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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 9:03:34 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


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Hate keeps my black heart beating. Thats why I read. 

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 9:04:13 PM   
Celene


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hapistan


I dont agree with that sentiment, if someone offers to take the time to help you register, why not take it if you are busy/lazy/whatever?

fraud is of course unjustifiable.
but then i think, what if it was germany 1930, and someone was mobilising to cheat hitler out of representation?



I must be too tired to understand the point being made here. People are too lazy or busy or whatever to fill in a simple registration form... but then they go home and get their second wind or clear their calendar and can easily make it to the polls with the information (or whatever) to vote?
And can you explain what you are thinking with the statement about 1930 and cheating hitler??? I'm lost - someone tuck me in.

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 9:06:00 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

Hate keeps my black heart beating. Thats why I read. 
Happy to help Rex...let me know if I can do anything else....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 9:18:09 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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How many legit regs.have they done,compared to a few bum ones?

I bet they do better than the average.

This might be the set-up for creating excuses why McCain lost.

Anything but that he`s a looser.

~~~~~~~~~~

ACORN pays by the reg. and makes it clear that they will be back-checked.The low wagers are just trying to get 30 or 40 more bucks out of the day.Their interest isn`t political,it`s financial.

ACORN knows this and checks out each person against the addresses.

They have turned in people themselves and work with law enforcement when needed.

There`s no evidence that there is an organized effort to commit fraud.

Plenty of republican politicians trying to say so,tho.But it`s an election season,so whatever they say is purely partisan and doesn`t matter.(stolen from Karl Rove)

It`s also a huge stretch to say that a dead guy or dog will vote or that there`s a secrete army of voters armed with fake registrations to cast multiple votes.

Interesting that only republican politicians are going after ACORN and making the jump to connecting Obama to them.

ACORN has no state officials helping them commit election fraud.the way Kathrine Harris or Jeb did in Florida.That fraud was state sponsored.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/11/2008 9:56:28 PM >


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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 9:23:32 PM   
NumberSix


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From little acorns, mighty oaks will grow. This is far to late to ask do the ends justify the means, that sort of discussion could have been entered into several years ago.



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"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 11:31:51 PM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

After reading all of the outrage about the Diebold voting machines in these forums, I am wondering what people are thinking of ACORN's voter registration movement?


"Do the ends justify the means"?  

Kind of an open ended cliche...  It depends on the issue...it depends on whether the "ends" someone is using impact the rights and freedom of choice in a democracy.  Voter fraud gets right at the core of taking away all of our rights in favor of someone opposed to our views since that fraudulent vote nullifies our legitimate vote.  And why stop at just stuffing the ballot box with phony votes when there is soo much more basic harm that can be done to an oppoent.  Where does the "end" ...end..in the name of a cause.  Bill Ayers thought bombing buildings was justified to get his anti-war message out.   Heck, if that townhouse did not blow up NYC who knows what wonderful "ends" would have come out of that guy.

So to answer the question posed...No, not if the "ends" take away the constitutions rights of a citizen as voter fraud does, or if the "ends" involve violence and put innocent lives in danger.


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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/11/2008 11:37:25 PM   
NumberSix


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Look, cory....
It ain't like stuffing a ballot box with dead people is going to hurt McCain.....he's a stooge and can't win, it gives you a little something to cavil about.   so everybody wins, ride the bridge to nowhere, grasshopper.

Kwai Chang Kaine  

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 12:38:36 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

Look, cory....
It ain't like stuffing a ballot box with dead people is going to hurt McCain.....he's a stooge and can't win, it gives you a little something to cavil about.   so everybody wins, ride the bridge to nowhere, grasshopper.

Kwai Chang Kaine  


"A wet duck never flies at night"!  betcha...




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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 12:43:45 AM   
NumberSix


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10-4 buddy, don't fly to low, like so many I can't even name, or too high like aescapulus.

6

_____________________________

"Who are you?"
"The new Number Two."
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six.".
"I am not a number — I am a free man!"

Be seeing you...

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 8:33:56 AM   
JohnboyNC


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That is where you are wrong #6......
This is a close race no matter what you or others believe.  Fake voter registration forms, some with early votes already cast, are coming in all over the country.  This can and will have an effect on the outcome. 

This is a well thought out stragedy.  I believe in conspiracy theories, just like many believe Bush is one of the biggest conspiracy types of our time.  I believe the Dem & Pub parties have their own plan for us all!  -

Alot of third party voters are sitting back and waiting for the implosion. 

< Message edited by JohnboyNC -- 10/12/2008 8:34:40 AM >

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 9:23:56 AM   
JohnboyNC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

After reading all of the outrage about the Diebold voting machines in these forums, I am wondering what people are thinking of ACORN's voter registration movement?


Another thing that concerns me is the most pure right we have as Americans is being corrupted. 
Also, if the Obama campaign was innocent in it's participation, why hasn't someone spoken up and defended him.  We hear & read these allegations and charges, but we are not given any proof as to his innocense in this horrible scandal.  The only defense I hear is "yawn" or "this is just rethoric from the pubs because they are scared of loosing". 

Give the voters reason to believe Obama is not corrupt.  Give Americans reason to trust him.

< Message edited by JohnboyNC -- 10/12/2008 9:27:04 AM >

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 9:45:22 AM   
slvemike4u


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A little cold reality here ...there is a major step missing between registring dead people...and the dead actually voting.....when someone figures out a process whereby the dead can get up and appear at a polling place on Nov 4th(or cats for that matter)...I will start to worry,till than all is cool.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 12:33:00 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From an ACORN internal memo:

"To: Interested Parties
From: Bertha Lewis and Steve Kest
Date:  October 9, 2008
Re: The Truth About ACORN's Voter Registration Drive

Election Day is less than a month away, and our efforts to make sure that low-income and minority voters have a voice and vote on November 4th are in full swing.  Unfortunately, just as we've seen in previous election cycles, the more success we have in empowering these voters, the more attacks we have to fend off from partisan forces making unfounded accusations to disparage our work and help maintain the status quo of an unbalanced electorate. We want to take this opportunity to separate the facts of our successes from the falsehoods of our attackers.

On Monday, October 6, as voter registration deadlines passed in most states, ACORN completed the largest, most successful nonpartisan voter registration drive in history.  In partnership with the nonpartisan organization Project Vote, we helped register over 1.3 million low-income, minority, and young voters in a total of 21 states.  Highlights of this success include:

We collected over 151,000 registrations in Florida, 153,000 in Pennsylvania, 215,000 in Michigan, and nearly 250,000 in Ohio.

An estimated 60-70 percent of our applicants are people of color.

At least HALF of all are registrations are from young people between 18-29.

We are proud of this unprecedented success, and grateful to everyone who supported us in this massive effort, from our funders and partners to the literally thousands of hardworking individuals across the country who dedicated themselves to the cause and conducted the difficult work of registering 1.3 million Americans, one voter at a time.

And this work is far from over: now begins our effort mobilize these new voters around local and national issues, getting them to the polls and helping to channel their commitment and conviction into an ongoing movement for change in our communities.

As The Nation pointed out recently, ACORN's success in registering millions of low-income and minority voters has made it "something of a right-wing bogeyman." Though ACORN believes that the right to vote is not, and should never be, a partisan issue, attacks from groups threatened by our historic success continue to come, motivated by partisan politics and often perpetuated by the media without full investigation of the facts. As a result, there have been a few recent stories about investigations of former ACORN workers for turning in incomplete, erroneous, or fraudulent voter registration applications. Predictably, partisan forces have tried to use these isolated incidents to incite fear of the "bogeyman" of "widespread voter fraud." But we want to take this opportunity to set the record straight and tell you a few facts to show how these incidents really exemplify everything that ACORN is doing right:

Fact: ACORN has implemented the most sophisticated quality-control system in the voter engagement field, but in almost every state we are required to turn in ALL completed applications, even the ones we know to be problematic.

Fact: ACORN flags incomplete, problem, or suspicious cards when we turn them in, but these warnings are often ignored by election officials. Often these same officials then come back weeks or months later and accuse us of deliberately turning in phony cards.

Fact: Our canvassers are paid by the hour, not by the card, so there is NO incentive for them to falsify cards. ACORN has a zero-tolerance policy for deliberately falsifying registrations, and in the relatively rare cases where our internal quality controls have identified this happening we have fired the workers involved and turned them in to election officials and law-enforcement.

Fact: No charges have ever been brought against ACORN itself.  Convictions against individual former ACORN workers have been accomplished with our full cooperation, using the evidence obtained through our quality control and verification processes.

Fact: Voter fraud by individuals is extremely rare, and incredibly difficult. There has never been a single proven case of anyone, anywhere, casting an illegal vote as a result of a phony voter registration. Even if someone wanted to influence the election this way, it would not work.

Fact: Most election officials have recognized ACORN's good work and praised our quality control systems. Even in the cities where election officials have complained about ACORN, the applications in question represent less than 1% of the thousands and thousands of registrations ACORN has collected.

Fact: Our accusers not only fail to provide any evidence, they fail to suggest a motive: there is virtually no chance anyone would be able to vote fraudulently, so there is no reason to deliberately submit phony registrations. ACORN is committed to ensuring that the greatest possible numbers of people are registered and allowed to vote, so there is also NO incentive to "disrupt the system" with phony cards.

Fact: Similar accusations were made, and attacks launched, against ACORN and other voter registration organizations in 2004 and 2006. These attacks were not only groundless, they have since been exposed as part of the U.S. Attorneygate scandal and revealed to be part of a systematic partisan agenda of voter suppression.

These are the facts, and the truth is that a relatively small group of political operatives are trying to orchestrate hysteria about "voter fraud" and manufacture public outrage that they can use to further suppress the votes of millions of low-income and minority Americans.

These tactics are nothing new, and history has shown that they will come to nothing. We'll continue to weather the storm, as we've done for years, and we'll continue to share the truth about our work and express pride about our accomplishments.
Most importantly, we want to assure you that this good work continues, unabated and undeterred. ACORN will not be intimidated, we will not be provoked, and in this important moment in history we will not allow anyone to distract us from these vital efforts to empower our constituencies and our communities to speak for themselves. If the partisan political machines are afraid of low-income and minority voters, they're going to have to do a lot better than coming after ACORN.

After all, there are now at least 1.3 million more of them, and they will not be silenced. They're taking an interest, and taking a stand, and they'll be taking their concerns to the voting booth in November.

And ACORN will be here, to make sure that the voices of these Americans are heard, on Election Day and for every day to come."


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 12:44:07 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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"Voter Fraud" virtually non-existent:

"
Besides rejecting the notion that hordes of ineligible voters are stealing elections, the consultants’ study refutes another common Republican claim—that false registration forms are leading to rampant fraud. The study even cites Craig Donsanto, chief of the Justice Department’s election crimes branch, as saying “the number of election fraud related complaints has not gone up since 2002.” He also says the “proportion of legitimate to illegitimate claims of fraud” is unchanged.
The Justice Department’s own statistics show that of 87 ballot-fraud convictions obtained since the department launched its “voter integrity” initiative in 2002, 17 were for noncitizen voting and another six were for multiple voting. Most of the cases involved vote-buying schemes hatched by local politicians in Kentucky, West Virginia and elsewhere.
So, with 122 million votes cast in the 2004 elections, and about 83 million cast last November, what are the statistical chances that some votes are fraudulent? You do the math."
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070314_the_real_voter_fraud/

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 8:31:02 PM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

Watch the news...or read a newspaper whatever. 12 states have found ACORN voter reg forms with fictitious names, dead people, the cowboys, etc. One county in Ohio alone has 2100 that they have counted. So in this case there is ample evidence to investigate and more than likely convict many people. Yes people registering to vote is a grand thing, but I think people themselves should do it, not rely on interest groups to do it. So, there is a mountain of evidence, not just speculation. go have your chuckle now. 


Makes one wonder what you watch and read. Fox news and the newspaper equivalents, no doubt.

That said, I agree with you to some extent, at least in theory. I'd prefer that every voter be not only well-informed, but capable of rational thinking, and that seems more likely from someone who takes the initiative than from someone recruited by a campaign worker.

Frankly, though, the voter registration issue is much to do about nothing. The number of illegitimate voter registrations is miniscule compared to the millions of voters wrongly influenced by deceitful campaign ads and deceitful commentary from partisan TV/radio hosts. And there's little difference between a campaign worker or community organizer recruiting a voter and someone being sucked in by a political ad on TV. A gullible person falling for a deceitful ad makes a decision just as bad as one influenced by questionable voter registration tactics.

There's an interesting article in Time magazine about why people vote the way they do, and according to their research, a large percentage of people vote against their own interests, largely because they don't understand the candidates' policy positions. Many voters don't research enough, and don't get information from enough different sources, so vote in ignorance. Some others gather a lot of information, but don't know how to sort out fact from fiction, get confused, and vote in a state not much better than ignorance. Karl Rove's strategy has been to maximize the number of ignorant and confused voters, and that strategy succeeded twice for W. He couldn't possibly have been elected if everyone really knew what he stood for.

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 9:12:13 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnboyNC

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

After reading all of the outrage about the Diebold voting machines in these forums, I am wondering what people are thinking of ACORN's voter registration movement?


Another thing that concerns me is the most pure right we have as Americans is being corrupted. 
Also, if the Obama campaign was innocent in it's participation, why hasn't someone spoken up and defended him.  We hear & read these allegations and charges, but we are not given any proof as to his innocense in this horrible scandal.  The only defense I hear is "yawn" or "this is just rethoric from the pubs because they are scared of loosing". 

Give the voters reason to believe Obama is not corrupt.  Give Americans reason to trust him.
Of course in your mind Obama needs defending against charges that Acorn is filing fraudulent registration forms.....Care to explain that in an intelligent fashion....BTW this is America Obama need not prove his innocence,it is incumbant upon those making the scurrilous charge to prove their allegation.....capice?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to JohnboyNC)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 9:21:43 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

Watch the news...or read a newspaper whatever. 12 states have found ACORN voter reg forms with fictitious names, dead people, the cowboys, etc. One county in Ohio alone has 2100 that they have counted. So in this case there is ample evidence to investigate and more than likely convict many people. Yes people registering to vote is a grand thing, but I think people themselves should do it, not rely on interest groups to do it. So, there is a mountain of evidence, not just speculation. go have your chuckle now. 


Makes one wonder what you watch and read. Fox news and the newspaper equivalents, no doubt.

That said, I agree with you to some extent, at least in theory. I'd prefer that every voter be not only well-informed, but capable of rational thinking, and that seems more likely from someone who takes the initiative than from someone recruited by a campaign worker.

Frankly, though, the voter registration issue is much to do about nothing. The number of illegitimate voter registrations is miniscule compared to the millions of voters wrongly influenced by deceitful campaign ads and deceitful commentary from partisan TV/radio hosts. And there's little difference between a campaign worker or community organizer recruiting a voter and someone being sucked in by a political ad on TV. A gullible person falling for a deceitful ad makes a decision just as bad as one influenced by questionable voter registration tactics.

There's an interesting article in Time magazine about why people vote the way they do, and according to their research, a large percentage of people vote against their own interests, largely because they don't understand the candidates' policy positions. Many voters don't research enough, and don't get information from enough different sources, so vote in ignorance. Some others gather a lot of information, but don't know how to sort out fact from fiction, get confused, and vote in a state not much better than ignorance. Karl Rove's strategy has been to maximize the number of ignorant and confused voters, and that strategy succeeded twice for W. He couldn't possibly have been elected if everyone really knew what he stood for.




Actually saw it on CNN and in my local newspaper. Everything else is pretty much what I think as well. Sad thing is I saw a commercial for an election special about college age people who have very...lacking knowledge of their own country, and yet just registered. Hurray. Oh, and Rove is a the biggest skeezebucket hell demon ever...like gobbels or something.


_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 9:47:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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Rex are you sugesting a competancy test to gain the right to vote?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/12/2008 9:53:38 PM   
smilingjaguar


Posts: 271
Status: offline
*fr*

What I find interesting in the Indiana ACORN problems is that there are 2200 false applications that appear to have been filled out and signed by the same person.  That doesn't smell like a problem with the organization; it sounds like they had a bad apple and need to work with the officials in Indiana to find this person and make sure that he/she is not involved in future ACORN activity.  As for the other states I don't have exact information on what the problems were but am waiting for more detailed information.

What I *do* find repulsive is that Repubs are looking up foreclosures so they can challenge the right to vote of people who have recently lost their home and did not have the time to change the address on their registration forms.  Apparently they believe those people will favor Obama by a wide margin...

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RE: ACORN: In your opinion do the ends justify the means? - 10/13/2008 3:54:30 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Rex are you sugesting a competancy test to gain the right to vote?


Not at all. I am just sickened by people not knowing a damn thing voting, But thats the wonder of democracy, isn't it?


_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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