the answers and work backwards which isn't very scientific. :)

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 5:50:48 PM

peacelili

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for me i can see where the debate has mattered only in this respect, i cannot fully embrace who i am without understanding why i am.

it took many years for me to know this deep seeded need in me, many hours of counseling and 12-step groups and pondering how being a member of a generational alcoholic family caused the values i have ingrained in me

in many respects if a fifth generation fire-fighter takes up their generational values, it is accepted with no conflict except for perhaps that persons inner emotions as to whether he/she should follow on the path of the ancestors.

but having lived in a very dysfunctional upbringing, i had to sort through what thought processes were passed to me. i had to dig through and let go of much shame that i carried for the women of my linage and bring to light in my spirit whether this kind of lifestyle and being submissive was 're-enacting' those shameful feelings.

the strenght of a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. gladly i have found that much of how i feel about being submissive is a result of watching the women i admired struggle to maintain the love and devotion to the men they were with. however long those relationships lasted didnt matter.

what i did learn and what i have accepted in my own spirit is that being a loving and devoted woman to a man makes the relationship work better and for me, to know i am engaging in a lifestyle of thought processes that relflect the way women from my lineage taught me a woman should be makes the choices i make much easier.

perhaps this is not true for all, perhaps some can accept without understanding if its just their nature to be who they are or if its the way they were nurtured. but this was a good topic and i wanted to share my insights...

namaste'
lili

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 5:57:06 PM

sravaka

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What about the debate within our own circle so to speak? Is there reasons within the circle that are just as valid for us that have nothing to do outside our little subculture of society?

On a personal level, if WIITWD is "nature", then perhaps the great many folks who are trying to learn to be something they are not (or trying to teach someone else to be something they are not) can accept themselves for what they are. I find this particularly true when viewed in the context of a submissive/slave as a "piece of clay" (excuse me while I vomit) that every idiot that's been a "Master" for 24 hours is wishing to find.

Perhaps a minor consideration, but having opinions about this can affect how one goes about evaluating potential partners. Someone might, for example, be seeking another who is D or s "by nature" because s/he associates that with being "real"... and s/he constructs his/her filters accordingly. I wonder, in fact whether there might not be a tendency for people with similar views of nature vs. nurture in wiitwd to end up gravitating toward each other even if the details go unacknowledged, and/or for trouble to erupt when the views (or realities) are wildly out of sync?

--sravaka

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 5:58:53 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I'm not as enamored with the 'nature' explanation because, in contrast to more environmentalist scripts, there's not much room for individual agency. Once nature has done her work, the only thing left to do is to discover your nature and go with it.

I'm not sure that even the most ardent proponent of the "nature" argument would make this assertion... ok, after a nanosecond's reflection upon some of the things people profess on the internet, I realize that someone out there would. But not many (I don't think).

I view Dominance and submission in the same way I view natural athletic talent (I've spent most of my life playing sports of one sort or another). Those with the most natural talent are not always the best athletes. Being born with that talent is not nearly enough. It takes plenty of time, practice, work, diligence, coaching, desire, determination and on and on and on.

Being born athletic, or Dominant or submissive, is not the be all and end all. It's not the end of your development and evolution, but the beginning.

But you have to have *it* to begin with. We're not all born with the same abilities, no matter how much desire we may have, or time and attention we devote to it.

John

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Post #: 39

RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 6:03:22 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Just because I am naturally a given way... is this a get out of jail free card?

Hell no!

You may be sadistic but you choose willing partners to practice that on. Having an innate liking for inflicting pain doesn't mean you don't have to choose your partners wisely and with their informed consent.

Being submissive doesn't mean I submit to everyone, it does mean I have to use my brain to overrule desires if acting upon those desires would be harmful to me. I choose who to submit to.

As far as it being too late now to change problems from the past? That's a cop out. We have baggage but we don't have to endlessly rummage through it. We can learn skills to deal with it, to stick it in the attic until such time as one piece of it must be dealt with again, and then stick it back out of the way. I may never totally throw it away, but that doesn't mean I'm stuck with it in the forefront at all times.

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