RE: Independence for Wales - NOW!

RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (Full Version)

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hapistan -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 8:52:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix Honestly, what a load of rubbish. You didn't even read the OP properly. LadyE said the English, ipso facto, were expected to pay for the Welsh prison. because she's seemingly oblivious to the fact that as far as british law goes, england and wales aren't seperate in any way. english and welsh money pays for prisons in england and/or wales. and both countries are short of prison places, so it does rather make sense to build one somewhere that has a shortage, rather than say, yet another one by liverpool...

Aneirin -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 8:54:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: NumberSix Right On!!!!! Seriously, all you have to do to see what the English have done to Wales, is take a drive and look around the place. England is gold plated everything while Wales looks fucked over. And I'm talking about everything, including the landscape. The Welsh have been on the receiving end of a jolly rodgering for centuries and the best thing they could do would be to leave the U.K. Gold plated everything ? Well certainly not in my part of England, nor any part I have lived in, and I have moved through the country from the far poor North West to the equally poor South West, stopping at Lincoln, Birmingham and Oxford along the way, yeah Oxford might be different, but that is a city of the elite.

hapistan -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 8:57:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman *Outstanding ignorance, even for you. Well done.* Have you ever been to Wales ? The place is completely fucked. Everything in it. Wales should leave the UK, and stay with the Commonwealth and possibly the EU. They'd be much better off. this is just stupid. Are you saying Wales has every advantage ? When I first went to Wales I have to say I was shocked. How could a place be so literally fucked and not have open rebellion ? They're a people that have been completely subjugated. Utterly fucked over. It makes Rwanda look gentile. wales has pockets of horrific poverty and oustanding beauty just like most of britain does. the idea that its being fucked over by england is a silly one with no basis in fact, theres no open rebellion because: what would they rebel against? wales has a wonderful tradition of socialism and other such political rebellions, but the idea of it rebelling against england is as daft as the north rebelling against the south, the history of both nations is completely and utterly intertwined; to the point that now, and england and wales are one nation.

Venatrix -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 8:59:07 PM)
Actually, the "load of rubbish" was in response to Moloch's ridiculous remarks about WWI. Given that the amount of Welsh money contributed to the budget is much smaller than that of the English, I think Lady E's point is well taken. In any case, they'll put the prison in the place it makes the most sense, particularly given the budget constraints to be faced in the near future. I'm afraid I'm not feeling a trememdous amount of sympathy because it's difficult for one's relations to visit one in prison. It's not supposed to be Butlin's, after all. Though I dare say Butlin's would probably be worse.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 8:59:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Gold plated everything ? Well certainly not in my part of England, nor any part I have lived in, and I have moved through the country from the far poor North West to the equally poor South West, stopping at Lincoln, Birmingham and Oxford along the way, yeah Oxford might be different, but that is a city of the elite. England is full of people who don't work. Why ? They have everyone else everywhere else, working for them.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 9:01:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan what would they rebel against? The English. The idea that Wales is intertwined with England is an English one. Basically Wales was defeated and due to its proximity has been robbed of anything of any real value by the English.

hapistan -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 9:02:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix Actually, the "load of rubbish" was in response to Moloch's ridiculous remarks about WWI. Given that the amount of Welsh money contributed to the budget is much smaller than that of the English, per capita, the welsh get by far the rawest deal in the union. (and scotland the best) england may pay the most but thats simply cos of the massive wealth in the city of london.

hapistan -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 9:06:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan what would they rebel against? The English. The idea that Wales is intertwined with England is an English one. Basically Wales was defeated and due to its proximity has been robbed of anything of any real value by the English. wales was defeated IN THE TWELTH CENTURY! theres not a large cause for seperation now, your rather strange viewpoint is not a cause celebre in wales, and they don't even really hate us that much.

Moloch -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 9:25:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan and the english. the idea that the welsh and scots were sent to be slaughtered on behalf of england is a very silly one, and frankly hugely insulting to the millions of englishmen who perished. That's funny! Id like you to say that in Ireland. If you ignore a fact its still there.

hapistan -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 10:24:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan and the english. the idea that the welsh and scots were sent to be slaughtered on behalf of england is a very silly one, and frankly hugely insulting to the millions of englishmen who perished. That's funny! Id like you to say that in Ireland. If you ignore a fact its still there. what on earth are you waffling on about? what even is your point? I could quite happily and easily make my point in ireland, I'm a celt, from celtic city, I speak with a celtic accent, christ i've family that went to jail for fighting the english. it doesn't make your comment any the less offensive or absurd to me.

meatcleaver -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/12/2008 11:09:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan what would they rebel against? The English. The idea that Wales is intertwined with England is an English one. Basically Wales was defeated and due to its proximity has been robbed of anything of any real value by the English. You're really talking bollocks. Genetic mapping has shown there is little genetic diffence between the English, Scots, Welsh and yes, even the Irish such is the mixing of population over the last thousand years. All are a mix of Celtic and Germanic blood of varying degrees(sorry to those Irish that want to be unique but you aren't). The real reason people want to divide people is because they are bitter for some reason or they have a political motive. Most people don't know their family history more than a couple of generations back such was the upheaval in the industrial revolution that an Englishman complaining about the Celts could just as easily be complaining about his own forefathers and the same with the Irish, Welsh and Scots complaining about the English. Even the Irish from the west of Ireland have signifiicant amounts of English blood in them according to genetic mapping results, no doubt courtesy of Cromwell's army that settled there.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 3:09:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan and they don't even really hate us that much. Yes they do, but they don't tell you to your face.

Paulnz -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 3:12:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Genetic mapping has shown there is little genetic diffence between the English, Scots, Welsh and yes, even the Irish such is the mixing of population over the last thousand years. All are a mix of Celtic and Germanic blood of varying degrees(sorry to those Irish that want to be unique but you aren't). Totally irrelevant. Anyone unlucky to be living in Wales anytime in the last few centuries has been totally fucked over. The English are equal opportunity exploiters like that.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 4:11:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman *Outstanding ignorance, even for you. Well done.* Have you ever been to Wales ? The place is completely fucked. Everything in it. Wales should leave the UK, and stay with the Commonwealth and possibly the EU. They'd be much better off. Now as it happens (Jimmy Saville moment), I live about 45 minutes from the current Welsh border (about ten minutes from the old border on the Severn) and have been happily roaming Wales as a child with my family or school and then as an adult these last 35 years that I remember, for holidays, camping trips, day trips and even for (how could it be possible?) business. I certainly cant claim to have been in or even through every single Welsh hamlet or village, but at a guess I'd say I've likely covered about 95% of the country at some time, and likely a good 50% on a frequent basis. From what I've seen, the place is far from fucked as you so eloquently put it. Its true that like the rest of the UK (particularly England as it happens) the industrial areas went through a bad period from the 80s on for about ten years, as the de-industrialisation process (the one you claim to be progress, remember?) went on, but aside from perhaps a few areas in the south (areas not unlike corresponding areas in England) there has been remarkable recovery. If you would like to discuss the matter further then please write "Wales is fucked" on a postcard, and send it to Plaid Cymru, c/o The National Assembly, Cardiff. I have this feeling that Plaid Cymru themselves might disagree with your opinion - but what would they know about Wales? E

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 4:14:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz England is full of people who don't work. Why ? They have everyone else everywhere else, working for them. Indeed, we do have a stubborn unemployment problem in England. Strangely its the same in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and throughout western Europe too. Its really ever since we went for de-industrialisation in the 80s (that progress you're so fond of). *Now, how is it exactly that unemployed Americans are unemployed because they are lazy arrogant idiots, whilst the unemployed Welsh are victims of circumstance?* E

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 4:16:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman *Outstanding ignorance, even for you. Well done.* Have you ever been to Wales ? The place is completely fucked. Everything in it. Wales should leave the UK, and stay with the Commonwealth and possibly the EU. They'd be much better off. Now as it happens (Jimmy Saville moment), I live about 45 minutes from the current Welsh border (about ten minutes from the old border on the Severn) and have been happily roaming Wales as a child with my family or school and then as an adult these last 35 years that I remember, for holidays, camping trips, day trips and even for (how could it be possible?) business. I certainly cant claim to have been in or even through every single Welsh hamlet or village, but at a guess I'd say I've likely covered about 95% of the country at some time, and likely a good 50% on a frequent basis. From what I've seen, the place is far from fucked as you so eloquently put it. Its true that like the rest of the UK (particularly England as it happens) the industrial areas went through a bad period from the 80s on for about ten years, as the de-industrialisation process (the one you claim to be progress, remember?) went on, but aside from perhaps a few areas in the south (areas not unlike corresponding areas in England) there has been remarkable recovery. If you would like to discuss the matter further then please write "Wales is fucked" on a postcard, and send it to Plaid Cymru, c/o The National Assembly, Cardiff. I have this feeling that Plaid Cymru themselves might disagree with your opinion - but what would they know about Wales? E We forget that paulq knows all. I am going to start calling him encarta jackass.

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 4:22:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: hapistan and they don't even really hate us that much. Yes they do, but they don't tell you to your face. Yes, there's rivalry - but hate? I dont think so. Imagine if you will, my ex and I taking a holiday in Snowdonia about twenty years ago. We rented a cottage in a tiny hamlet well off the main road and were pleased to see there was a small shop next to the pub. When we entered the shop there was no one there, but there was a sign (in English) to say to ask in the pub. So we went into the pub to ask - the place was full to bursting with Welsh speakers, all gabbing away about something or other (presumably insurrection of course) and the place went deadly silent when our English voices were heard. "oh shit" we thought. But there was no animosity, just surprise that anyone from the outside was there. A nice chap stepped forward and helped us out with the shop and said if there was anything else we needed, we should come to the pub and ask for him. We spent a week there and we survived - it would have been a small matter to get rid of us one way or another for them, but even in this nationalist area we were made welcome. E

LadyEllen -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 4:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz Totally irrelevant. Anyone unlucky to be living in Wales anytime in the last few centuries has been totally fucked over. The English are equal opportunity exploiters like that. Wrong again. The Welsh have for the past many centuries made a good living out of selling their wool, sheep and cattle to the English. Many English border towns had regular markets for such, supplied almost exclusively by Welsh farmers who had driven their livestock and goods over the border to sell here. Equally, there have been many instances of Welsh farmers engaging in rustling across the border. Dont really see where anyone has been "fucked over" as you so poetically express it E

Aneirin -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 5:04:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Genetic mapping has shown there is little genetic diffence between the English, Scots, Welsh and yes, even the Irish such is the mixing of population over the last thousand years. All are a mix of Celtic and Germanic blood of varying degrees(sorry to those Irish that want to be unique but you aren't). Totally irrelevant. Anyone unlucky to be living in Wales anytime in the last few centuries has been totally fucked over. The English are equal opportunity exploiters like that. Interesting Paulnz's comments, this apparent dislike for the English, to the more sensitive, his comments could be seen as bordering on racism.

meatcleaver -> RE: Independence for Wales - NOW! (10/13/2008 5:11:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Paulnz quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Genetic mapping has shown there is little genetic diffence between the English, Scots, Welsh and yes, even the Irish such is the mixing of population over the last thousand years. All are a mix of Celtic and Germanic blood of varying degrees(sorry to those Irish that want to be unique but you aren't). Totally irrelevant. Anyone unlucky to be living in Wales anytime in the last few centuries has been totally fucked over. The English are equal opportunity exploiters like that. Oh you are such a bitter manPauknz. I assume you have actually lived a significant part of your life in Britain and know the relationship between those that were fucked and those fucked over. Since there hasn't been an English King for a thousand years but there has been Scottish and Welsh houses and many leading politicians have been Scotish, Welsh and Irish, I think the English could make the claim to being fucked over by the Celts. However, we aren't as bitter as you and since you are in New Zealand, it would be interesting to know where your bitterness comes from.

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