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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 6:20:32 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
However,  What about the debate within our own circle so to speak?  Is there reasons within the circle that are just as valid for us that have nothing to do outside our little subculture of society?


Once again, I think it depends on the context.

It's important for identifying what parts of ourselves are simply "are" and what parts of ourselves can be learned and changed.

Recently, someone posted in the Ask a Master expressing they had doubts about their own dominance and needed help with developing their confidence.

A few of the replies consisted of basically "Being a Dominant is something you just are. Clearly you aren't, because you won't be making this post if you were.".

Well....what the fuck?

Is there a "confidence" gene that comes hand in hand with the "Dom" gene? It must be next to the "self esteem" gene and along side the "master at flogging" gene.

More often than not, I see a lot of learned behaviors getting shoved in the "Bestowed upon us when we were born with our super dominant nature" file cabinet by people either a) too intellectually lazy to come up with anything actionable about how to develop those behaviors or b) looking to open their fly and take a big piss on other people under some false guise of being "special".

Now if we are talking about solely the things intricate to our self that cannot be learned or unlearned like sexual desires and certain aspects of personality, does it matter? As long as we as a group agree that when we come into being, whether by nature or by nurture, that it cannot be changed, then no.


< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/9/2008 6:21:32 PM >

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 9:28:55 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

We'd enjoy a debate that includes consideration of that concept. We believe it would give more people the chance to be themselves - 'natural'.


Great point Merc... I agree that much of the debate is along gender line stereotypes that seem to fail before they can get started.  I am not so sure that the number is a 50% split... but regardless... it does a disservice to the debate when people use these gender prejudices... not unlike so many other gender prejudices we have seen on many other issues in the past.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 9:39:14 PM   
OneMoreWaste


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Status: offline 		"Matter" as a verb is too damn squishy to say.

Gravity matters. Oxygen matters. Atomic bonds matter. They affect every aspect of life on this planet.

After that, it's all rounding error.




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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 10:41:01 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Actually, the debate is false, because the distinction is fictitious.  Nature and nurture are intertwined.  We evolved in an environment and in response to that environment.  And the environment varied, too.

I really think the "nature vs. nurture" mindset, with its bizarre conception of a radical divorce between humans and the world they live in, is a holdover from the old Biblical way of thinking.  God created us all complete, and we plopped down into our world, ready to inhabit it.  Well, that's obviously not how human beings evolved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Does the debate matter?

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 10:53:32 PM   
Durus


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Status: offline 		I think the debate is important as an intellectual excersise of self awareness as it will lead to deeper understanding, assuming that one actually looks at both sides with scrutiny. Regardless of what conclusion one came to, I'm not sure if it would actually change one's behavior. Personally I think that there is enough evidence that both nature and nurture are important. I don't think that if I believed one side to be more important then the other, or in fact felt one were true and the other false, it would change how I treated someone in a relationship.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 11:31:08 PM   
marieToo


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Status: offline 		It doesn't matter to me much anymore.  But yes, there was a time when it mattered to me, only because I had to try and understand where this came from.  I always think of this when people start threads on whether or not most submissives were abused in their childhoods.  

I've determined based on my own personal experience and introspection that I'm not like this as the result of "nurture" or anything that I experienced in my childhood.  If I felt that I'm submissive because I was abused in some way, it would matter to me.  I might try to become UNsubmissive if I thought it came from a place of abuse. But realizing that it was "nature" in my case, helps me reconcile it all and puts it to rest. So yes, it did matter to me to be able to square that away in my own head.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 11:51:41 PM   
VivaciousSub


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Status: offline 		I don't like getting into that debate with others, because my nature and nuture aren't ever going to be the same as someone else. I have examined it in the past pertaining to how I live my life and especially when considering a set of behaviors that may not be serving me well. Then, I find it helpful to explore it's origin so as to deal with it in the most effective manner.

I have thought deeply about the root of my submissiveness in the past, at the time I made the decision to consciously seek D/s as a relationship structure. As a daughter of the feminist revolution, I had been crammed full of so many messages that seemed to contradict that and I was torn. I decided that it was something in my nature that had developed through or due to my environment, made peace with it, and haven't looked back.


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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/9/2008 11:58:02 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The debate matters, the reasons one is an orientation doesn't.
 
the.dark.

 
but why does it matter?  maybe the reasons are frivalous... or maybe thoughtfully considered... maybe a little of both.  Why do you think it matters?


On a debating level, it matters.  All debate matters.  Without debate people cannot get their ideas across and people cannot learn.
 
If there is no communication, then what would be the point of anything?  That people talk, matters.
 
That, is why it matters.  Of course then you start getting down into the whole socopolitical debate and that is important too.  It's important for self discovery.  It's important for exploration and knowledge.  It is important because otherwise you would never meet someone or some people who think the same as you - debate highlights information about an individual.  Debating highlights the differences that there are and that there is no single way of being.  The subject of the debate is irrelevant.
 
You Asked -
quote:

However,  What about the debate within our own circle so to speak?  Is there reasons within the circle that are just as valid for us that have nothing to do outside our little subculture of society?


Because of the reasons above.  Just because we have some 'little circle' does not mean that everyone knows anything or everything.  Without knowing the full spectrum a person cannot learn to accept their colour and exude it.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/10/2008 12:01:56 AM   
ElectraGlide


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Status: offline 		Please explain a Switch, they are both Dominant and Submissive. I have no clue. I guess they were Nutured in Nature by both sides, at different stages of their life. It dont matter to me, we are what we are.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/10/2008 3:51:22 AM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

I'm not sure that even the most ardent proponent of the "nature" argument would make this assertion... ok, after a nanosecond's reflection upon some of the things people profess on the internet, I realize that someone out there would.  But not many (I don't think).


*nods*

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you've already made the assertion in this thread.  In fact, you've expressed the claim I'm concerned with, right here, right now, in this very post. 

I really hate getting into these kinds of discussions, but...

quote:

But you have to have *it* to begin with.  We're not all born with the same abilities, no matter how much desire we may have, or time and attention we devote to it. 



And, once individuals figure out the 'it' that they are, the next step is to develop it, cultivate it, and evolve it.  Which is saying the same thing as 'discover your nature and go with it.' 

To draw out the contrasting implications of these two views...The fact of the matter is, in pursuing the s-side of the slash, I'm pursuing my desire as a matter of conscious decision, not pre-determination.  I've spent almost no time trying to discover whether or not I was really "it"  Whether I'm a born submissive, a raised submissive, or a mixed up dominant who pig-headedly decided to do something I am totally ill-suited to, the interesting thing to me is that I made the choice, and am working out the consequences--for better or worse, and pity the people who get involved with me--of that choice.  I may totally suck as a submissive and spend the rest of my life in frustration never reaching submissive heaven.  I don't know.  (The fact that I'm also a masochist means that a life of frustrated desire appeals to me on some level. lol)  My point is, I don't know if I'm "it" to begin with.  All I know is I want to be "it" and that's where I devoted my energies. 



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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/10/2008 3:55:19 AM   
gypsygrl


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quote:

Actually, the debate is false, because the distinction is fictitious.  Nature and nurture are intertwined.  We evolved in an environment and in response to that environment.  And the environment varied, too.


Right.  Even if we talk in terms of being born the way we are, that doesn't rule out substantial environmental influence, given what we know about fetal development.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/10/2008 5:04:45 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
I'm pursuing my desire as a matter of conscious decision, not pre-determination. 


Accepting that to be the case, did you make a conscious decision that appealed to you, or one that was unappealing to you?

quote:


I've spent almost no time trying to discover whether or not I was really "it"  Whether I'm a born submissive, a raised submissive, or a mixed up dominant who pig-headedly decided to do something I am totally ill-suited to, the interesting thing to me is that I made the choice, and am working out the consequences--for better or worse, and pity the people who get involved with me--of that choice.  I may totally suck as a submissive and spend the rest of my life in frustration never reaching submissive heaven.  I don't know.  (The fact that I'm also a masochist means that a life of frustrated desire appeals to me on some level. lol)  My point is, I don't know if I'm "it" to begin with.  All I know is I want to be "it" and that's where I devoted my energies. 


I note that you have no problem stating categorically that you're a masochist.  That's one *it* that you recognize and accept in yourself.  So I presmume you'd have no problem accepting that, at the very least, you're a bottom uncertain if you're also submissive.
 
Maybe you are submissive, maybe you're not.  Most people can play the part for short periods of time, but ultimately their happiness and fulfillment is tied to whether the part was written for them or not.  Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.  But I can promise you, that if submission were against your nature, there would be no room for uncertainty.  You'd know.  Trying to shove a square peg into a round hole yields some truths.
 
John

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/10/2008 5:21:45 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Actually, the debate is false, because the distinction is fictitious.  Nature and nurture are intertwined.  We evolved in an environment and in response to that environment.  And the environment varied, too.


Right.  Even if we talk in terms of being born the way we are, that doesn't rule out substantial environmental influence, given what we know about fetal development.


And I would agree with this as well.  Even in the studies of twins comparing the results of dizygote (biological) twins and monozygote (identical) twins who presumably shared the same pre-natal and post-natal environmental influences, the rate of both identical twins being homosexual was never 100 % (I seem to recall that it was just over 50 %).  Meaning that factors other than nature (genetics) had to be in effect.  But that was still (about) twice the rate of biological twins, meaning that genetics had to be a substantial component.  And compared to the rate of nontwined siblings (about 10 % as I recall), it's clear that although nature has an influence, that influence is subordinate to nature.
 
There are several studies on the subject out there that are readily accessible on the net.
 
John

Edited to note that studies of homosexual twins does not prove that BDSM is genetic.  Only that it's reasonable to imply that BDSM has a similar mechanism since other orientations have a substantial genetic component.

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/10/2008 5:27:24 AM >

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/13/2008 4:20:18 AM   
gypsygrl


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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl
I'm pursuing my desire as a matter of conscious decision, not pre-determination. 



Accepting that to be the case, did you make a conscious decision that appealed to you, or one that was unappealing to you?


I decided to do what appealed to me.

quote:

I note that you have no problem stating categorically that you're a masochist.  That's one *it* that you recognize and accept in yourself. 


True.  Its not the only 'it' I recognize, either.  I recognize and accept the fact that, for all practical purposes, I'm submissive, whether thats a product of nature or nurture.  The OP wasn't directed at that issue, it was directed at the question of whether the 'nature/nurture' debate matters one way or the other.   So, I'm not sure why your point's relevant.

quote:

Most people can play the part for short periods of time, but ultimately their happiness and fulfillment is tied to whether the part was written for them or not.  Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.  But I can promise you, that if submission were against your nature, there would be no room for uncertainty.  You'd know.  Trying to shove a square peg into a round hole yields some truths.  


This is off-topic, but I disaggree.  If there were only two scripts, two parts written, one for D-types and one for s-types, you'd be right. But, life is never so simple.  The way I see it is that within each group, there's room for alot of different variations, maybe an infinate number of scripts, (which can be organized according to d- or s-type scripts).  I may be unhappy as a submissive because I'm working with the wrong script.  Perhaps I'm trying to accomodate myself to a hard-core, property/owner model when the Daddy/girl model might be more suited to me.  'Property' and 'girl' are variations on the more general s-type theme, but they are as different as night and day from each other.  Alternatively, I tend to be more of a doormat than most s-types I run accross so if I get stuck comparing myself to most submissives, I get caught up in a lot of self-doubt and uncertainty.

To bring it back on topic: This line of thinking illuminates one of the implications of the 'nature' answer that I mentioned above.   It seems to contain the implicit promise that, if only we correctly identify what we really are, then all uncertainty and doubt concering our D/s orientation will be removed.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/13/2008 6:05:05 AM   
Rover


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quote:


Accepting that to be the case, did you make a conscious decision that appealed to you, or one that was unappealing to you?


quote:


I decided to do what appealed to me.


Point here being that even in making a conscious decision to *be* submissive, you chose what appealed to you on an innate level.  Some might conclude that innate level to be the product of nature.

quote:


I note that you have no problem stating categorically that you're a masochist.  That's one *it* that you recognize and accept in yourself. 


quote:


True.  Its not the only 'it' I recognize, either.  I recognize and accept the fact that, for all practical purposes, I'm submissive, whether thats a product of nature or nurture.  The OP wasn't directed at that issue, it was directed at the question of whether the 'nature/nurture' debate matters one way or the other.   So, I'm not sure why your point's relevant.


I thought the issue was made relevant when you said:

quote:


The fact of the matter is, in pursuing the s-side of the slash, I'm pursuing my desire as a matter of conscious decision, not pre-determination.  I've spent almost no time trying to discover whether or not I was really "it"  Whether I'm a born submissive, a raised submissive, or a mixed up dominant who pig-headedly decided to do something I am totally ill-suited to, the interesting thing to me is that I made the choice, and am working out the consequences--for better or worse, and pity the people who get involved with me--of that choice.


I thought this implied that your decision to *be* submissive was entirely divorced from whether or not you *are* submissive.  I could be wrong, though, and that would not be the first nor last time.

quote:

Most people can play the part for short periods of time, but ultimately their happiness and fulfillment is tied to whether the part was written for them or not.  Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.  But I can promise you, that if submission were against your nature, there would be no room for uncertainty.  You'd know.  Trying to shove a square peg into a round hole yields some truths.  


quote:


This is off-topic, but I disaggree.  If there were only two scripts, two parts written, one for D-types and one for s-types, you'd be right. But, life is never so simple.  The way I see it is that within each group, there's room for alot of different variations, maybe an infinate number of scripts, (which can be organized according to d- or s-type scripts). 


Sure, there are an infinite number of scripts.  But the point is, you can't play a part (for any meaningful length of time) that's not "you" and expect to derive gratification and happiness from it.

quote:


I may be unhappy as a submissive because I'm working with the wrong script. 


I believe that was the point I was making.  Perhaps I was not making it well.  Thank you for making it for me.

quote:


Perhaps I'm trying to accomodate myself to a hard-core, property/owner model when the Daddy/girl model might be more suited to me.  'Property' and 'girl' are variations on the more general s-type theme, but they are as different as night and day from each other. 


Again, you're making the point I thought I was making as well.  Evidently I did a poor job of it.

quote:


Alternatively, I tend to be more of a doormat than most s-types I run accross so if I get stuck comparing myself to most submissives, I get caught up in a lot of self-doubt and uncertainty.


Perhaps you're comparing scripts and discovering that theirs is not the same as yours? 

quote:


To bring it back on topic: This line of thinking illuminates one of the implications of the 'nature' answer that I mentioned above.   It seems to contain the implicit promise that, if only we correctly identify what we really are, then all uncertainty and doubt concering our D/s orientation will be removed.


I can't (and didn't) speak to that issue for everyone.  But on the surface, it seems that after discovering our orientation, a certain level of acceptance would be necessary as well. 
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/13/2008 6:07:41 AM >

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/13/2008 12:21:24 PM   
Jeptha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Depends on the context. Politically? God, yes it does.

Understanding how human sexuality is formed and how changeable or unchangeable it is is incredibly important, particularly here in the U.S, because the primary argument social conservatives use to deny acceptance and rights to alternative sexualities is "choice".

I'm familiar with the emphasis placed on this argument, but whenever I hear it I don't get what ever happened to the concept of freedom to live one's life as one wishes? It's like the concept of freedom totally went out the window. In my mind, that concept trumps any debate over genetic predisposition and makes the latter trivial.
Oh, well, I guess.
I admit I'm no scientist; still many things that people claim are purely from biology sound a little far-fetched to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I view Dominance and submission in the same way I view natural athletic talent (I've spent most of my life playing sports of one sort or another). Those with the most natural talent are not always the best athletes. Being born with that talent is not nearly enough. It takes plenty of time, practice, work, diligence, coaching, desire, determination and on and on and on.

I think that's a pretty good analogy. And sometimes people with "natural talent" don't have an opportunity to thrive early on due to any number of environmental factors.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Actually, the debate is false, because the distinction is fictitious. Nature and nurture are intertwined. We evolved in an environment and in response to that environment. And the environment varied, too.

I really think the "nature vs. nurture" mindset, with its bizarre conception of a radical divorce between humans and the world they live in, is a holdover from the old Biblical way of thinking. God created us all complete, and we plopped down into our world, ready to inhabit it. Well, that's obviously not how human beings evolved.


This is closer to my own view. Some things undoubtedly are "hardwired", but I think most DNA factors are referred to as "predispositions", which will emerge only if given the right environments to produce them. And even granting that, I remain a skeptic about most behavior, and certainly personal values, being genetically encoded.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/13/2008 2:21:22 PM   
lateralist1


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Status: offline 		The debate matters to me because I learn from it.
I was waiting for someone to come up with the word predisposition.
The predisposition of a submissive I am going to get involved with matters to me.
I am predisposed to being dominant BUT it is a choice.
I want my BDSM partner to be predisposed to being submissive especially sexually but for it to be a choice.
If he is then we are going to find it easier to create a D/s relationship because we are predisposed  to be the other half of the whole.
I also want him to be predisposed to BDSM not seeking it to fulfil some need that was created by abuse.
I have enough problems differentiating my own dominant drives from those created by my childhood circumstances. Without having to do the same for him.
One is a predisposition towards a particular lifestyle that suits us. The other is an illness that has been created in us. The first will allow me to be happy I hope. The second will never be fulfilling because it comes from an obsession with past emotions or sensations.
I've talked to a lot of BDSM subs or bottoms who admit to trying to recapture the past. Trying to recapture the past is not healthy. Understanding it and learning from it, changing ones behaviours so as not to make the same mistakes again and then moving on is healthy. I've almost managed to do that.
Why am I doing this? Do I want to do this or it it a set of bahaviours that I would be better off unlearning? If I don't do it I feel bad Yes but if you do do it you'll feel worse.
To be in control of my own behaviour and my relationships is my need.
Without that control I can not be happy.
That's where I am now.
The amount of control that I need may vary depending on the depth of the relationship.
However to create that relationship takes more than two people having the opposite predisposition. The environment and the personalities involved are important. Timimg has a great deal to do with most things in life. Meeting the right person at the right time, getting the right job etc etc. Everything that randomly happens to us has it's effect.  Having the courage to be my dominant self no matter what anyone thinks has been my salvation.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/13/2008 5:14:22 PM   
yourMissTress


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quote:

Even if something come from a natural stand point, don't you think we would still consider how it's affecting our life?


The discussion is important, not because we need an answer, but because it's good to imagine what the answers might be.  Which brings me to one of Socrates' greatest questions.  "What is good?"


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RE: Nature Vs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/14/2008 5:40:31 AM   
LPslittleclip


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Status: offline 		i am by nature a helpful and caring person and by nurture a submissive. 
debate matters as without it there would be stagnation and nothing new in the world.

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RE: Nature Vrs Nuture... Does it Matter? - 10/14/2008 9:09:54 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

if it's Nature... how would it affect you differently if at all... If it's nuture... How would that affect you differently if at all? Does the debate matter?


This comes down to a debate of agency verses structure... personally I do not believe either one rules the day. I do think it matters to some degree if it is nature or nurture as to whether we are the way that we are. I do not like to think that the experiences I have are all due to my genetic code, nor do I believe that we are completely at the mercy of what we have experienced. I think that if someone bought the line that it was nurture that shaped their life completely the might believe that something they experienced (such as abuse) made them the way that they are. I think our experiences may shape us, but unless the raw material was there to shape in the first place it would not matter what happened to us.

How does this matter in my daily life? I actually study agency versus structure in  my academic career. It is a very big question theoretically in my field, so I might not be the right person to ask this question of. How does it impact me on a personal level? I tend to like to think that I am in charge over the course of my life, even though I maybe shaped by events or the raw material that composes me as an individual.


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(in reply to KnightofMists)
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