RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me'

RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:27:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity 1. Newspapers often run Reuters and / or AP Stories, ken. Didn't you know that? Or are you disputing the undeniable fact that Obama knocked on Joe the plumber's door in the first place? Obama knocked on the guy's door? Really? Looked more like a rope line to me. quote: 2. I provided a link to the video of Obama making that pledge. How can you possibly watch *video* like that and then claim it didn't happen? Sam early on claimed the tax cut woudl hurt him by preventing him buying the plumbing business. quote: 3. Obama cannot cut income taxes for 95% of the people (as he claims) because up to 40% don't pay income taxes at all, therefore he is going to be giving away other people's money in exchange for votes. So clearly, the 5% who he's going to be raising taxes on will be paying for Obama's Marxist bribes-for-votes program! That's stealing, and it's wrong. I used to have friends who did that kind of shit when I was growing up, you know, steal things and offer me some. But it didn't take me long to find out that I couldn't trust them with my shit when I wasn't looking! This is a non sequitur. Sam is being investigated because that is what happens when you get into the spotlight. A journalist is ethically required to verifty the facts they report so when they started writing stories about Sam they of course made sure he actually was a plumber. Once the fact that he wasn't was discovered it became open season to actually tell the true story. So you're still 3 for 3.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:29:10 PM)
In your own mind. You've got your facts all screwed up. quote: So you're still 3 for 3.

Musicmystery -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:31:30 PM)
But Musicmystery does know when he's wasting his time "debating" with an idiot who's just going to endlessly respond with new attacks instead of addressing points. Over to you, Ken, as long as you've the stomach for it. Bless your heart.

LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:33:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity What if someone who isn't quite as well off as you are hires someone to put a gun to your head and demand some of your belongings. It's only fair, right? You have more, so that makes it okay. That's what you're arguing! The federal government taking bribe money is no different! They use the threat of force and then actual force if anyone fails to comply, it is absolutely no different. Some taxes have to be raised for necessities, sure. But what Obama is promising is flat out thievery. I dont follow this argument sorry By your own statistics (quoted in my post 175) the government is already holding a gun to the heads of the wealthy (and not so wealthy), to pay for necessities. The wealthiest 10% are paying 70% of income taxes as is now, according to your own stats. How is this not the robbery of which you accuse Obama, happening right now? E

giveeverything -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:36:23 PM)
Okay, I've been following this thread (kind of like watching a train wreck, I can't turn away). A few questions in general (okay, they're really retorical questions aimed at Sanity, who I think lives in La La Land, Idaho): 1) Do you really know what a socialist system looks like? I mean come on, nothing that is presented by any democrate even resembles socialism, let alone Marxism. The continuation of that particular talking point/propaganda only shows how little you know about theory. 2) Obama is neither satan nor god. The hyperbole about who he is and how everything will be ruined under him (but really, what more can be ruined than is ruined at the moment) just shows how effective the spin machine is. And believe me I'd love to belive he rides a magical unicorn and will save us from ourselves. Sadly, he's another candadit with a plan (and I might say, a breath of fresh air). I got to say the level of retoric is mind boggling.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:37:54 PM)
Paying for highways is one thing. What Obama told this Joe the plumber guy, that he intends to "spread the wealth around" is another thing altogether. Promising to hand people cash, basically. In exchange for votes... That's just wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity What if someone who isn't quite as well off as you are hires someone to put a gun to your head and demand some of your belongings. It's only fair, right? You have more, so that makes it okay. That's what you're arguing! The federal government taking bribe money is no different! They use the threat of force and then actual force if anyone fails to comply, it is absolutely no different. Some taxes have to be raised for necessities, sure. But what Obama is promising is flat out thievery. I dont follow this argument sorry By your own statistics (quoted in my post 175) the government is already holding a gun to the heads of the wealthy (and not so wealthy), to pay for necessities. The wealthiest 10% are paying 70% of income taxes as is now, according to your own stats. How is this not the robbery of which you accuse Obama, happening right now? E

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:41:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery But Musicmystery does know when he's wasting his time "debating" with an idiot who's just going to endlessly respond with new attacks instead of addressing points. Over to you, Ken, as long as you've the stomach for it. Bless your heart. The only one who fits that description would be you, my friend.

LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:43:11 PM)
What I understand by "spreading the wealth around" clearly differs a great deal from what you understand. The figures on who pays what proportion of income taxes (the ones I posted in number 175), show clearly that the US is split quite monumentally between rich and poor. What I understand by "spreading the wealth around" is adapting the tax system (in this context) to try to close that gap. This is a good idea for many reasons, but at the least its a better idea than keeping 50% of your population poor whilst keeping 10% very wealthy indeed, for those many reasons. Especially in a consumer economy where credit just dried up. E

NumberSix -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:44:22 PM)
FAST and GENERAL REPLY. OK, I fuckin' KNEW it!!!! Hypotheses non fingo. Fuckin' period... The guy has a tax lien against him which means that he isn't paying George Bushes tax rate which is purty much the nucular (is that how you would pronounce it incorrectly?) policy of McCains today, so we needn't consider whether he would rail against higher taxes imposed by the devil Obama. (he has several other judgements against him). 'I'm gonna buy a business that does 250---270-280 a year (no he's not, he ain't got aholt of the books yet). Turns out the guy ain't got a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.... And even if he bought this business that does 280 a year, what you want to use for a multiple? 6? ok 1.8 to round it off.... his takehome after current corporate and individual taxes, healthcare costs, depreciation, materiel, (according to some) usurous labor costs, the cost to hire a Master Plumber to run the fuckin' shitslinging license, and the assumed fuckin' he's gonna take from the taxation of the Democrats.............turns out........ Jesus, come up with REAL examples...Not this just pretend horseshit. 6

LovingNcruelMs -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:45:43 PM)
Since there are 9 pages of replies I am not sure if anyone has already pointed this out but..........ONLY people who EARN an income have to pay income taxes. also unless everyone has missed it, there are so MANY LOOP HOLES in the tax code that most of that 5% really don't pay the tax rate they should be paying. ( Just ask Warren Buffet) note to the person who said "I don't know how but I always got a full tax refund", that is because like with the rich (BUT TO A MUCH SMALLER DEGREE) anyone that works has deductions they can make on their returns which make it possible to end up paying $0 taxes at the end of the year. as for Joe the plumber, if he did start his new buisness next year he can look forward to a $3,000 tax credit per new employee he hires, and as anyone who owns a business knows can deduct the cost of his set up loan, the cost of building or updating his office space, his cellphone, his tools, his mileage any research material, any classes he needs to take or licensing fees, and he will also gets a ton of other credits from his state and city as a new business owner. This usually means that unless you have a really horrid accountant, you should end up paying no taxes after all your deductions and cost are figured in. And if you have a really good accountant he will get you a refund of some kind, since no one ever shows a profit on their books for the first few years. Lastly I know the rabid republican AMERICANS I put it in capitals because they are the ones who sing the star spangle banner at the drop of a hat, feel the need to chant USA, USA, USA at most rallies (which) hints that only they are true americans, but their guy (Bush) ran up their credit card bill and it is now time to pay it, or would you rather turn the country over to the Chineses and the Arabs who are the one we got our credit from. There is no other way but to raise taxes to make bigger payments to our creditors to get out of debt. ~Mistress Angeoline~

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:49:27 PM)
I think Obama might have a real likable side to him, a side that we saw a part of on the roast last night. I don't hate Obama or think he's a monster, I just know that he's wrong on a whole lot of things, especially on raising taxes during hard times. Sure, he's just promising to do it to the "evil rich" but that shows us a mindset that thinks that government is the answer to whatever ails us, when the fact of the matter is that too much government is ruinous in so many ways. The other major problem I have with Obama is his energy plan. America needs energy and I believe that Obama is so serious about cutting "greenhouse emissions" that he is going to choke off our energy supply to the point that last summer's gas prices will seem like a picnic in the park compared to what may be in store under any future Obama presidency. Put the two together, his mismanaging the economy and him choking off our energy supplies and we are going to be in a world of hurt by the time we get the opportunity to vote him back out of office. He's Jimmy Carter all over again, only this time times ten. I know I'll be okay, but I'd sure hate to see the country go through that unnecessarily. quote: 2) Obama is neither satan nor god. The hyperbole about who he is and how everything will be ruined under him (but really, what more can be ruined than is ruined at the moment) just shows how effective the spin machine is.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:52:22 PM)
So, someone who is a heroine addict and holds up corner grocery stores for a living deserves to be at least as wealthy as, say, the guy who studied and worked hard all his life and earned millions? And you believe that the strong arm of the government had ought to make it just so? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen What I understand by "spreading the wealth around" clearly differs a great deal from what you understand. The figures on who pays what proportion of income taxes (the ones I posted in number 175), show clearly that the US is split quite monumentally between rich and poor. What I understand by "spreading the wealth around" is adapting the tax system (in this context) to try to close that gap. This is a good idea for many reasons, but at the least its a better idea than keeping 50% of your population poor whilst keeping 10% very wealthy indeed, for those many reasons. Especially in a consumer economy where credit just dried up. E

giveeverything -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:57:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So, someone who is a heroine addict and holds up corner grocery stores for a living deserves to be at least as wealthy as, say, the guy who studied and worked hard all his life and earned millions? once again pure hyperbole with absolutely no basis in reality. I mean do you get that you are spinning a line of propaganda or do you really just believe all this?

NumberSix -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:58:12 PM)
Yanno, Sanity----that old tired argument has been forwarded so many times it certainly must be 'The Whore of Babylon' of bible fame. So, look...There is a great and unwashed underground economy. This argument you would frame would exclude the many outright criminal enterprises that make over 250K a year as well as the 'welfare patient'. It would also declude many folks that make millions legally and throw them up for taxes and still keep a few mill in offshore accounts away from taxes. C'mon, let's all talk out of both sides of our mouths here. 6

giveeverything -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 4:01:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Sure, he's just promising to do it to the "evil rich" but that shows us a mindset that thinks that government is the answer to whatever ails us, when did he ever call anybody the evil rich? I think this is YOUR issue not Obama's or the democrats.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 4:02:21 PM)
LE said close the gap - but the gap is there for a reason. Why work if the government is going to just give everything to you... following that line of reason, eventually no one will work and we'll all get everything we need from the magic Obama cabinet in the White House, I suppose. Why work, if the government is just going to take it away from you. Or at least, why stay in the United States? Why make or keep wealth here. quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverything quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So, someone who is a heroine addict and holds up corner grocery stores for a living deserves to be at least as wealthy as, say, the guy who studied and worked hard all his life and earned millions? once again pure hyperbole with absolutely no basis in reality. I mean do you get that you are spinning a line of propaganda or do you really just believe all this?

slvemike4u -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 4:03:14 PM)
You know one falsehood sanity keeps getting away with.....the 95% .....Obama's plan gives a tax cut to 95% of those that pay taxes now.Patenly excluding the heroin addict who holds up the corner grocery store....Talk about distortion and misdirection,Sanity you need a right wing talk show slot....you obviously have too much time on your hands,spent it would appear parroting right wing talk show hosts....figure out a way to get paid for it guy....maybe than you can relieve some of the rest of us of our tax burden....

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 4:03:33 PM)
If they're good people, then why rob them. quote: ORIGINAL: giveeverythingwhen did he ever call anybody the evil rich? I think this is YOUR issue not Obama's or the democrats.

giveeverything -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 4:04:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity LE said close the gap - but the gap is there for a reason. Why work if the government is going to just give everything to you... following that line of reason, eventually no one will work and we'll all get everything we need from the magic Obama cabinet in the White House, I suppose. Why work, if the government is just going to take it away from you. Or at least, why stay in the United States? Why make or keep wealth here. Well, I'll say it again. I think you have no working knowledge of socialism or marxism if you think any plan presented reprsents either of those ideas. And another point -- at NO time in history have the CEOs and such of companies made so much more money than the salary of their average employee. There are so many subtext to what is happening in the economy that your propaganda has not and cannot address.

LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 4:05:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity So, someone who is a heroine addict and holds up corner grocery stores for a living deserves to be at least as wealthy as, say, the guy who studied and worked hard all his life and earned millions? And you believe that the strong arm of the government had ought to make it just so? I believe anyone who is driven to crime by their desire for the likes of Lara Croft should get all the help they need. Oh, sorry? Was your post not meant as a joke too? E

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