RE: Helping negative people (Full Version)

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suhlut -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:23:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: girlivy

FR~
Tough love works wonders.  May I suggest that first a list is compllied of words she is not permitted to use?  Words that have a negative connotation, and make sure the punishment is consistant when she does. Counseling  may be a good thing, but unless the person wants help, all efforts are futile. 
If she wants to beat herself up, then hand her a whip/belt/paddle etc... and have Her do it in front of you.  Bottom line is shes an adult, and has issues, which i commend you for doing your best to help her. May you be blessed with strength.
Cheers!


I can't imagine I am alone in beliving this would probably be as destructive as could be.  I am sure it would work for someone but as general advice, not just no but hell no.  Teaching her to not talk down is fine but it needs to be done slowly and with love and acceptance, not punishment.


And this too.. i agree with. Punisment would be the worse thing to do.

Kinda strange.. to find myself, in comparison much like a person that is concidered a leech. So, yeah, thanks for sticking up for us leeches whom just happened to not have had the most flowery of lives.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:29:06 PM)

Suhlut,

You are anything but a leech, although if you were, you would be the sexiest one ever.




Lockit -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:38:29 PM)

Tough... Love... Two words combined in a phrase.  Each with importance and each with meaning.  Use one... no good... use both... in the right way... and it can be very good.  Love includes listening, nurturing, edifiying, building up, etc.  Tough... can include many things.  Mostly consistancy, structure, rules, guidelines, etc.

If you stay up late on a work night, you may suffer and some serious things could be a result.  Those would be the ramifications of your actions.  If there is no ramification for some things, no structure is there.  It is not the same thing as punishment really, but there has to be a ramification or people would run wild.  If someone whines... one might consider not responding to the whine and only responding when the person speaks normally.  This can be the tough aspect to the phrase.

This is what I mean by tough love.




NuevaVida -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:49:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: girlivy

FR~
Tough love works wonders.  May I suggest that first a list is compllied of words she is not permitted to use?  Words that have a negative connotation, and make sure the punishment is consistant when she does. Counseling  may be a good thing, but unless the person wants help, all efforts are futile. 
If she wants to beat herself up, then hand her a whip/belt/paddle etc... and have Her do it in front of you.  Bottom line is shes an adult, and has issues, which i commend you for doing your best to help her. May you be blessed with strength.
Cheers!


I can't imagine I am alone in beliving this would probably be as destructive as could be.  I am sure it would work for someone but as general advice, not just no but hell no.  Teaching her to not talk down is fine but it needs to be done slowly and with love and acceptance, not punishment.


What most people don't get is that it doesn't take much for people with really low self esteem to start spiraling down into a dark abyss of "I'm a failure! I can't do this! I'm not any good! I screwed it up again!" in response to any kind of negative stimuli.

The solutions presented by the writer above would probably translate into "I'm a bad person and not any good for doing what I am doing" and ultimately make things worse.

You gotta kind of find that balance between supporting/encouraging and allowing them to walk on their own in developing their own sense of value. Being overly positive, complimenting, and encouraging can be just as bad as being overly negative and harsh because you become a crutch for their esteem. Hence, they feel good about themselves based on the opinions of an external source and not from an internal one.


Actually, MR, it becomes a cause of distrust. If a person already hates him/herself and sees nothing of value in life, and that person's partner is only taking about how cool said person is...well it was my personal experience to simply not trust the complimenter as someone not having a clue what they're talking about or a liar.

Limiting vocabulary and means of expression for such a depressed soul will only sink the person further into his/her abyss. Definitely a bad idea.

What worked for me, outside of therapy, was to be given very doable tasks, but tasks that would challenge me just slightly. It grew from there. When the semi challenging task was finished, another would come, maybe just a tad more difficult. And so momentum built, and I began to feel like I could accomplish a lot more than I had previously thought. Being acknowledged and complimented for successfully completing those tasks was a big help as well. Being reminded to focus on the present, rather than the past, also helped, but being able to voice my issues and have them heard and accepted was critical.

To the OP, however, if you truly see this person as a drain, you are doing her no favors by keeping her and "working with her." In time, you'll both resent each other if this is the case.




suhlut -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:50:10 PM)

i understand the concept of "tough love"... my own mother tried getting the "tough love" group here involved back when she felt i was a wayward teen, and yeah, it was way overdue and late, to try making me believe she felt anything like "love" for me.. that tough part?.. sure, that was a MUCH easier concept for me to understand,  since she had been "tough" all my life.
Regardless her and her "tough love group" meet up against my indifference and i ignored both.

i knew it for what it was, a way to garner sympathy from complete strangers over the monster that was her daughter..lol




Lockit -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:51:31 PM)

Great Post NuevaVida!!!!!!!!!!




Lockit -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 9:57:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suhlut

i understand the concept of "tough love"... my own mother tried getting the "tough love" group here involved back when she felt i was a wayward teen, and yeah, it was way overdue and late, to try making me believe she felt anything like "love" for me.. that tough part?.. sure, that was a MUCH easier concept for me to understand,  since she had been "tough" all my life.
Regardless her and her "tough love group" meet up against my indifference and i ignored both.

i knew it for what it was, a way to garner sympathy from complete strangers over the monster that was her daughter..lol


I am so sorry you went through that suhlut... that is awful... those groups.  I support tough love.. but not those people or groups!  They can be awful monsters with no love in them!




girlivy -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 10:06:18 PM)

For me, the "tough" ment that I had to seperate myself emotionally from the person who was doing most harm to both themselves, and me.  A relationship is a relationship reguardless of who it is with.  Be that a daughter/lover/ etc etc.... When the realtionship starts to drain and wear on a person, it is time to take action. For myself, the time  to act has been after I felt I exaughsted every possible way to solve the issues... Granted at times, I have over extended my emotional state, but at the end of the day, in my heart, I knew I had done my best, and took comfort in that, even if the relationship was servered.  

I understand your coment about limiting vocabulary NV.  I do feel that  Limiting Negitave vocabuliary  is helpful, as the Laws of Karma are always at work, and what we send out, we recieve.  To voice something into the universe, is very powerful to what one brings to them. For instance, think for a moment please on the difference between theses two statements...
I am trying my best.
I am doing my best.
Cheers!




faithbunny -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 10:12:15 PM)

stella,

Thank you for sharing so much so openly. You're an amazing woman.

~faith




LATEXBABY64 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 10:31:51 PM)

 you this is really stupid it is not about fixing people cause that is the most dumb thing you can do 
it is about treating someone with that of being a human being more then just ds sometimes people are not a fit
personas and such it happens you can still her be her friend and guide her in a great way




NuevaVida -> RE: Helping negative people (10/17/2008 11:07:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Great Post NuevaVida!!!!!!!!!!


Thank you, Lockit. [:)]




JustDarkness -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 12:12:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

you this is really stupid it is not about fixing people cause that is the most dumb thing you can do 
it is about treating someone with that of being a human being more then just ds sometimes people are not a fit
personas and such it happens you can still her be her friend and guide her in a great way


agree fully.....but only if they want to behelped...else you might end worse then them.
been there.




Sexycelticlady -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 1:37:56 AM)

As someone who is working very hard to bring myself out of a very debilitating depression and being one of those negative people I wanted to add a few words from my own experience.

I would agree entirely with the people advocating tough love, structure and discipline. It sounds like J has got herself caught up in cycles of negative thoughts, a lot of which seem to stem from her past. That is exactly what I did. It culminated in attempting suicide and for about a year after that, during which I split up from my husband and moved countried, everything I tried to do just seemed to get me into more pain and hurt. I was caught up in a cycle. I would reason through things when I was feeling good and make some progress, but as soon as I hit a new obsticle it caused me anxiety and the depression dragged me down again.

I had many friends tell me that I was beautiful, that I was a really amazing person, if I could only see it for myself. This imply hurt me as I interpreted as them lying to me to get me to feel better. It made me worse. I could even see that myself. I did want to get out of the cycle but could see no way out.

What helped me more than anything else was someone saying to me "enough" and "stop". Someone who made a committment to me as nothing more than a friend, but provded me with security so that I knew I wouldn't be left alone. And then they put their foot down. They refused to engage with me when I was being neagtive. They instructed me to really examine what I was doing to myself and others. To be completely honest with what I was thinking and then explaining to me about how I was letting the past and my depression defeat me before I had even begun. They gave me some simple tasks to do that addressed some of the basic issues I have with myself. They got me to agree to a period of time during which I would do my uttmost to achieve certain tasks. Those tasks were all centered around myself, not to do with anyone else, but solely for me. If I didn't do what was requested I was warned harshly the first time and after that ignored. What did this do? It helped me to take control of myself again. That is what I had lost. Control. Achieving the tasks gave me some control. But I had to do if for myself, I understand that now, and not for my friend or anyone else, because to do that would not help me, it would facilitate my natural sub tendancy to please others.

I am learning and I am growing. And for the first time in ages I have been able to start to address things that I need to do. I have begun to live again. And it feels damn good. But I was not aided by kindness or understanding, although I know my friend felt those things, but by someone saying no.

Lily - you are the Mistress. Guide J but don't let her get away with her self serving attitude. Be there for her but stop enablin her and rewarding her for her self pity. It is a very hard lesson she needs to learn, but it can be done. I hope that my words have helped a little and wish you good luck.




antipode -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 3:14:25 AM)

She has probably discovered that you are much more invasive than she bargained for - if words like "spiritual", "empath" and "dawning of understanding" provide a correct view on your behaviour. That would give me the creeps. Let her go, and find healing that suits her better. Her manipulation comes from an inability to negotiate, and she'll learn that over time, not because you want her to. It is important that you understand that you understand that forcing your world view on another, and declaring them defective is both arrogant and disrespectful.




catize -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 6:42:44 AM)

quote:

 To the OP, however, if you truly see this person as a drain, you are doing her no favors by keeping her and "working with her." In time, you'll both resent each other if this is the case. 


Many people here have given positive advice and suggestions.  But once again, if she is not motivated, nothing will change.  Therapy is only helpful if the client is willing to do the work.   Re-framing negatives is successful only if the person has the desire to “hear” it. 
If she is indeed clinically depressed, she needs to accept the help by going to therapy and/or taking medication. 
NuevaVida and Sexycelticlady both give wonderful insights from their experiences; but the reason they were able to gain from that experience was because they Wanted-To-Change their outlook and behaviors.
I think the best approach would be a conversation with “j” to ask her:
A.  Does she see a need for change?
B.  Does she want to change?
C.  Is she willing to do the work to facilitate that change?
Her answers will determine the outcome. 




sweetsyn -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:11:48 AM)

Lily,

I had some question on this issue myself in the past.  I found some advice in the ask a Master thread.  There was a Master named PookBuccaus that put out some really good information based on His exprience with his.  At the point I sought the info I thought my issues might make me unsuitable to serve anyone.  After reading His information I felt there was hope.  If I remember correctly He credited a portion of His sucess to information He gained from a book called the loving Dominant.  Maybe checking the thread and the reference material may be of some help to You.

sweetsyn




OttersSwim -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:20:52 AM)

As has been said, facilitating change in a person is not like "flipping a switch"- it will take time for her to change.  What people in distress need is an environment that is safe and open and positive in which to rail, and then find quiet, and then hopefully find change.

It sounds as if you tried to provide her that safe and open and positive environment.  But realize that this is not the work of a day or a month, or perhaps even a year.

As catize has said, she also must be willing to affect change in her life.

I think it may be time for you and your family to sit down and talk about this.  Decide if you can/will provide her an environment conducive to healing any longer.  If the answer is yes, don't set a time limit on it (and I don't mean you are stuck forever).  Then talk to her about wanting her to come to a place of balance and peace regarding her past.  Try to get her some counseling.  Look for her desire to change this pattern.  Don't be surprised if you don't immediately find it.

And finally, don't expect her to ever become a serene happy butterfly - we are the sum of all of our experiences...




angelikaJ -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:25:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: suhlut

Okay..a thought occurs to me.. after reading You describe how she will use 3 pages to talk about negative things that happened in her life, rather then write about ONE beautiful thing she can be greatful for.

And that is.. i kinda know the headspace she is in.. i yank myself outta it nearly daily.. but.. what i am trying to say is.. perhaps she doesn't feel she has had enough of a chance to talk over her awful history.

So, i think, perhaps, it might be of some help, to spend as long as needed for her to feel that its all been talked out, all been shared, all been sympathised with and that she be made to feel justified in feeling how she feels, and most important of all understood.
~sherry 


This is where a good therapist can be very helpful...as keepers of our stories and also as guides to let us know that if we let go of our pain there is actually something left underneath...




stella41b -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:33:13 AM)

To me one of the most damaging things is the dynamic of the relationship - an M/s or Mistress-slave one where Mistress has a successful relationship (I assume) with her partner. This is what I feel is trapping J in her own misery, and for all her 'enlightenment' and 'spirituality' totally negates any help she could offer her.

This was a lesson which took me some time to understand myself. I have never been a slave, I have never been collared, but this hasn't stopped me trying to enter into a relationship with a domme as a slave. Some of the more regular posters will remember my online relationship last year with Halley, a domme in Mississippi. When Halley first approached me in the spring of 2007 I had just got out of a short relationship with a UK domme who suffered from ME and Halley approached me wanting me to be a domestic slave in her house in Mississippi. I went for this, because I saw that I was getting a support system, home and a new life all in one. It was only when she got to know me that she changed and said that she couldn't collar me as a slave because she felt it wouldn't be for the right reasons and that she would prefer to have a relationship with me as her submissive. We got on, there was chemistry, but my experience in Atlanta prevented us from meeting.

But those several months of online relationship with daily contact, even though I was getting nothing done here in the UK and living vicariously in Mississippi were beneficial, she helped me find confidence in myself, she encouraged me to blog, to write postings on these message boards and to come out of myself. This was also how MistressEllieS with whom I also had a short online relationship saw it. Both these dommes were blocking my attempt to 'give up' and become a slave and encouraging me to move towards theatre. They both worked on my self-esteem and self-confidence building me up and encouraging me to work at finding my own self-esteem and self-confidence within myself.

My mistake always was, and I suspect that it is exactly the same here with the OP, that J is seeking the solution in the relationship, where she will never find it. My solution and key to finding my own self-esteem and self-confidence doesn't lie in my relationships but in my artistic work and creativity. These are the only two things I do really well, that is to write plays and direct them. My entire life hinges on two days, the 5th July 2000 when at a major festival 600 people came to a 90 seater venue to see one of my plays and also my success in Warsaw theatre during 9/11. Since that time I have supported myself successfully from my work in theatre - this is my stability.

This is part of the reason why, despite having interest from Dark Knight Entertainments (who managed Monty Python) and also having the opportunity to work alongside Kevin Spacey at the Old Vic Theatre in London I have chosen to start again from the beginning in a small South London pub called The Duchess. My plays don't belong in theatres, but in non-theatrical spaces, and now by default my theatre despite its momentary collapse has become a BDSM fringe theatre. I'm in my ascendancy and coming back after three years of not having a play on stage (I tell a lie, there's currently a production of one of my comedies on the stage in Italian theatre). My change of name and gender hasn't affected my reputation as fringe playwright, and for the first time ever in my life I'm coming out of myself and learning that I am worthy of love and am popular and loved by a great many people.

I am also not criticizing the M/s dynamic, for it works and there are numerous examples all around of very successful M/s Master-slave relationships. But these are built on solid foundations with people who have the right headspace. You don't have to spend long enough on these boards to become aware that this isn't something which is universal.

Rather I am of the opinion that quite often people skip the first friendship stage, the second command and service stage and they jump right in after the sexual attraction and kink stage and try and develop a successful M/s relationship on that basis, which is at best risky. You also find M/s relationships being formed on the basis of mutual exploitation - the dominant wants cheap or free domestic help in the home with someone who they can also play with and have sex with and the submissive gets a stable home and an immediate support network, but in the case of the OP it's somehow only taking the easy route out, the line of least resistance and there's no guarantee it will address any of the issues.

You see if the submissive is a slave in such an exploitative relationship the relationship isn't interdependent but codependent, and they will invariably see themselves as inferior because they are the slave. Many of the transgendered do seek out such relationships which provides a degree of security and comfort but it also puts the onus of support and rehabilitation on the dominant and many dominants just don't have the strength or the resources to cope with someone going through a very stressful gender reassignment process with emotional or psychological issues.

SimplyMichael is dead right, blaming each other is only going to make things worse. Where is the blame? The blame lies in the responsibility here and that rests very squarely in my opinion on both sides, wherein this is just one more example of people going into M/s without really knowing, understanding or accepting each other.

I see two possible solutions here, and both involve changing the dynamic. The first option is to go poly and both the OP and her partner reestablish a relationship with J as primary support partners. The second option is to work out some sort of salary and employ J to work in the house on the same terms as a normal housekeeper. This may or may not be acceptable, but to me BDSM should never be a valid alternative to therapy nor a source of cheap or free domestic labour.

The problem is of course that there are very few people prepared to form relationships with people going through gender reassignment as primary partners or significant others for various reasons, many of them valid ones. It goes with the territory and the whole process. This is why I have never sought to pass myself off as a natural born female but am quite openly transgendered. I'm not politically correct, it's perfectly acceptable for me that many people find me unacceptable for a relationship because I am transgendered and I see it as their preference rather than their problem.

This also brings up the issue of 'you cannot love others if you cannot love yourself'. Gender reassignment is a voyage of self-discovery, and to find many of the answers you need to have answers for you do need to interact and form relationships with other people. Though I am getting better at resolving my own issues I also admit there are times when I project my own issues into my postings (I also do the same in my plays) and I also go through periods of being emotionally needy. This starts a downward spiral because often there is no one around to address these needs and I get into this mindset that I cannot be loved and I am unworthy of love. This is of course bullshit. Why am I still believing it after 40 years? I wish I had a way of explaining this, I really do. The only way to get roubnd this is for me to reach out to others and push myself more into situations where other people accept me so that I can work on changing and modifying my own self esteem. Nobody else can do this, I am the only person who can do this.

But I will leave it here, hopefully adding some more points to ponder.




MysticsLily -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:40:00 AM)

thank you all for the input and advice and opinions given.
 
I was trying very hard to help someone I love, to support her to the best of my ability and not worsen her self esteem by abandoning her.  I have never negated my own failings, I am very aware of who I am and what my personal struggles to become a better person entail.  I am human and still growing.  I am also fully experienced with severe depression on a personal level.  I choose to make this post devoid of my own history because my primary concern again is someone I love, not my personal past.  For the record we have discussed her past, in great detail, for hours on end, nearly every day that she has been here.  She is seeking the help of a therapist and she is considering medication and is also seeing  a gender specialist for therapy as well.  She is not trapped here and she has been given the choice of being here as a friend and roommate, submissive, or slave, and I also offered to help her get set up on her own.  She said she wants to be here, begged me not to release her.  I would never force someone to stay in a role they weren't suited for.  But I won't force her to leave if she wants to stay either.
 
I apologize if anything I said came of as anything more than the passionate desire to help a person I love immensely.  Sometimes my flowery style of writing interferes with my ability to communicate meaning.   It devestates me to see her suffering.  She has told me she wants change, that she wants to move forward.  And we talk.  I hold her and cry with her and can see the pain filled child and feel her pain.  I've been there and I hate seeing her hurt so much.  Maybe some of my attitude is misinterpreted desperation.  I've been where she is, I know there is a way into the light, but I am helpless to open her eyes.  Helplessneess is a very hard place to be for anyone like me and I am working with that.  There is alot of judgement against me for feeling a human level of helpless frustration yet I don't see any constructive advice on how to deal with my own feelings of failure and helplessness with this situation - it amazes me that people can spend hours criticizing what someone does wrong but little to no time suggesting what they can do to correct it.
 
I have never punished her physically.  We have played phsyically but I have never used coporal punishment with her.  I know better than that. 
 
 I apologize again if my plea for help came off as some sort of attempt at trying to seem superior.  I am honestly trying to find a way to help someone I care greatly for to the best of my ability. 
 
But to suggest that because I am human with human failings means that I should abandon her when she has indicated that she needs me . . .  I cannot fathom that.  In a realm where I hear constant complaints about velcro collars, to hear now that because things are hard, or because I have failings,  I should "set her free" confuses me.  Shouldn't we work hard to be able to support those we love?  Shouldn't we honor the commitments we make rather than turn our backs on them when things don't go our way?  To put her out now, or to drop her down from slave to submissive, wouldn't that cause a reaffirmation of her worry that she's not good enough?  Couldn't that do more damage? 
 
I agree that perhaps some of my language in my OP could have been worded differently.  I recognize now that I was complaining about her negativity but that my choice of certain words and phrases was negative as well.  Someone described saving a drowning person to me in a private email.  I reached into the well to try to pull her out and fell in with her.  I am working on pulling myself up so that I can reach out to her from dry land.  But in the mean time, I don't want to turn my back on her and let her drown either.  So I have to find a half way point, a way to love her and love myself at the same time.  I know it can be done.  My own dominant helped me find my way.  And no matter how miserable I wanted to be in my life and in my collar, she never gave up on me.  She never gave me up.  She saw intrinsic value in me, someone worth loving, worth fighting for.  My j is worth the same thing from me.
 
I would like to shift the conversation off of me please.  My primary concern is not myself, it is my slave girl - who is my lover, my friend and someone who is important to me.  I will not abandon her, I will not give up on her, and I will not give up on myself.  Some of you want to see me as a bad person.  I'm not a bad person, I occassionally have done bad things . . . I am human.  And I don't think it makes me bad to want to help someone I love.
 
Lily
 
 




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