RE: Helping negative people

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DomDolf -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:49:23 AM)
Quick Reply- The first thing that needs to happen is for you to determine the underlying "condition" this person has. Is she severely depressed or is she narcissistic? If you don't understand the psychology then you can't modify the behavior or even recognize all supporting issues. There are some things I would try if it turns out that she just needs to view the world differently. Either way this cannot hurt someone so you may want to try this no matter what the issue is. She must remember and write down why she cares to be where she is and why she desires to be a happy person. If she lacks this desire then she is likely in a boat that needs to have the leaks fixed before the cruise. Also determine what she "believes" will make her happy. You must maintain focus on reality and not chastise her if her reality is not kosher. Have her list her things she is grateful for. If she has nothing now, then go back further in time, maybe to her entire life what she is grateful for. Go back as far as is necessary. Give her a task EVERY DAY that requires her to do something completely selfless. Not something masked to look selfless but truly selfless with no gain for her. Make sure it has positive connotations around the task also. If she wants to say something negative let her, but also require her to think of and speak about something positive. Don't allow her to be a wise ass with her answers. She should be looking for something completely positive. She may need help with this at first. Don't allow her to be lazy and don't be afraid to be demanding. Sometimes negative people need a little negative to start moving in a positive direction. Not a lot of negative, just a little. Encourage her to recognize and limit contact with anyone that influences her negativity. If you want to be positive be with positive influences. Those that are terminally negative have no issues with dragging others down. It only supports their own negative beliefs. Teach her to control her emotions. Tell her when she has reacted negatively and poorly and how it is self-defeating. Show her how it does not support her desire and goals of being a happy person to react that way. Choose a calm time, far enough from the "incident" to make sure the message is not clouded by frustration, confusion or anger. The most important thing we all must understand is self-preservation. Not to the point of unnecessary selfishness but for survival. We cannot allow others to influence our happiness negatively. You too must find the positive and the way to keep this situation from draining you of your happiness. I would look at it as a pet project. Like a cold case file on a detective's desk this can be gnawed at as you can. Look at every step that you begin or enforce as an opportunity to help this woman become whole. Find joy in it somewhere and make it a positive thing for you. Maybe you should list the positives you will or are gaining from the situation. Find them and they will help you. Dolf

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:54:27 AM)
As an active receptive and projective empath, and a pastoral care provider of nearly a quarter-century, I find myself called into positions to work with a -lot- of people of similar mindsets. Sometimes, they're seeking out 'counseling' because they want to be able to say "look how much I'm doing, and I -still- have a crappy life"... an opportunity to obtain more pity and more nourishment for their particular form of self-esteem. Other times, they're coming to me because companions or family members can no longer deal with the perpetual negativity, threats of suicide, and attention-vamping. Now one thing it is important to clarify is that I do not believe that some of these folks have 'low self esteem'... in fact, they think very highly of themselves, and believe that they -deserve- a better life than what they've been subjected to up until this point. They mask their pride by appearing downtrodden and miserable and coerce others into telling them how wonderful they are and how 'worthy'. I will warn you that I consider myself a "tough cookie" as a counselor. My goal is to help people to get past themselves and to facilitate the healing of relationships damaged by 'perpetual victims' and 'energy abusers' -- past the need to use tools of self-immolation or self-victimization to obtain pity, and to enable people who don't know how to use any tools but manipulation and victim-display techniques to accept and give constructive participation in relationships. Many times, these folks are getting every bit of the attention that they desire through their behavior, and have little reason to change that behavior. My response to managing people who thrive on negativity is to refuse to respond to the 'negative bait'. When they bash themselves, instead of telling them how wonderful they are, I remind them that their sense of worth resides within themselves, and if they don't like themselves, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for other people to find any value in them. I set tasks and projects to help the person accept responsibility for hir lives and the choices xhe's made, and remind hir, when xhe brings up all the horrible things xhe's been through, that even if xhe didn't have a choice then, xhe does have one now, and those things are in the past and the -only- way to get past hir victimization is to let the past go, and live in today, and see hir own capacity to make positive choices about hir life -now-. You indicate that xhe is a slave, but even slaves (as I perceive you using the term) have the right and responsibility to make positive choices in their lives each day, including the perspective in which they serve. I have, on occasion, told one of our servants who insisted on the negative, hang-dog method of life-management that hir doing so was an insult to our household, where xhe was well treated and where xhe had the potential to shape hir life positively... and by choosing the negative over the positive, xhe was basically throwing our acceptance of hir into our House back in our faces. (Yes, sometimes guilt works where cajoling and 'nurturing' don't). I would be happy to discuss this more on the other side, if the approach sounds worthwhile.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 7:56:52 AM)
Love isn't good enough. It can be very useful, as a source of strength and motivation. But unless you apply practical skills to this situation, you'll all end up beaten and defeated. Internet advice is free. People you have never met will read the words you write through the lens of their own experiences. The posts are shotgun blasts, not lasers. If you find anything that hits the target, you are ahead of where you were 48 hours ago. Bottom line: you need advice that is not free. Go to a family therapist and fork over some cash. You go, not J. You control you, nobody else. Take the following perspective: "I am in a difficult situation with someone I love, and I want you to teach me listening skills, emotion-management skills, and anything else I might need to maximize my chances of success here."

zakkan -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:04:14 AM)
I would take a day off with her, and the first thing in the morning ask "what do you want to do today?" Then go ahead and do it. If there is time left in the day ask again. Usually people will say something that makes them happy. If she says "I want to jump off a building" then do some of the thing DomDolf suggested. It is very important that you let her know what she wants.

MysticsLily -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:21:58 AM)
DomDolf: Thank you!!!!! I absolutely love your ideas! I also found more truth in your tag line that really spoke to me and I have written it down so that I can think on it today. Calla: Thank you soooo much!!!! You may not (or maybe you do) know how much what you had to say to me meant to me. I will definately cmail you on the other side. redmagic: you are absolutely right. I got her therapy but I forgot that a support person needs support too. I absolutely appreciate that feed back. zakkan: a mini vacation sounds fabulous - for both of us. Thank you! Empowerment helps someone much more than rejection and criticism. Lily

juliaoceania -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:22:27 AM)
quote: ut to suggest that because I am human with human failings means that I should abandon her when she has indicated that she needs me . . . I cannot fathom that. In a realm where I hear constant complaints about velcro collars, to hear now that because things are hard, or because I have failings, I should "set her free" confuses me. Shouldn't we work hard to be able to support those we love? Shouldn't we honor the commitments we make rather than turn our backs on them when things don't go our way? To put her out now, or to drop her down from slave to submissive, wouldn't that cause a reaffirmation of her worry that she's not good enough? Couldn't that do more damage? I am someone that has suffered from PTSD and depression in my life. I still battle anxiety, I could easily be diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, but I quit going to the shrink long ago because it was not helpful to me. It depends on the person as to how successful counseling is. Here are some scientific findings that can help you in a search to understand your girl. First of all depression is a physical problem, not just emotional, although it has emotional components. The pathways of the brain get accustomed to certain types of thoughts. In other words the more you use information or a certain way of thinking, the easier it becomes to think this way. Think of such examples of this that you are familiar with as an analogy... if you are taking math classes it is best to continue taking a string of them because your mind get accustomed to this way of interacting with the environment. They are finding that "negative" thoughts create pathways in the brain and the more one thinks this way, the easier it becomes to think this way and the harder it becomes not to think this way. If she is a victim of childhood abuse this could further complicate learning how to think more "positively" as she may never have done so in her life. It takes a lot of effort to create new pathways. Think of my math example, if you find math hard it is going to be hard to create the pathways that deal with math... Now she is the only one that can create new pathways in her brain. Her temperament may not be conducive to it. This is where genetic predisposition interfaces with environment to create a whole person. If I were advising her I would recommend that she pay closer attention to how she feels about her thoughts than the content of those thoughts. It is the feelings that those thoughts create that she is very used to, they are comfortable, and new thoughts are going to be uncomfortable. She is also getting something out of the way she thinks about the world or she would change it. Basically I think this girl needs professional help. It would be a good idea to have her write her thoughts down and try to consciously reframe them in a more positive way, in her own words. If a person is viewing the world in negative way it is hard for them to change that to something positive and any improvement helps. I would do a search on neural pathways and depression... there is some exciting work being done in this regard. This is not a behavioral issue in my mind, and people are not dogs that can be conditioned by stimuli so easily. It might work in some cases, but not in a case like this. You really need professional help, perhaps she needs medication to balance her brain. I would insist that she does one thing, exercise and eat right. It is the best way to holistically treat the organic causes of depression. There is no quick fix.. and only she can fix it... if she is unwilling to take baby steps to wellness you are only enabling her to stay the way she is. Notice I said baby steps, because it is a long process, and I wouldn't give up on her unless she showed me she had no intention of doing anything to address her issues

oceanwynds -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:22:32 AM)
It is hard to see someone you love hurting. Along time ago, i went through a severe depression. After my Dr. found the right medication for me, i started to be able to lift myself out of it. This though did not help me get out of my negative view of life. My late husband sat me down and told me, look you going to pull yourself up or you going to stay down. He would not let me lean on him. Many thought that was mean of him, but too this day i am so appreciative that he did not baby me. . I needed to pull myself out of the pity party and victim mode, if i wanted to enjoy life. I also work daily as a spiritual advisor, and to be honest, most people love the victim role. They get something out of it that is of value to them. Only when people stop feeding it, do they fight to get out of it. We all have had hard times and major challenges through life, no one has not. It is up to the person to want to break free. All you can do is not feed her need of being a victim. Many blessings to you. oceanwynds

Elenaconfined -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:29:57 AM)
Im a depresive. Its not the same as being depressed alot. Its more like being a manic depressive without the "fun" upswings. I had a hard life and more then once was suicidal. The only thing that helped me was to get into counciling. I spent a year going twice a week wile on medication. After a wile it was only once a week then every other week finaly once a month. After three years I was given the ok and weened off my meds. It wasn't the meds dependancy that made me "better" it was learning the skills no one had taught me on how to cope. All the meds did was make me stable enough to take in what I was beeing taught. It is true that you can't make a person be ready for change but as her Mistress you may be able to find a way to make therapy a requierment of service. Most Doms (offical and unoffical) I have known have wanted me to be the best person I can. They couldn't, no matter how they tried, have taught me the coping skills that have made me a more confident, health person. The mind of a depressive is the worst prison I have ever known. Even now I have to work daily to keep from being traped in that self loathing hell. There is a support network for people called "Adult Children of Disfuntion" or ACD. Just look it over you may see a profile that fits your Sub. If you can find a way to get her into a program stick with her and go to all the family and loved ones meetings. At the least your support may show her she has value. Some times thats the first step to wanting to get better. Best of Luck Elena

windchymes -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:36:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MysticsLily thank you all for the input and advice and opinions given. I was trying very hard to help someone I love, to support her to the best of my ability and not worsen her self esteem by abandoning her. I have never negated my own failings, I am very aware of who I am and what my personal struggles to become a better person entail. I am human and still growing. I am also fully experienced with severe depression on a personal level. I choose to make this post devoid of my own history because my primary concern again is someone I love, not my personal past. For the record we have discussed her past, in great detail, for hours on end, nearly every day that she has been here. She is seeking the help of a therapist and she is considering medication and is also seeing a gender specialist for therapy as well. She is not trapped here and she has been given the choice of being here as a friend and roommate, submissive, or slave, and I also offered to help her get set up on her own. She said she wants to be here, begged me not to release her. I would never force someone to stay in a role they weren't suited for. But I won't force her to leave if she wants to stay either. I apologize if anything I said came of as anything more than the passionate desire to help a person I love immensely. Sometimes my flowery style of writing interferes with my ability to communicate meaning. It devestates me to see her suffering. She has told me she wants change, that she wants to move forward. And we talk. I hold her and cry with her and can see the pain filled child and feel her pain. I've been there and I hate seeing her hurt so much. Maybe some of my attitude is misinterpreted desperation. I've been where she is, I know there is a way into the light, but I am helpless to open her eyes. Helplessneess is a very hard place to be for anyone like me and I am working with that. There is alot of judgement against me for feeling a human level of helpless frustration yet I don't see any constructive advice on how to deal with my own feelings of failure and helplessness with this situation - it amazes me that people can spend hours criticizing what someone does wrong but little to no time suggesting what they can do to correct it. I have never punished her physically. We have played phsyically but I have never used coporal punishment with her. I know better than that. I apologize again if my plea for help came off as some sort of attempt at trying to seem superior. I am honestly trying to find a way to help someone I care greatly for to the best of my ability. But to suggest that because I am human with human failings means that I should abandon her when she has indicated that she needs me . . . I cannot fathom that. In a realm where I hear constant complaints about velcro collars, to hear now that because things are hard, or because I have failings, I should "set her free" confuses me. Shouldn't we work hard to be able to support those we love? Shouldn't we honor the commitments we make rather than turn our backs on them when things don't go our way? To put her out now, or to drop her down from slave to submissive, wouldn't that cause a reaffirmation of her worry that she's not good enough? Couldn't that do more damage? I agree that perhaps some of my language in my OP could have been worded differently. I recognize now that I was complaining about her negativity but that my choice of certain words and phrases was negative as well. Someone described saving a drowning person to me in a private email. I reached into the well to try to pull her out and fell in with her. I am working on pulling myself up so that I can reach out to her from dry land. But in the mean time, I don't want to turn my back on her and let her drown either. So I have to find a half way point, a way to love her and love myself at the same time. I know it can be done. My own dominant helped me find my way. And no matter how miserable I wanted to be in my life and in my collar, she never gave up on me. She never gave me up. She saw intrinsic value in me, someone worth loving, worth fighting for. My j is worth the same thing from me. I would like to shift the conversation off of me please. My primary concern is not myself, it is my slave girl - who is my lover, my friend and someone who is important to me. I will not abandon her, I will not give up on her, and I will not give up on myself. Some of you want to see me as a bad person. I'm not a bad person, I occassionally have done bad things . . . I am human. And I don't think it makes me bad to want to help someone I love. Lily I'm basing my comments here on this post.... I do appreciate that you care deeply for j and she is lucky to have you, and that you truly want to help her. It occurs to me, though, that perhaps you are rewarding her negativity with attention and more attention and still more attention. As someone else said, you can't "love" someone out of a depression or raise their self-esteem simply by lavishing them with affection. Instead you are teaching her that negativity gets her positive attention. And, it sounds as though it hasn't changed anything. Rather than reward her negativity, when she starts going down that path, just (nicely) cut if off in mid-sentence and say something along the lines of, "Nope, that's not acceptable" and change the subject. Steer it towards positivity. Don't feed into it. And then lavishly reward the positive when it occurs. You mention "dropping her down from slave to submissive", but think "that would cause a reaffirmation of her worry that she's not good enough". You can't mollycoddle and make her world perfect 24/7. Perhaps giving her a goal to attain would increase her self-esteem when she attains it? By mollycoddling her, you're taking away a lot of her ability to increase her own self-esteem. There's an old saying that people rise to the level of their expectations. If she has nothing that's expected of her, what can she expect to attain?

MysticsLily -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:41:58 AM)
Just to clarify I am not attempting to help her by myself. She has two therapists. One is a therapist for depression and the other is a gender therapist. She stopped seeing the gender therapist when the focus of the therapy turned from a surface level requirement to get approval with her transgender hormones to actually dealing with her child hood issues. I put my foot down and she is back in that program. We just got the appointment for the general therapist a few days ago - before I even posted. After reading alot of this mornings posts - and thank you to EVERYONE who stepped forward about depression and reminded me how important it is to keep her in therapy - I called the office back and asked for a private session with the therapist as a support person. Believe it or not I am listening to every person who took the time to respond to me - even when those responses seemed critical or judgemental. Anything that provokes an emotional response deserves to be looked at and gleaned the truth of. I try to listen to every point of view, even when I don't agree with it. to all of those who took the time to write me on the other side - every word had meaning. Thank you windchymes: I am starting to agree with you and others who have mentioned the "victim" personality. I may be subconsciously feeding her with more attention for negative behavior. I do think perhaps the frequently mentioned ideas of cutting off the negativity and simply not giving the bad behavior any attention at all - rather like ignoring a toddler's tantrum in a busy store - might be of some use. Lily

lydwina -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:47:11 AM)
Are there other members of your household? If so, how are they taking the new members need for the extra time needed to help her?To me it looks as though she has been holding in some traits she was able to withhold from you until she was able to find herself in a comfortable space where she could let down her guard and unload her emotions.Being transgendered my guess is that she has already undergone some sort of psychotherapy in order to be allowed to go through her transformation.Unraveling a persons inner demons takes years and sometimes professionals do not have all the answers.

RealSub58 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 8:57:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalista07 1. Have her make a daily list of 25 things she's grateful for. Atempting to find 25 things she is grateful for is like asking her to swim the pacific ocean. 1-3 for each day. Have her explain why she is grateful. Praise and encourage those. (Expect that they can and will be very simplistic in the beginning) Tell her she will not be able to do X, Y, or Z until she does this. Make sure X, Y, or Z are very valuable to her. Excellent thots. 2. Tell her that for the next few days she is going to begin working on her negativity issues. Tell her that she's only permitted to say negative things for one hour (may 3 or 4 times a day in the beginning and then reduce as available) and if she says something negative her consequence will be Q. (Again make sure Q is important to her). I dont agree. These negative tapes MUST be erased, removed from her thinking. If a negative comes from her mouth, it comes from her heart and soul...immediately stop it and have her put it into a positive. Kali There are various kinds of GRATEFULLNESS journals in places like Barnes and Noble. I used one for many months. Another thing that really helped me Miss Lily, was structured sessions when I would sit down and draw my feelings. Once a day. It was so hard in the beginning. Sometimes I only took a black crayon and scribbled with it. I was given specific things to draw each day at a given time.... (once again structure). This is excellent for a person to see their feelings, drawn by themselves. Discussing it with her then helps...always making the negative into a positive.

WhiplashSmile2 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 9:02:38 AM)
While I have no real advice in terms of what to do to help person that's negative to the level in the OP. My advice is to make certain that it does not take a toll on the your own positive engery. Dare I express this, I tried to deal with and help a partner in a four and half year relationship. Little did I realize how it was slowly bringing me down lower and lower. It's been a little over two years since that relationship ended. Trust me, that it carried over some deep long lasting engery, that I have had to wrestle with. The thing was that slowly and bit by bit it was bringing me down. It effected my self-esteem, my believe in my ownself, a bit of a daily battle to enjoy things in a positive light. As much as we love, care for and want to help others, it's important to remember to love ourselves and keep ourself safe and sane. We need to make certain that our own lives are filled with positive things. As other people have posted, she has got to want to change inorder for change to occur. However, you may be able to make her see things about herself in a different light that may inspire her to want to change. Guess that is really the solution, if you can or can not find a way to inspire her to want to change. At times people want to change when they can no longer accept and tolerate thier own behavior, when the realize the problems it is causing for themselves or somebody they deeply love or care about. I do not suspect this will be a quick and easy process either. In fact it may take a matter of a few years. My heart goes out to you, I've been there said it, done it, and... no matter how hard we try to help somebody. In the end, it's up to them. If they refuse to change or are incapable of changing, remember you did everything you could. Please do not feel like you failed them, or that you were a failure at helping them in the end. Some of us Dominant types, would like to believe we can fix and solve all problems. We want to that person that is in control, even in another persons self-improvement. Does not always work out so well. Keep in mind your own limits. There is clearly a point when trying to help somebody may cause yourself harm in the process.

RealSub58 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 9:40:02 AM)
I am listening to NuevaVida's tagline while I read..... it's totally awesome. Thank you for sharing. Maybe j needs to enjoy it once a day Lily. Always look on the bright side of life

gypsygrl -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 9:58:29 AM)
An observation: You haven't said anything unambiguosly positive about 'j' in your post. Its all negative and the sense I get from what you've written is that you don't really like her much. You even went so far to say that you blocked her out. You say she has intrinsic value, but don't give any concrete reasons for saying this. Specifically, I'm wondering what it is about her that you are attracted to, what her positive qualities are. I'm not talking abstract things like 'intrinsic value' which she has because she's human, but those things that are unique to her. What is it about her that makes her a beautiful person and worthy of being your slave? How does she enhance your life? I'm guessing that once you are able to answer these questions, things will get easier for you and you'll find a way to convey your positive feelings towards her. And, if you can't come up with any good answers, you're probably screwed.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 10:12:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gypsygrl An observation: You haven't said anything unambiguosly positive about 'j' in your post. Its all negative and the sense I get from what you've written is that you don't really like her much. You even went so far to say that you blocked her out. You say she has intrinsic value, but don't give any concrete reasons for saying this. Specifically, I'm wondering what it is about her that you are attracted to, what her positive qualities are. I'm not talking abstract things like 'intrinsic value' which she has because she's human, but those things that are unique to her. What is it about her that makes her a beautiful person and worthy of being your slave? How does she enhance your life? I'm guessing that once you are able to answer these questions, things will get easier for you and you'll find a way to convey your positive feelings towards her. And, if you can't come up with any good answers, you're probably screwed. I strongly agree with this.

Raechard -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 10:15:30 AM)
Negative people are attracted to protons thus the solution is obvious: buy her a proton. FWIW.[8\|]

DommeInDelaware -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 10:46:43 AM)
Lily, BDSM as far as I know, can't cure cancer, can't cure AIDS, and it can't even remove that pesky ring around the collar. Damnit, I'm so disapointed, anyway. It also can't cure depression. It can help. It can't cure it. BDSM is not a magical snap your fingers and the condition is gone sort of deal. So take away everything from the condition, you being a Mistress, J being a slave, her negativity, past etc. What do you have left? 2 people in an unhappy relationship. So now what? Do you both want to fix that? While you both possess alot of tools and skills, it appears that they aren't what can fix the relationship. Perhaps BOTH of you going to a counselor TOGETHER?

kiwisub12 -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 2:32:49 PM)
As far as how long it would take to change attitudes - it took me three years of therapy to change my attitude towards men and committment. Can you wait that long? and possibly have her leave because she has grown beyond you? One thing not addressed was when you gave her an assignment to write about a positive thing and she wrote three pages of negativeness - did you punish her? She failed an assignment given to her by one in authority. This may seem minor, but if my Sir lets me get away with things he has assigned i tend to take it as being less than caring. Seems to me you have taken upon yourself a hard row to hoe, and i admire your committment.

tweedydaddy -> RE: Helping negative people (10/18/2008 2:56:04 PM)
I would not try to rewire my house unless I had the required skills, training and experience to do it safely. I certainly would expect that rewiring someone's mind would require several years training and a dedicated team. It really does not matter a jot what you feel, if you aren't a clinically trained pyschologist you are looking for a world of pain all round.

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