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RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 2:45:13 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

Keep in mind too, someone may suggest prompt reply to emails, as a way of testing a sub... how honest are they about serving? submitting? Is it just a game? Setting little tasks like this can be incredibly helpful in seperating the chaff from the hay so to speak. For example, for no ryhmye or reason, I'll message a sub and ask that he finds out how many litres of water it would take to fill 74.32 cubic metres... how readily he completes this task, and without questioning why I requested such a task, and just does it, is a fairly good indication this boy is wanting to please, wanting to be trained, wanting to serve, wanting to win my favour and is willing to trust my judgement and find out the information I request. The reason why I wanted the info is mute, the fact he willingly found it is the clincher.

What is the point of testing when they aren't yours to begin with?
What happened to communication?
I understand the point about the equality not being their when the lines have been drawn, but when it is general first exchanges - 'testing in such a period, to me, shows nothing more than someone playing a game. Like I say, it's my personal way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff - but someone who behaves in such a way when I am not in any service to that person whatsoever just fails at the first hurdle.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 41

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 2:46:11 PM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80

So what do you do when your local groups aren't much to speak of?

Start a new one?

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 42

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 3:04:09 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

IMO, what DS meant is no adult can inspire a growth in another adult; people need to mature on their own. Yes, reading and other resources are ways for a person to learn, and may inspire a new behavior -- but the person learns and grows from the experience, not the reading.

Noah, i do not understand Your boast. If You are in a fulffilling D/s or M/s relationship, why are You searching? Or were You just relating some past experience?

Sorry to be nosey, LMAO.

candystripper

Well candystripper, for me reading is an experience; one of the many kinds of experience I learn from. As an experiment, go read any book by Victor Frankl or Hannah Arendt or Primo Levy. Then stop right there and ask yourself whether you've already learned something; whether you've already been enlarged by the experience of this author's teaching--or whether instead you have to go out and engage in some new behavior first.

I can't subscribe to your theory about inspiration and growth, either. As an adult I have been inspired to growth in various important ways by other adults ... oh wait. What you you said was: "no adult can inspire a growth in another adult" That's different, isn't it.

Well setting the notion of pregnancy aside I'm sure I've inspired a growth of headaches in certain people, if not brain tumors. And I'll bet you'd like to think you've inspired certain temporary growths yourself. (Where's that winky smiley thing?)

But come on, you've never heard of an adult finding important inspiration to growth in the teachings of another adult? The subject here is teaching after all. I only mentioned books as one avenue for teaching.

Nietsche? Kierkegaard? Mandela? Coaches? Professors? Drill Instructors? Tony Robbins? The freaky Amway guy? How about this Buddha fella some of these folks refer to some time? I think some people think they've been inspired by his teachings. You've scout's honor never heard of any adult finding inspiration to growth in the teachings of another?

I really think that we must be using certain of our words differently and that if we could speak in the same terms we'd probably agree pretty closely.

I think we've all three spoken in favor of experiential learning. The Other Poster, for instance, struck me as saying that experiential learning is great, except when the experience is that of one adult being taught by another--something which should be left behind in childhood.

As for my searching, candystripper, I'm searching for lots of things but maybe not in the sense you seem to have intended. Why would being in a fulfilling relationship of any flavor extinguish the search for new ideas and insights; new acquaintances and friendships and opportunities and challenges and fun? I suppose that might happen to some people but it sounds very small and sad to me.

So I accept your apology. And the silliness of my boast was kind of an in-joke. I hope it wasn't too offensive and apologize myself if it was.

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 43

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 3:15:53 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80

I first started thinking about this when I was emailing back and forth with a person that I met at a munch. It began when he said that he expected me to reply promptly to emails, but he may not be able to reply as promptly because he was busy, life issues, etc. My first thought then was "What, and you don't think I'm busy?"
Then quite a few emails later, with another issue entirely, he said:

It really is in the delivery it would seem. What you express is not a lot different in what occurred between kyra and me. However, I would say that my approach was significantly different and not so presumptuous. When kyra and I first began to exchange emails I did indicate that I do not have a lot of time to respond to emails every day but do read them everyday. I read fast, write slow lol. I also expressed the enjoyment of receiving her emails and reading them every day. I did not require her to send them, but I did make her aware of something that pleased me. Kyra took it upon herself to write to me every day, I would sometimes respond that day sometimes it would be a day or two but I did read them every day. In time I expressed how I enjoy reading her emails of the day before I went to bed and noted to her once it was a please to wake up once to read an email that was waiting for me. Interestingly enough, without establishing the expectation and/or requirement, kyra was sending me a email each morning and each evening. I would be responding maybe once every couple days or so.

Now when I read your perspective of his approach, I am immediately taken back by the presumptuous nature of the person. I find it very inappropriate of a Dominant to start putting expectations on to someone that is not collared to him. I am not surprised however. Many individuals seek to establish extrinsic motivational behaviors upon their submissives or those they are interested in. Essentially, I expect you to do this to please me. My approach, especially with one that I am courting, is more of intrinsic motivational approach. Essentially, “I enjoy this!” and then I watch to see if the submissive is internally motivated to please me. This intrinsic motivation is very powerful since it requires nothing from myself and shows the submissive internal desires to bring me pleasure by fulfilling those things that please me. This slow and steady progression of more and more intrinsically motivating behaviors in a desire to give me pleasure binds the submissive to the Dominant. It is also a reflect of her compatibility to me. Now it is a balance, not all the behaviors will be intrinsically motivated some will be of the extrinsic variety, but that is another story.

quote:

What rules apply to the sub do not necessarily apply to the Dom, and if you don't like it or want to argue about it, are you "submissive"?

mmmmmmmm I generally find this statement to be inflammatory and not productive to any meaningful discussion. It also continues to give me a bad taste in my mouth with regards to this person. I believe it is the universally implications that his statement conveys to me that I just can't appreciate. In my opinion, questioning your submissive nature in this manner is highly inappropriate and just wrong! But, I do believe like so many, that what he questions is not so much your submissive but your compatibility to him. However, he conveys his issue as a passive aggressive attack that is not going to result into anything productive. I would of restated his statement as such:

"My rules that apply to my sub/slave do not necessarily apply to myself, and if you don't like ti or want to argue about it, then I have to question if we are Compatible!

Now I would continue to write on the rest of your post. But I don't think I could add anything that hasn't already been stated other than. It is not an issue of Double Standard. It is a question of Compatibility. If you don't like the standards that a particular Dominant establishes just move on. It doesn't make them less or better. Just not compatible to you!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 44

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 3:22:23 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

The teacher analogy, expressed here, seems to hold water.

Using that thought, it would seem clear that you can't learn to be prompt from someone that is habitually late, any more than you could learn calculus from someone that can't do basic math. Even if you learn promptness under their supposed "care", you are probably just learning it on your own, at their behest. Perhaps they are a life coach or something like that.

I wonder what the double standard discussion is all about, really. If two parties agree to rules, or even who will make the rules, going in ... is there really a double standard at that point?

Besides, why even worry about it ... when it's much more fun to agree to the rules, then promptly break them. That's what rules are for after all.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 45

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 3:27:38 PM

nephandi

Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

i have not read the entire tread, but i have the same problem, many Dom`s expect you to drop everything and live in front of the computer to talk whit them, whjile they dont have to do the same themself.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 46

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 4:26:23 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
is there really a double standard at that point?

LOL that's exactly what my mistress told me when I asked her if she thought the concept of "fairness" applied to slavery.

In a very real way, it ceases to become a concept of merit.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 47

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 4:52:09 PM

Wolf1020

Posts: 447
Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline

quote:

LOL that's exactly what my mistress told me when I asked her if she thought the concept of "fairness" applied to slavery.

Fairness is relative and open to interpretation

_____________________________

"The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night."~ Otto von Bismarck

"Fish and visitors smell in three days"~Benjamin Franklin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 48

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 5:35:30 PM

MHOO314

Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

IMHO, No it should to some extent be equal---responses, communications, expectations, desires, needs, fears, wants, hopes---

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 49

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 5:40:12 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I thing your best bet is really just to start going to the local groups near you and get a group of real life friends and support so you can just see how things work.

So what do you do when your local groups aren't much to speak of?

May I ask what you mean by this?

I mean, what are you expecting from a munch?

I just expect to eat out and meet some kinky folks.

You could also try to start another munch or a new munch -- they all had to start with someone, right?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 50

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 6:46:16 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

I can say that there is a distinct set of standards for toy and I that speak to our respective expectations of the the other. I expect respectful obedience. toy expects that I manage our relationship in such a way that she is able to serve with honor and attain fulfillment. Our expectations and standards are complimentary but radically different in specifics. This is not problematic for us as we understand that we are not equals but rather of equitable value within the dynamic.
While I show toy a great deal of respect, the way in which that respect manifests is very different than the way her respect for me is manifested. Her respect for me is overt, inherent in the way she approaches me, both verbally and physically. My respect for her is manifested more discreetly, in the gentleness with which I treat her when she fails, through no fault of her own, to complete a task and feels she has disappointed me. Because she respects me, I am "Sir" or "Master". Because I respect her, I will stop what I'm doing and listen to her complain about something neither of us can control, offering what comfort I can.
I understand the complaint in the OP about the perception of a double standard but I believe that, as been stated elsewhere, the issue is more one of incompatability. Sometimes the way someone expresses himself is simply not attractive to the listener. I have overlooked submissives because the way they presented themselves was a turn-off. Those who can't make themselves understood in an attractive way, especially within a text-based medium, will always be at a disadvantage. Conversely, as has also been pointed out, it's entirely possible that this dominant's way of expressing himself might be very attractive to the type of submissive he's looking for.
Online dating is a numbers game. You disqualify the inappropriate and move on to the next prospect. There's really not much point in wasting energy on someone who just doesn't do it for you.
Timothy

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 51

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 7:57:29 PM

fldrkhorse

Posts: 158
Joined: 11/5/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: fldrkhorse
However if the parent says I'll pick you up at 9pm and doesn't arrive till 9:15, there are no consequences.
There's ALWAYS consequences. No the child isn't going to punish the parent- but now the parent maybe has lost a bit of trust that they will be on time. The child has lost a good example of sticking to one's agreements and being mindful of time and won't consider it as important the next time.

That's just one possibility- perhaps there was a huge accident and it was just something that happened. In that case, it's doubtful the child would have been punished for being late (if there was some accident that prevented the child from getting there on time).

But there's ALWAYS consequences.

On that, I wholeheartedly agree.

I could not disagree more.

Respectfully,

_____________________________

I'm not where I need to be, but I'm better than I was yesterday.

Namaste, I honor the divine in you

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 52

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 11:20:29 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

What is the point of testing when they aren't yours to begin with?
What happened to communication?
I understand the point about the equality not being their when the lines have been drawn, but when it is general first exchanges - 'testing in such a period, to me, shows nothing more than someone playing a game. Like I say, it's my personal way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff - but someone who behaves in such a way when I am not in any service to that person whatsoever just fails at the first hurdle.

Peace and Love

Blessings

darkangel

Yes, i agree. This artifical behavior at the beginning of a relationship just shows the Dom/Master/Domme is manipulative. This is a time for honest, open communication, so the parties can determine whether to become friends; try to go the distance; or forego any relationship at all. i was recently rebuffed by a Dom for being a member of the Republican Party; He was not interested in my own political views and any issues i had with the Democratic Party...He simply could not have someone in His life who was affiliated with Republicans.

We may all think that Dom was a bit rigid in His thinking, but it matters not: He obtained the information by clear, open, honest communication. i would never tolerate such "commands" from a Man i just met. It would seem to me, amoung other things, that He had no grasp of how D/s actually works.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/10/2005 11:22:28 AM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 53

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 11:27:43 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

many Dom`s expect you to drop everything and live in front of the computer to talk whit them, whjile they dont have to do the same themself.

Hmm, maybe I am talking to the wrong ones? I have yet to come across these Dom's that expect such behavior. Now, maybe it's because everyone that I talk to knows up front that I have a job, I have obligations, I have a life, etc.....But also, when I find one that I enjoy conversing with, and he expresses his pleasure in having me write him often, I do so...not because it was asked or demanded of me, but because I get pleasure out of knowing that I brightened someone's day up, if only in a small way.

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 54

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 11:32:02 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

As for my searching, candystripper, I'm searching for lots of things but maybe not in the sense you seem to have intended. Why would being in a fulfilling relationship of any flavor extinguish the search for new ideas and insights; new acquaintances and friendships and opportunities and challenges and fun? I suppose that might happen to some people but it sounds very small and sad to me.

Noah

O, f**k me for dashing off rebuttals without thinking. Of course, very little in life can be spoken of in absolutes. i cannot even say "You will always be subject to gravity" for You may take up scuba divibg or buy a ticket to the 1st commercial flight to the Moon. So, allow me to apologise.

What i meant to say is that reading -- however inspiring -- cannot be said to have changed a person's life experience. "Life experience" by its nature comes from interacting with othet people; with the world at large, etc., and it explains why older people generally have a bedrock of "experience" that allows them to make better choices than young people, who have only "theories". At some point in a person's life, they build enough "experience" to better hone their instincts; i think sometime in their 30's. That's been my observation, anyway.

candystripper

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 55

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 11:35:15 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Now when I read your perspective of his approach, I am immediately taken back by the presumptuous nature of the person. I find it very inappropriate of a Dominant to start putting expectations on to someone that is not collared to him. I am not surprised however. Many individuals seek to establish extrinsic motivational behaviors upon their submissives or those they are interested in. Essentially, I expect you to do this to please me. My approach, especially with one that I am courting, is more of intrinsic motivational approach. Essentially, “I enjoy this!” and then I watch to see if the submissive is internally motivated to please me. This intrinsic motivation is very powerful since it requires nothing from myself and shows the submissive internal desires to bring me pleasure by fulfilling those things that please me. This slow and steady progression of more and more intrinsically motivating behaviors in a desire to give me pleasure binds the submissive to the Dominant. It is also a reflect of her compatibility to me. Now it is a balance, not all the behaviors will be intrinsically motivated some will be of the extrinsic variety, but that is another story.

KoM

The gentleman speaks a truth, at least to me. TY, Sir.

candystripper

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 56

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 11:38:53 AM

fldrkhorse

Posts: 158
Joined: 11/5/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Forgive my observation but reading your posts, they do come across to the reader as angry and aggressive.

_____________________________

I'm not where I need to be, but I'm better than I was yesterday.

Namaste, I honor the divine in you

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 57

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 11:39:19 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I could not disagree more.

Respectfully,

fldrkhorse

i was a terrible discipliarian as my kid was growing up. i remember once, after grounding her, i took her to the mall for spending spree because she was sad. i am just fortunate i have a great kid; i certainly did not become a great parent.

candystripper

(in reply to fldrkhorse)

Post #: 58

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 12:24:50 PM

MizSuz

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80

SHOULD there be a double standard?

Absofuckinlutely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80

Is it fair or right for a Dom to expect more from their sub than they expect from themselves?

Who cares? Either you're a match or you're not. The end.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 59

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/10/2005 3:06:57 PM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The teacher analogy, expressed here, seems to hold water.

Using that thought, it would seem clear that you can't learn to be prompt from someone that is habitually late, any more than you could learn calculus from someone that can't do basic math.

I have to disagree with some of this. Coaches for Olympic athletes rarely can set the records themselves. The person who first added 2+2 had no teacher. The first Top that made a bottom kneel had no mentor. Many students excel their teachers. It happens all the time. Or we would not have all the advances we do.

Also you can learn from by negative example. If you see someone doing a thing you dislike, for example always being late, you can teach yourself to be on time. Seeing someone’s bad habits and learning from it is a very valid way to learn.

You can learn by reading, by watching someone else or by doing. Some people learn by rote, others by kinetics and others by seemingly osmosis. LOL. There is no real hard and fast one-way to learn. The best thing to do is learn what works best for you and work with it.

I recommend the grocery shop analogy. When you go to the grocery store, you do not buy every product on the shelf. You pick and choose what you need for your tastes. Not everything in each book you read will make sense to you. But if you get one new idea or technique from each book, seminar or thread, think how much you will learn.
Tony

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 60

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