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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 4:16:48 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

  ~snipped quote` Ya know, "the vanillas" are boring, just don't get it, don't have the depth, the love, the bond .  If only they could understand us, they'd have far deeper relationships, better communication, more trust etc etc.         
I don't really see the supremacists beliefs any differently, or nearly as vocal actually, as I see bdsmer's about their way of life, or their way of thinking.


I agree that many people who do wiitwd ignore the reality that ‘vanilla’ folk can and do have good communication, intense and satisfying relationships, and are not bored or boring in the least. 
What I have is best for me; what my best friend has with her husband is best for her.
I don’t agree, however, that supremacists in BDSM are worse or more forceful than other elitist groups. When I see the ‘we are better’ attitude here, it seems to me that it stays pretty much within the group of participants in BDSM. They argue their beliefs but “lifestyle” supremacists don’t recruit in an organized fashion; they don’t commit hate crimes, at least not in the name of BDSM.
Thanks for giving me some good points to think on!


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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 5:01:20 PM   
MmeGigs


Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave
If someone doesn't actually believe the views they're expressing, then they should say that. Few - especially around here - criticize role play. 

However, I and others here have encountered people who express supremecist views as their reality rather than role play, and those people I have no objection to criticizing in any way. 


I think you're missing something rather important here.  In a kinky context, the supremacy and all that is something that's practiced as other kinks are practiced - negotiation, consenting partners, the whole nine yards.  There are people who live this out in their day to day relationships with their partners.  Within the confines of their relationship this is the reality that shapes their everyday lives.  They separate their intimate/kinky world from the rest of the world just as other kinky folk do.  Why should they have to refer to what they do as "role play" just to make other people comfortable if that's not the way they feel about it? 

How many times have you seen a supremacist of any stripe post here about their beliefs in a "One True Way" kind of way?  I don't look at all of the posts, but I haven't seen that.  There aren't really any of those on the "Ask A Mistress" board, and one would certainly expect to see it there if this was a prevalent thing.  It may be prevalent on the Gor board - I don't know, I don't go there - but it if was, that would be okay with me.  That's a spot for Gor folks to be Gor-ish together.  They're not pushing their thing on anyone.

Here's the bottom line for me.  If I feel that other people have no right to tell me and my partner(s) how we should structure our relationship and that as long as we're informed and consenting their opinion of what we're doing is their problem - and I definitely do feel that way - I have to accept that I have no right to tell other people how to structure their relationships and that my opinion of what they're doing is my problem.  If I make it their problem, I am at best a hypocrite.


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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 5:11:34 PM   
Huntertn


Posts: 715
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		right, wrong, better, no better;all words..and words only have power if.we allow it....lighten up guys and gals whatever trips their triggers doesn't have to be mine or any one else as far as I can say.

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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 5:16:07 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave


Supremecy is quite patently a world view. If someone tells me that all men, women, blacks, whites, etc. are "superior" then they've made a statement about the world. 

 
I look at this differently.  To me it looks like they've made a statement about their own personal belief of the world.  That still only makes it their belief, not actual fact or fiction.   And even at that, I really don't think this is the kind of "supremacism" being addressed on sites like this.


quote:

Saying "I believe black people exist to serve whites", is a far-reaching statement that effects billions


If making a statement alone could affect billions, we'd all be one sentence away from being King of the World.



quote:

If someone doesn't actually believe the views they're expressing, then they should say that. Few - especially around here - criticize role play.



Why?  And more importantly, to whom?


Anyway, about roleplay....Some people need to actually adopt certain beliefs in order to make their 'role play' their own personal reality.   When I'm in submission to someone, I'm there in my head in every sense of the word.  In reality do I know on some level that I can pull myself out of that because I'm the one really in control of whether or not this continues?  Yes.  But how effective would that be in my dynamic if I were to say to my dom  "ya know, Sir, this is really all just bullshit when you get right down to it, I'm not really submissive to you, I'm just "role playing" it. 

quote:

However, I and others here have encountered people who express supremecist views as their reality rather than role play, and those people I have no objection to criticizing in any way.


I just find it hard to believe that on a site like this, where bdsm supremacists abound,  that anyone reading this thread really believes that this is about some Hitler-esque movement to wipe out a gender, rather than an expression of a kink.

To me, the whole thing just looks like another case of "my kink is ok, but yours in immoral".  Or at the very least..."my kink is ok, but yours needs to be qualified"

< Message edited by marieToo -- 10/14/2008 5:17:19 PM >

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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 7:01:22 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		For me it's just kinda hot and sexy.  I don't believe in group supremacy, but there are certainly a lot of people supreme to me in a lot of ways.  And sometimes that supremacy, capitalizing on it, stretching it out to become my full utter existence at the point is really hot and awesome.

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RE: intriguing - 10/14/2008 7:18:09 PM   
Usako


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From: NYC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: world4penelope

Womyn are the bringers and carriers of life...

Ultimately that makes us the closest thing to a god on earth. On one hand, in a practical sense, supremacy and sexism make no sense and yet... I don't find it completely unnatural for a man to stand in awe of the polar opposite creature that he is not. Why wouldn't he marvel at, honor, and respect the beautiful, brilliant, carrier of life? In this way I think that a man feeling humbled by a Womyn and wanting to serve her out of love and devotion is absolutely understandable.


What the flying fuck is a "womyn"?!?! Is that some feminist word because it's so HORRIBLE to have the world "man" in woman?! Agh...

So, what about women who can't have kids? Are they now less amazing because they can't "bring life" into the world? I'd rather someone (man or woman) want to serve me because me as a person makes them feel awe, not because I can shit out babies. If my ovaries bring more awe to them than my personality then there is an issue there.

Unless they want to start having my ovaries flog them or something.

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RE: intriguing - 10/14/2008 7:53:06 PM   
rick19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Usako

quote:

ORIGINAL: world4penelope

Womyn are the bringers and carriers of life...

Ultimately that makes us the closest thing to a god on earth. On one hand, in a practical sense, supremacy and sexism make no sense and yet... I don't find it completely unnatural for a man to stand in awe of the polar opposite creature that he is not. Why wouldn't he marvel at, honor, and respect the beautiful, brilliant, carrier of life? In this way I think that a man feeling humbled by a Womyn and wanting to serve her out of love and devotion is absolutely understandable.


What the flying fuck is a "womyn"?!?! Is that some feminist word because it's so HORRIBLE to have the world "man" in woman?! Agh...

So, what about women who can't have kids? Are they now less amazing because they can't "bring life" into the world? I'd rather someone (man or woman) want to serve me because me as a person makes them feel awe, not because I can shit out babies. If my ovaries bring more awe to them than my personality then there is an issue there.

Unless they want to start having my ovaries flog them or something.


LOL, unless she (or anyone else who has posted in this thread) was put on the earth due to immaculate conception, without men they wouldn't exist. I have to say, I like you reply.

All this talk about how men are worthless from Dommes and that all Dommes deserve automatic respect  is really starting to get old.



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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 7:58:32 PM   
marieToo


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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Thanks for giving me some good points to think on!



You're welcome.  :)

And it was your question that got my thoughts going in that direction.   This whole civilized communication thing is really opening my mind.  Wonder if that's dangerous.

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RE: Supremacy - 10/14/2008 10:10:39 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave


Supremecy is quite patently a world view. If someone tells me that all men, women, blacks, whites, etc. are "superior" then they've made a statement about the world. 

 
I look at this differently.  To me it looks like they've made a statement about their own personal belief of the world.  That still only makes it their belief, not actual fact or fiction.   And even at that, I really don't think this is the kind of "supremacism" being addressed on sites like this.


quote:

Saying "I believe black people exist to serve whites", is a far-reaching statement that effects billions


If making a statement alone could affect billions, we'd all be one sentence away from being King of the World.



quote:

If someone doesn't actually believe the views they're expressing, then they should say that. Few - especially around here - criticize role play.



Why?  And more importantly, to whom?


Anyway, about roleplay....Some people need to actually adopt certain beliefs in order to make their 'role play' their own personal reality.   When I'm in submission to someone, I'm there in my head in every sense of the word.  In reality do I know on some level that I can pull myself out of that because I'm the one really in control of whether or not this continues?  Yes.  But how effective would that be in my dynamic if I were to say to my dom  "ya know, Sir, this is really all just bullshit when you get right down to it, I'm not really submissive to you, I'm just "role playing" it. 

quote:

However, I and others here have encountered people who express supremecist views as their reality rather than role play, and those people I have no objection to criticizing in any way.


I just find it hard to believe that on a site like this, where bdsm supremacists abound,  that anyone reading this thread really believes that this is about some Hitler-esque movement to wipe out a gender, rather than an expression of a kink.

To me, the whole thing just looks like another case of "my kink is ok, but yours in immoral".  Or at the very least..."my kink is ok, but yours needs to be qualified"


I'll give this one last go around, and see if I can't condense what I'm trying to say in one last post ( and refrain from being this guy ).

Do I think BDSM racial and gender supremecists are a serious threat to society? No, but I do think supremecist beliefs bolster racist and sexism, prejudices that yes, do effect billions around the world. One person may not be an oppressor, but society is made up of individuals.

As for role play in the bedroom... well, I'm not going into people's bedrooms, interrupting their scenes and injecting a bit of reality, but I do believe keeping an idea of what is and isn't real is very important.

To use a few examples....

Rape fantasy - okay; rape reality - not okay.

Slavery fantasy - okay; slavery reality - not okay.

Role-play sexism - okay; real life sexism - not okay.

Pretending to be a concentration camp guard - okay; actually being a concentration camp guard - not okay.

Some of these are less obvious than others - and I'd be the first one to admit the inherent ambiguity of morality - but I'd say in BDSM we have as much reason as any group to keep the line between our fantasies and realities clear.

If people don't qualify that their sexism or racism is for entertainment purposes only and doesn't reflect an actual world view, I'm going to take them at their word and say yes, they are wrong.

As for my kinks, analyze and criticize away - if I can't explain myself, I've at least learned something in the process.




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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 2:32:08 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
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From: Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave

I'll give this one last go around, and see if I can't condense what I'm trying to say in one last post ( and refrain from being this guy ).



lol.  That was cute.

_____________________________

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I give good agita.









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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 3:51:38 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

Admittedly, I've only quickly read through much of this. Unfortunately, whatever points the OP is trying to make is, I believe, becoming secondary to answering every question with "Come on, now" type responses, which does nothing but inject negative attitude into a discussion that could actually have some interesting points to make. Pity that.

What I see here, is Supremacy discussed as an individual kink vs. a world view. I wonder about the in-between. I started a thread on this subject awhile back, because I was pretty disgusted with some of the supremacist views and behavior I have personally experienced. When someone's "fun, kinky view" affects you personally, you tend to have a harsher bias against those views, I suppose. When a friendship is removed from your world - one that was important to you - because said friend became the slave of a supremacist and was no longer allowed to be friends with "lowly female slavegirl," well, that's going to affect my views about supremacy a bit. And, it's no longer a view kept within the confines of a particular relationship. As for me, quite honestly, it pissed me off, and seemed shallow and rude, and the emails I received from said "supremacist" only furthered my point of view on the subject.

Sure, keep a kink within the relationship. I'm not worried about anyone trying to change the world with their kink. But when you drop it in my lap and change my personal world because of it...well my views are going to be far less tolerant on the subject. Maybe I'll just become a non-supremacist supremacist - inasmuch as supremacists believe the male specie is "less than", it's my right to believe supremacists are "less than"...isn't it? And then I can tell the actual cool, rockin' women who have supremacist views that it's just my personal kink and nothing personal (that was a sarcastic point - I have no intention of forming opinions on a general group of people like that).

Overall, you want to have whatever belief floats your boat? Go for it. You want to practice your personal views within your relationship? More power to you. You want to affect my world with your views? I'm going to have an opinion on that, which you may not like. Hopefully this explains an "opposing" point of view better than tossing "Oh come on, now" around.

~ steps off my soap box ~




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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 4:17:11 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Fast Reply to no one in particular....
 
Historically, the notion of "tolerance" within BDSM has referred to kinks... we should all be tolerant of one another's kinks.  But not surprisingly, in an era when "judgement" is (often) viewed as a "bad" thing, "tolerance" has been morphed into meaning tolerance of all things, even those that are not kink related.
 
"Supremacy" as role play?  Kink.
 
"Supremacy" as an individual (and consensual) relationship dynamic?  Kink.
 
"Supremacy" as non-consensual prejudice and discrimination?  Not a Kink.
 
All things are not kinks, and all things are not deserving of tolerance.  They're not even deserving of common courtesy, in my view.  In fact, it's not enough to think silently, to yourself, that they're wrong... because eventually they'll be coming for you.
 
John


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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 4:45:24 AM   
JustDarkness


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Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

"tolerance" has been morphed into meaning tolerance of all things, even those that are not kink related.


that is damn refreshing to hear on here
peopel have excuses for all bad things..or call it suddenly kink

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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 7:24:41 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		In my own warped twisted mind it goes something kinda like this. There are many MANY things that I am totally not tollerant of. A few of those things, other regular posters on this site, not only are tollerant of, but have as a part of their life. The key is  that it is THEIR life, not mine.

Regardless of whether I like/tollerate/approve or what-the-fuck-ever, is irrelevant to them. Why on earth would I create a thread saying that I think anyone that gets off on puking on/being puked on (just a bizzare example) is a sick twisted fuck? I mean really, they are not doing it in my livingroom. They are not doing it to or with, anyone I give a shit about. So, why the hell would I create a rant spewing forth all sorts of venom about how wrong I think it is?

The only real reason I can imagine is that I would have some personal agenda to attempt to hurt or degrade someone that enjoys puke. I would like to think I have not only better things to do with my time, but that I am a better human being than that.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 7:29:18 AM   
MsAuthoritarian


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Fast Reply to no one in particular....
 
Historically, the notion of "tolerance" within BDSM has referred to kinks... we should all be tolerant of one another's kinks.  But not surprisingly, in an era when "judgement" is (often) viewed as a "bad" thing, "tolerance" has been morphed into meaning tolerance of all things, even those that are not kink related.
 
"Supremacy" as role play?  Kink.
 
"Supremacy" as an individual (and consensual) relationship dynamic?  Kink.
 
"Supremacy" as non-consensual prejudice and discrimination?  Not a Kink.
 
All things are not kinks, and all things are not deserving of tolerance.  They're not even deserving of common courtesy, in my view.  In fact, it's not enough to think silently, to yourself, that they're wrong... because eventually they'll be coming for you.
 
John



John,
Thank you for posting this as it states clearly EXACTLY what I think about supremacy, tolerance and judgement as well. Very well put!!
 
Thanks Again,
~Ms

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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 8:17:42 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In my own warped twisted mind it goes something kinda like this. There are many MANY things that I am totally not tollerant of. A few of those things, other regular posters on this site, not only are tollerant of, but have as a part of their life. The key is  that it is THEIR life, not mine.


So, in other words, you wish to live in a society with other humans. Further, you wish that those other humans would interfere in your life when YOU want them to and not otherwise. Ideally, they should all have exactly the same moral and ethical standards as you so that they would perceive "threat" identically to you. You see nothing wrong with this? What if I don't want to be your sock puppet?

I'm going to ask you to consider the implications of "risk aware consensual kink" for someone who participates in some sort of health-care system.... a system which is designed specifically to spread risk.


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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 9:10:23 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Even though you've taken this off topic..........I will reply.

I didn't ask you to be my anything, least of all my sock puppet. You don't like my life, values or some other such thing, stay the hell outta my life. Simple really.

I am not in law enforcement, nor am I in any other sort of profession that causes your's, or any other stranger's, business, to be my business.

As far as humans in "my society"..........there is a reason I live in rural Iowa and, much of the time, prefer the company of 4-legged creatures over that of most humans.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/15/2008 9:11:40 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 9:57:01 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In my own warped twisted mind it goes something kinda like this. There are many MANY things that I am totally not tollerant of. A few of those things, other regular posters on this site, not only are tollerant of, but have as a part of their life. The key is  that it is THEIR life, not mine.




I've evolved to this basic attitude myself. 

I can remember a thread, probably close to 2 years ago, when I called financial slavery "trash", based upon my own beliefs about it,  and someone argued that they saw it as a devoted form of service.  And I can see how in some circumstances it would be just that, but I still wouldn't engage in it because to me it's not prudent. I'm certainly not without judgements of my own, which is what keeps me from engaging in certain things in particular.  But I've become tolerant and more open-minded to the idea that not everyone is going to see something as unhealthy, or bad, or wrong,  just because I do.

A general comment about the thread:

I don't get the impression that anyone is trying to change anyone else's views.  I personally happen to think that different views make for productive debate, debate which wouldn't be possible if everyone felt the same way.  Sometimes my mind is opened up about something that I hadn't considered before, sometimes I might open up someone else's mind.

I think it's all good.

_____________________________

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I give good agita.









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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 10:42:56 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		You used the word "prudent"!!! Now I have that SNL skit rolling through my head!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Supremacy - 10/15/2008 4:44:11 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

I don't get the impression that anyone is trying to change anyone else's views. I personally happen to think that different views make for productive debate, debate which wouldn't be possible if everyone felt the same way. Sometimes my mind is opened up about something that I hadn't considered before, sometimes I might open up someone else's mind.


I agree that different points of view make for a good and often times productive debate.  The exception that I took to the OP had nothing to do with her view of a kink, but the way that she condemned anyone who engaged in that kink.  A discussion of ideas was not really possible at that point, as anyone who would have come out to say "I do it and I like it" may have stayed away because of the abuse hurled at them before they had any opportunity to state their point of view.

I see the OP as being argumentative and hurtful to anyone that isn't in agreement with her way of thinking.  Anyone questioning her motives in posting such a hatefilled and meanspirited message is pooh-poohed with "Oh come on now" as if she is above questioning and no one else could be sincere in their curiosity.  It's hard to have a discussion when one party won't explain their motive and intent to the conversation.

I don't see any evidence that she wanted any opposing ideas, unless it was bait for someone who obviously didn't show up. 

As far as this discussion has evolved, we seem to be at the point of tolerance and acceptance of others and their kinks. 

I agree that there are kinks that are NOT OK.  Any action done without the consent of the person it's being done to or involving those unable to give consent is where I draw the line.  Beyond that, I don't care what anyone chooses to do in their own life.  I may not choose to engage, watch, listen to, or read about it, but that doesn't mean that I don't accept them or encourage their right to do just as they please.

As far as supremacy in the sense of a world view.  The people who believe such have just as much right to believe it as I have the right not to.  When someone attempts to infringe on another's rights to believe as they choose, is when there will be a problem.

I live 10 miles from a HUGE monument to the founder of the KKK.  Yep, disgusting, it's right next to the interstate and you can't miss it, the damn thing is lit up like a Christmas tree at night.  It's on private property.  It is every bit the right of the property owner to have, maintain, and light this monument.  I don't like it, other than the man looks completely deranged and that makes me laugh. But the right to a belief is the right to believe whatever the hell you want, and to maintain my own freedom, I will defend the rights of others to believe something I abhore.  Picking what is "right" and "wrong" for others is a slippery slope, and one I'd rather not be on.






_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


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