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RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 9:19:56 AM

windycitysub78

Posts: 55
Joined: 4/22/2008
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It has to be consensual in the begining, of course. ...later however, if the sub changes his/her mind, and only stays for fear of being humiliated, it is no longer consensual.

...and of course, what a terribly stupid and irresponsible idea - and both parties are at fault. As softness said, it has potential to not only hurt the sub, but also his/her loved ones.

I am extreme in what I seek from power exchange (especially the emotional/psychological aspects), but NEVER, I repeat NEVER would I let myself be hurt in r/l, nor my friends and family. I loathe anyone who is irresponsible enough to partake in what is discussed in this thread.

(in reply to QandA)

Post #: 41

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 9:24:35 AM

ShatteredSoul123

Posts: 29
Joined: 5/17/2008
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Despite what anyone thinks, the term slave is a very simple. If one is a slave (in most parts of the world) its 100% illegal. Why? Because to be a real slave (argue the term real all you wish but the dictionary defines for us what a REAL slave is!!) you have no rights, and therefore, a law is being broken.

In this lifestyle there can be NO REAL SLAVE... ONLY REAL CONSENTING SLAVERY.

The difference, the consenting slave ALWAYS has the LEGAL RIGHT to walk away.... for an owner to say otherwise, instantly makes him/her a kidnapper.

Now for those who know me, this totally does not fit into my definition of a modern day consenting slave. Rather a slave in this lifestyle (for me) is a slave because he/she has only one choice they can make.... follow their heart. The question comes down to, has the owner mastered the heart of the slave... if not she isn't a slave at all :o)

Just my take.

_____________________________

ShatteredSoul of http://www.alternativealbany.com
and http://beingadaddy.wordpress.com (not kinky)

(in reply to QandA)

Post #: 42

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 9:32:46 AM

Potentate

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Joined: 6/7/2008
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Certainly its true that a slave contract cannot be enforced in a court of law, and that from a legal standpoint its might as well be written on toilet paper. I would also like to point out that a legal contract requires and 'exchange of value" meaning both parties must derive benefit, so any contract that was one-sided would also could not be enforced. I manage subcontractors, (subs), professionally in my business, and the most common use of the contract is simply to put on paper the requirements of EACH party to the contract and to memorialize what was discussed and agreed to. Slave's in ancient times did not have contracts, because they PAID for their slaves once and were legally entitled to their service for life, (which was another good reason to keep them healthy). Subcontractors also provide services, but are paid are paid as they complete their scope of work. I've never had to take a sub to court, but on MANY occasions we've had to revisit the contract to clarify what was required of them to be compliance with the terms of their contract. So, YES contracts can have value, but no they cannot be enforced.

(in reply to QandA)

Post #: 43

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 12:55:05 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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I like coercion but don’t see it as nonconsensual. I am a realist and I even view prisoners as “choosing” to live in confinement than to die “free” like a caged animal will often do by when it stops eating.

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

(in reply to Potentate)

Post #: 44

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/12/2008 7:18:13 PM

GoddessNatasha

Posts: 11
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

so i suppose the op will take their money and belongings as well. or throw them on the street for denying a non consensual relationship.

There is no basis in my message for such a scurilous supposition. Evil may exist but it is not in my heart. I welcome your comments in helping me resolve the issue, but not your insults.

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)

Post #: 45

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 2:45:03 AM

zach7

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

like others have said.. even if they consent to the rest of the dynamic being non-consensual.. it's STILL consent.

Ok...but what if something goes terribly wrong within the relationship and they end up hating each other? The concept to me and I'm sure many other people is a turn on. While we call things "forced" such as "forced fem" or "forced bi" are they truley forced? Is it true slavery? Anyone out there being held against thier will? Is there anyone being held in in shackles 24/7 truley against thier will?...I certainly hope not. There are just too many ifs and legal concequences if the relationship goes bad.

(in reply to GreedyTop)

Post #: 46

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 3:08:01 AM

SoulPiercer

Posts: 374
Joined: 5/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessNatasha

I have posted a similar message on other boards and received some interesting replies. I have become interested in an idea put forth by Author/Domme Ingred Bellemare that the only true slave is one who consents at the outset to a non-consensual relationship sustained by his love for his Mistress and cemented by some form of Compulsion. Ingred suggests the compulsion be a set of embarrassing photos/videos of the slave which, he agrees in the beginning, would only be released as a penalty for his default on the slave commitment (contract)

Penalties for default are common in contracts but some see this as unethical while others are thrilled by the added spice of enforcement. I have advertised exclusively on CM for My n-s slave and received quite a few replies and completed Applications.

What do you think? I would love to have your view on this concept.

Goddess Natasha thanks you.

Yeah .. about that..

I'm sure Ingred's writings are rather titillating, however, trying to implement her idea can bring some big headaches you probably don't want.

I once read a book about a man who was insulted by a young woman. He had his revenge when he paid a crime syndicate to kidnap her and train her to be a sex slave. After her brutal schooling, she was turned over to him.

Well .. sounded like a great idea, so I tried it. The results? I'm out $100 large and I'm in the witness protection program because the guys who kidnapped her forgot to drill holes in the crate before they put her on that plane to Germany.

_____________________________

Do you have any idea how many bones you have left for me to break? - Batman

(in reply to GoddessNatasha)

Post #: 47

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 6:14:29 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

“Having a slave is like having an automatic dishwasher: set it up and make it do the work. It is there to serve your needs. If something is not working right take corrective action until it's fixed”

-Ingrid Bellemare

What if the Dominant needs the fixing? What if her theory is impractical or unrealistic? Or must one first accept that women are not only "supreme", but also infallible?

John

P.S. - Do they wear those cute little pope hats?

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to GoddessNatasha)

Post #: 48

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 7:00:28 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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From chapter three of "Owning and Training a Male Slave" by Ingrid Bellemare:

quote:

"Since I gave up as a professional Domme and adopted the lifestyle for real I have known very few lifestyle slaves who, when faced with the choice, did not accept the non consensual status and only one who, having agreed to it, later backtracked."

In her personal biography, Ingrid describes herself as a "professional Dominatrix" during the 1980's and '90s. I do not believe that a professional Dominatrix with a clientele of bottoms (some of whom may or may not be submissive, but are evidently not submissive to her) is the functional equivalent of a professional Domme.

True or not, Ingrid evidently does not consider this experience to be "real" (and I would agree that it is not a legitimate example of the kind of power exchange relationships she writes about in her book).

I would further note that the "supremacy" in question, by Ingrid's own admission, is consensual (not non-consensual) and that said "supremacy" is (evidently) neither universal (ie: at least a "few" did not succumb to it) nor permanent (ie: at least one "backtracked", further establishing the relationship as consensual).

quote:

"That is not to say that the slave is always happy being forced to serve in this way. He will certainly not be and why should he? That is the very essence of slavery."

No slave or submissive is "always happy" about serving. This is a gratuitous implication that the particular style of relationship dynamic employed by Ingrid is the "one true way" of slavery. Someone should really inform this eminently experienced author that the "one true way" has been thoroughly discredited.

quote:

"But if he is a true submissive the element of compulsion will be a powerful motivator in his search for true slavery and deep down his fervent desire to submit to the women he loves will consume him and the idea that he has any sort of control will disappear."

Ok, there are some real mouthfuls here. "True submissive"? Seriously, Ingrid... do you think yourself the "Pope of Rope" (apologies to Jack Rinella once again) who confers such legitimacy upon those who curry your favor (and illegitimacy upon those who do not)? You should become better informed about Jon Jacobs and his claims to be able to divine "true Dominants". Were it not for his passing, I believe you'd make great partners.

So after establishing "true submissive(s)", you further establish "true slavery" as that which appeals to you personally. How many suns and moons must revolve around you as well.

And what part does "love" play in your "true slavery"? Is it impossible for a "slave" to "truly serve" in the absence of love? Or is "love" a necessary ingredient for "supremacy"? Seriously, this engenders more questions than it answers.

quote:

"There are no risks associated with this strategy because fundamentally it is what both Domme and slave desire and all of the married Mistress/slave couples I know who have embraced this change in their relationship have reported a strengthening of the love between them."

Now this is just faulty logic at it's finest. It's like advocating swinging for all couples because the ones that you know who engage in swinging love it and think it brings them closer together. Seriously... you got a book published with this drivel?

And I can think of plenty of risks. How about the risk that this ruins an otherwise fine relationship. How about it ruins their friendships and employment if it becomes necessary to utilize the "blackmail"? How about some gullible people pay $ 19.99 for this book and actually trying to employ these concepts?

Honestly, the more I learn about Ingrid Bellemare, the less I think of her theory.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/13/2008 7:02:29 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to GoddessNatasha)

Post #: 49

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 9:26:30 AM

MasterJFrancis

Posts: 14
Joined: 7/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessNatasha

I have become interested in an idea put forth by Author/Domme Ingred Bellemare that the only true slave is one who consents at the outset to a non-consensual relationship sustained by his love for his Mistress and cemented by some form of Compulsion. Ingred suggests the compulsion be a set of embarrassing photos/videos of the slave which, he agrees in the beginning, would only be released as a penalty for his default on the slave commitment (contract)

What do you think? I would love to have your view on this concept.

Goddess Natasha thanks you.

I think this is the makings of an excellent BDSM story of the slave "forced" to do what they would do otherwise willingly. Although I prefer mental bondage Myself, if this is what floats your tiny boat in the ocean of BDSM far be it for Me to say otherwise. Enjoy and happy dominantion. Of course, should you actually follow through on this and get someone to do this and they in turn decide to turn you in to the police, you may see Me again as part of the jury finding you guilty of false inprisonment, extortion, and blackmail, not to mention assault and battery with any number of implements.... because bottom line the law reads that you get with it if it was consensual. By stating up front that it would be non-consensual you are in effect laying your head on the block and begging the executioner to slice it off... before you do... you need to service all the members of the jury pool, the police that brought you in and of course the judge (can't leave out the judge).... and for the most humilating part of it, to service the victim in the matter however and for whatever duration he desires.

Enjoy....

(in reply to GoddessNatasha)

Post #: 50

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 9:43:23 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
Status: offline

quote:

There is no basis in my message for such a scurilous supposition. Evil may exist but it is not in my heart. I welcome your comments in helping me resolve the issue, but not your insults.

you want a non consensual slave..this means you could do anything and everything including what i stated. non consensual slave = 24-7 total power exchange. and in many of those types of relationships the slave gives up everything and every right. it was not an insult but was a fact.

_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.

I am flawed.

Imperfect.

MUST SPANK!!!

SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to GoddessNatasha)

Post #: 51

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 9:55:46 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
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Did anyone wtch msn show about sex slaves in america last night?, Many russian women and euro women as well but mostly from the russian block come to america and trapped into service as hookers and dancers for years to pay for their transportation and paper work..Many are forced to work for years for free...Thats non consensual slavery at it best..bounty

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)

Post #: 52

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 10:11:05 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Did anyone wtch msn show about sex slaves in america last night?, Many russian women and euro women as well but mostly from the russian block come to america and trapped into service as hookers and dancers for years to pay for their transportation and paper work..Many are forced to work for years for free...Thats non consensual slavery at it best..bounty

they are often shown on shows like csi and law and order...russians mainly...

_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.

I am flawed.

Imperfect.

MUST SPANK!!!

SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 53

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 10:21:18 AM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Did anyone wtch msn show about sex slaves in america last night?, Many russian women and euro women as well but mostly from the russian block come to america and trapped into service as hookers and dancers for years to pay for their transportation and paper work..Many are forced to work for years for free...Thats non consensual slavery at it best..bounty

I visit East Europe regular for work. Knowing they are payed 80euro's/month for decent average job, they take everything they can.
As soon as you enter a hotel, there is alway some one offering you a girl for 70 euro's for a full night (no limits).
That is a lott of money for them.

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 54

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 10:32:56 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Did anyone watch msn show about sex slaves in America last night?, Many Russian women and euro women as well but mostly from the Russian block come to America and trapped into service as hookers and dancers for years to pay for their transportation and paper work..Many are forced to work for years for free...Thats non consensual slavery at it best..bounty

they are often shown on shows like csi and law and order...russians mainly...

Thats entertainment faery, this is real life,girls smooth talked into believing that good jobs await them in America and then they are forced into slavery, raped, beaten and their family's threaten if they don't comply, The Russian mob is alive and prospering in America...

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)

Post #: 55

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 10:41:59 AM

MAMandSlave

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/15/2008
Status: offline

I loved the idea of taking naked pictures of my slave and holding them over her head, keeping her as mine forever. Then she went and did porn....damn..... now however will I keep her.....sigh

(in reply to QandA)

Post #: 56

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 10:42:49 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

“Having a slave is like having an automatic dishwasher: set it up and make it do the work. It is there to serve your needs. If something is not working right take corrective action until it's fixed”

-Ingrid Bellemare

What if the Dominant needs the fixing?

John

... you mean like the folks in our house who, after being told 6 or 7 times not to, insist on putting plastic forks in the dishwasher that fly around and get caught in the spray-arms and melt on the heating coil???

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 57

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 10:47:02 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

Did anyone wtch msn show about sex slaves in America last night?, Many Russian women and euro women as well but mostly from the russian block come to america and trapped into service as hookers and dancers for years to pay for their transportation and paper work..Many are forced to work for years for free...Thats non consensual slavery at it best..bounty

Actually, what was really, truly wild about that is that a few of the places they showed are not far from where I live in Houston, are 'raided' every few months with meager results, reopen a week later under a new name, and have no problem being ready for customers. -- and they're not out in the boonies, either. We drive by a couple of the clubs and massage parlors at least a couple of times a week. Also it's not just (or even primarily) European/Russian women. Down here, most of the women are Filipino, Mexican or Vietnamese.

Calla Firestorm

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 58

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 11:51:00 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
Status: offline

quote:

Thats entertainment faery, this is real life,girls smooth talked into believing that good jobs await them in America and then they are forced into slavery, raped, beaten and their family's threaten if they don't comply, The Russian mob is alive and prospering in America...

entertainment yes but what you just explained is what is portrayed exactly in these shows.

even dateline had stuff about this and dateline = real.

_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.

I am flawed.

Imperfect.

MUST SPANK!!!

SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

Post #: 59

RE: Non-consensual slavery - 10/13/2008 12:15:33 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

consensual non-consent is a misnomer.

It's still consent in the end.

They agreed to it whether it be in the beginning and never having to consent again after that or for every thing done to them. It's still consensual, so to me it's a moot point really.

Ditto.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 60

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