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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:16:28 AM   
CruelDesires


Posts: 824
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Write a contract out on toilet paper. Thats about all it is worth.

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:17:05 AM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I think that if you need blackmail to hold on to a servant, that wouldn't be the servant for me.

Calla Firestorm


That's all fine and good, but I don't think the OP implied that she needed blackmail to hold on to a servant. Her interest is based on the added excitement it gives the sub when he feels that he is truly under her control. Some subs need that extra coercion to feel that excitement of having no choice in the matter.

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:17:46 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		No one can be forced into doing something they really don't want to do. Blackmail only works if you allow it. Also, I've never liked the idea of beginning a relationship based on a kink. They don't work out, in the long run, unless they develop into one with a basis of communication, respect and trust. It seems to me that something based on blackmail can't, by definition, have those.

Master Fire


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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:18:08 AM   
MsAuthoritarian


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/14/2008
Status: offline 		1. How can someone consent to a non-consensual relationship? That seems like an oxymoron to me. One either consents to the relationship or they do not. If they do not consent and the person still proceeds as if consent was given then they are looking at kidnapping charges at the very least.
2. When it comes to releasing embarrassing photos/videos for default of the contract in some way. If the person is identifiable in said pictures or video then you just may be risking their future; relationships, business, family, friends, etc. I do not think the risk is worth your extra spice. If you make sure their identity is not at risk, go for it. Sometimes it is not what is done but how it is done.

MsAuthoritarian

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:20:31 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		So if he changes his mind and is only there while hating it and you, you would still want him? You would want an angry, uncooperative person in your life who did a poor job at everything in an attempt for you to fire him?

Because if you fire him, and still use the blackmail material the contract is null and void because you broke it first. Not to mention that you cannot contract illegal things and have them stand up in court. Blackmail is illegal. Use it or threaten to in order to coerce someone and you go to jail, don't pass go, don't get $200. Oh and do expect a civil suit as well for as much as you're worth.

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:22:10 AM   
leadership527


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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:24:12 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I think that if you need blackmail to hold on to a servant, that wouldn't be the servant for me.

Calla Firestorm


Isn't this because we're talking about slaves, not servants? Maybe it's me, but I don't see any sort of similarity.


I've posted on this issue before -- if there is consent involved, to me it can't be called "slavery" -- so I won't use the term. Servants are servants are servants -- those who yield up everything in our household are called bond-servants, but since the law won't let us keep them chained up in the basement against their will, and because I have personal-ethics issues with that whole "human chattel" idea and am a severe "terminology fetishist", I stick to terms that approach 'honest description of the dynamic' to me... and the sentiment above still holds.

Calla Firestorm

Calla Firestorm

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/12/2008 8:48:47 AM >

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:26:52 AM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I think that if you need blackmail to hold on to a servant, that wouldn't be the servant for me.

Calla Firestorm


Isn't this because we're talking about slaves, not servants? Maybe it's me, but I don't see any sort of similarity.


I've posted on this issue before -- if there is consent involved, to me it can't be called "slavery" -- so I won't use the term. Servants are servants are servants -- those who yield up everything in our household are called bond-servants, but since the law won't let us keep them chained up in the basement against their will, and because I'm a "terminology fetishist", I stick to terms that approach 'honest description of the dynamic' to me... and the sentiment above still holds.

Calla Firestorm

Calla Firestorm


Ah right, now I see where you're coming from. Thank you. It is me, I'm a bit dense today.

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:28:25 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

That's all fine and good, but I don't think the OP implied that she needed blackmail to hold on to a servant. Her interest is based on the added excitement it gives the sub when he feels that he is truly under her control. Some subs need that extra coercion to feel that excitement of having no choice in the matter.


I am quoting from the OP's post (emphasis mine):

quote:

Ingred suggests the compulsion be a set of embarrassing photos/videos of the slave which, he agrees in the beginning, would only be released as a penalty for his default on the slave commitment (contract)


Nothing in that phrase about any special 'kick' for the s-type... strictly the comment that blackmail would be the method for insuring that the s-type held up the contract.

Again, if you look at the last two words in my post, I am -more- than clear that it wouldn't work for me, regardless of who else might think it was just duckie.

CFB

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/12/2008 8:29:00 AM >

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:29:04 AM   
spankablemilf


Posts: 57
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline 		To me this is rather a absurd plan/idea...but that's just me.  All of D/s is pretty much an illusion.  No court of law would ever uphold any such relationship.  So, unless you're looking to become a slave to the state in which you reside I'd keep the fantasy inside the head in which is commenced.

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:31:32 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Ah right, now I see where you're coming from. Thank you. It is me, I'm a bit dense today.


Thanks Stella... I have this "Adrian Monk" word neurosis, ya know... *grins*

CFB

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:38:25 AM   
MmeGigs


Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
The only form of real slavery in my opinion, and it's not going to be popular view but it is how I see it none the less, is non consensual. Anyone that chooses to be a slave at any point has made that choice therefore they aren’t a real slave by the only definition of the word.


Your argument is based on there being only one definition of "slave", and that lack of consent is part of that definition.  Fact is that there's more than one definition, and which one applies depend on the context.  Even then, I don't know that non-consent is an essential part of any of the definitions.  In a legal context, non-consent would be a big deal if someone were trying to lock me up for enslaving someone, although it's possible that consent wouldn't get me off the hook depending on the circumstances.  In a historical context, non-consent can't be part of the definition.  There is plenty of historical evidence for consensual slavery - folks selling themselves into slavery to get food, shelter, etc. - and that in some times and places, slave was a lot better gig than free peasant.  That these folks consented didn't change the fact that they were in slavery.  Here in the US we had both nonconsensual and consensual slavery. If I wanted to go from Europe to the US and didn't have the $, I could sell myself to someone for a period of time during which I was for all intents and purposes their property - their slave.  That was consensual indentured servitude then.  It would be illegal slavery today.

We're discussing slavery here in the context of kink.  In a kinky context it's a very handy label, describing a certain subset/mindset of submission.  A lot of kinky people use that label.  What is the point in defining "slave" in terms of non-consent when that definition renders the term completely useless in a kinky context, where everything we do is understood to be based on consent? 


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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:39:59 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		Contracts, consensual, non consensual,I have heard the whole argument on if a contracts is worth the time to write and slavery non-consensual does exist all over the world..Maybe you'll don't run in the circles I do or go to places I frequent, but non-consensual is alive and kicking all over the world and doing quiet well here in the us....Have any of you been to a "real' slave auction. I have and believe me when I say it ain't pretty...One place in NYC on every third month there is a large auction of both consensual and well as non-consensual,mostly Asians being sold off to pay for their passage sorta like the bond servants of old, as well whole family's being bonded for 15 to 20 years,yes they consented to do this but wouldn't you to escape oppression and to keep your family some what safe.....IN most larger city's if you take the time to dig and get well connected you can find the above...If you thing this is the rants of an ol' mad man perhaps I should take all of you on one cold Sunday THIS WINTER SMILE bounty

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:44:19 AM   
zakkan


Posts: 606
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline 		Imagine, 30, 40 years down the road someone asks the two of you:

"So, how were you able to stay together all these years?"

"Oh... I have these pictures..."

I don't think such a relationship will last very long.


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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:44:34 AM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Contracts, consensual, non consensual,I have heard the whole argument on if a contracts is worth the time to write and slavery non-consensual does exist all over the world..Maybe you'll don't run in the circles I do or go to places I frequent, but non-consensual is alive and kicking all over the world and doing quiet well here in the us....Have any of you been to a "real' slave auction. I have and believe me when I say it ain't pretty...One place in NYC on every third month there is a large auction of both consensual and well as non-consensual,mostly Asians being sold off to pay for their passage sorta like the bond servants of old, as well whole family's being bonded for 15 to 20 years,yes they consented to do this but wouldn't you to escape oppression and to keep your family some what safe.....IN most larger city's if you take the time to dig and get well connected you can find the above...If you thing this is the rants of an ol' mad man perhaps I should take all of you on one cold Sunday THIS WINTER SMILE bounty
god, thank you for this post.   When ever these issues come up I wonder if we've forgotten that there really are slaves -- as in today.  That what we do is (THANKFULLY -- sorry, didn't mean to yell) part of roleplay and fantasy and mutual needs getting met.  I'm really good with it being (far, far) less than non-consentual.  I wouldn't want to be a part of a community that practiced something like non-consentual slavery. 

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:49:24 AM   
PanthersMom


Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		the forums are very amusing this morning.  anyone know if it's a full moon yet?

PM

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:50:23 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Contracts, consensual, non consensual,I have heard the whole argument on if a contracts is worth the time to write and slavery non-consensual does exist all over the world..Maybe you'll don't run in the circles I do or go to places I frequent, but non-consensual is alive and kicking all over the world and doing quiet well here in the us....Have any of you been to a "real' slave auction. I have and believe me when I say it ain't pretty...One place in NYC on every third month there is a large auction of both consensual and well as non-consensual,mostly Asians being sold off to pay for their passage sorta like the bond servants of old, as well whole family's being bonded for 15 to 20 years,yes they consented to do this but wouldn't you to escape oppression and to keep your family some what safe.....IN most larger city's if you take the time to dig and get well connected you can find the above...If you thing this is the rants of an ol' mad man perhaps I should take all of you on one cold Sunday THIS WINTER SMILE bounty



god, thank you for this post.   When ever these issues come up I wonder if we've forgotten that there really are slaves -- as in today.  That what we do is (THANKFULLY -- sorry, didn't mean to yell) part of roleplay and fantasy and mutual needs getting met.  I'm really good with it being (far, far) less than non-consentual.  I wouldn't want to be a part of a community that practiced something like non-consentual slavery. 


As always, my pleasure....BH

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:50:26 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
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From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		Close, PM.....

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:51:28 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

the forums are very amusing this morning.  anyone know if it's a full moon yet?

PM


YES last night...........

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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 8:58:39 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		As a person with a total blackmail kink, I don't see anything wrong with it, except for the obvious fact that if the relationship is consentual, then the blackmail isn't actually real.  I analogize this to a play rape scene that some people are into.  And like with any of the rest of this stuff we do, it's borderline illegal anyway, and it carries some risk that if you get involved with a nut he/she could turn on you and cry rape, blackmail, assault (or whatever).   So, I don't see the blackmail fetish as anything worse or more risky than any of the other wild shit we engage in (as long as the person consents to your will in the relationship in the first place of course).

I don't believe in consensual non-consent either.  It's not possible, no matter how much we may romantize such a notion.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 10/12/2008 9:16:54 AM >

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