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RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 6:47:07 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What is psychological domination to you? Is it used in your relationship? Is it something you enjoy?

"Psychological domination" is redundant.

Domination is all psychological.  Anything else is just topping (or icing, depending on your particular fetish! )


Yeah... but some people just don't "get it."

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 6:49:00 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

  I only take risks where all factors are known and I do not take them with an individual's well-being.  



quote:

  No one can know everything. Correct. There is always some level of risk. Agreed.


Contradict yourself much?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 6:52:51 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

Wiggle? Me? Wrong guy!

Her reaction will be to want to shift, to move from her position.


And how does this differ from any other unrestrained impact play?

quote:


It is my job to keep her there through words, suggestions, lures or whatever it takes to keep her wanting to obey me.


Is it not enough to simply say "stay there"?  Why would someone in mental bondage need anything more than a simple instruction.  Works just fine for me in unrestrained impact play, and I've never had any mental bondage... just an obedient girl. 

quote:


Her actions will either please me or disappoint me. She has a choice. I either am successful or I fail. Her decision to not move, to obey, to please is because she has experienced a great desire to do so no matter what comes her way. I must be accurate in my assessments of her abilities (including physical and mental factors) and her desire. This is not something you do with some girl you met at a munch that afternoon of course. And it's easy to tie her up and take away some of her moment by moment decision making. I want her to make that decision every second and have it reinforced on a constant basis that she is mine and she wants to be there and wants to please me.


Is it possible to process that decision making every second when engaged in impact play... or play of any kind?  I'm not a bottom or submissive/slave, so I don't know from first hand experience (and neither do you).  Does this form of "mental bondage" preclude sub space?  After all, I'm not sure that such processing can occur during sub space.
 
Honestly, you sound like a smart guy who is trying to make a simple act of unrestrained impact play sound like something far more than it really is.  But then, that's not unheard of online or in BDSM where it seems lots of folks have some need to feel special.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 6:58:10 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

  I only take risks where all factors are known and I do not take them with an individual's well-being.  



quote:

  No one can know everything. Correct. There is always some level of risk. Agreed.


Contradict yourself much?


Ever heard of recognizing that you were taken quite literally when the answer should be obvious to the contrary? Have you agreed that someone made a valid point and have it pushed at you in a rude manner? What type of person does that? You don't have to respect me or respond to me. I am fine with both.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 6:58:15 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		I have to say that I have experienced exactly this with my Lady.  For me, it was totally mental, trying to not move, please her, even as she was spanking me - hard.  Very head spacey - hard and wonderful at the same.  I wonder if we are simply mashing terms around for something that I personally find delicious.  

What about bringing a sub to the point of climax and counting down from five - not letting them cum until the Dominant reaches 0?  Holding you on the edge with nothing but words...


_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 7:03:03 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I don't negatively take advantage of those I work with I use my understanding of strength and weaknesses to place them properly within the team.



I appreciate that strengths and weaknesses have to be indentified and harnessed, in order to achieve the optimum. I don't believe it requires 'psychological domination', however, to achieve this. Presumably, they've been assessed at the interview stage, and their role in the team follows from contract agreement; any move to renegotiate the contract through 'psychological domination' may effect an uncomfortable working life on your part. I would steer clear from exercising your authority in any manner that is outside of your work contract; presumably there is no clause in the agreement to the effect that you should use "psychological domination to achieve results". Plus, do you not have a customer code of ethics? Something along the lines of: "honesty, courtesy, professionalism and fairness when dealing with customers". 

While I understand that negotiation is a difficult beast to master, and that sometimes people will not necessarily lay their cards on the table while negotiating, I think it is a delicate matter as most businessmen are sharp, and will spot any attempt at manipulation a mile off; consequently, they'll want to fight fire with fire. Presumably they have something you want and you have something they want: I'd advise on focusing on this when negotiating the situation, rather than attempt to control people who really don't want to be controlled.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I only take risks where all factors are known and I do not take them with an individual's well-being.

Dolf



It's certainly wise to understand that which you're dealing with and consider the impact of your actions on well-being. Yet you can't eradicate risk when dealing with an individual; all you can do is manage the risk, and then it comes down to a question of whether or not you have the skills and knowledge to manage this risk competently.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 7:17:33 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

Wiggle? Me? Wrong guy!

Her reaction will be to want to shift, to move from her position.


And how does this differ from any other unrestrained impact play?

quote:


It is my job to keep her there through words, suggestions, lures or whatever it takes to keep her wanting to obey me.


Is it not enough to simply say "stay there"?  Why would someone in mental bondage need anything more than a simple instruction.  Works just fine for me in unrestrained impact play, and I've never had any mental bondage... just an obedient girl. 

quote:


Her actions will either please me or disappoint me. She has a choice. I either am successful or I fail. Her decision to not move, to obey, to please is because she has experienced a great desire to do so no matter what comes her way. I must be accurate in my assessments of her abilities (including physical and mental factors) and her desire. This is not something you do with some girl you met at a munch that afternoon of course. And it's easy to tie her up and take away some of her moment by moment decision making. I want her to make that decision every second and have it reinforced on a constant basis that she is mine and she wants to be there and wants to please me.


Is it possible to process that decision making every second when engaged in impact play... or play of any kind?  I'm not a bottom or submissive/slave, so I don't know from first hand experience (and neither do you).  Does this form of "mental bondage" preclude sub space?  After all, I'm not sure that such processing can occur during sub space.
 
Honestly, you sound like a smart guy who is trying to make a simple act of unrestrained impact play sound like something far more than it really is.  But then, that's not unheard of online or in BDSM where it seems lots of folks have some need to feel special.
 
John


Pretty much once sub space kicks in the situation changes. I am happy when I see that. For me mental bondage is used as a warm up usually. Simple instructions aren't always enough.

I need nothing to make me feel artificially special to anyone online or off. I know you don't know me, I know there is a problem with misinformation and game players everywhere.

I will concede one thing about me. I analyze everything. Sometimes I over-analyze things. No matter what I do correctly, incorrectly or to the wrong degree I have become successful in most everything I do. I wouldn't change anything in a large way. I will continue to seek perfection with the understanding that I cannot achieve it.

The term 'mental bondage' was not invented by me. It is something I have an interest in. I wanted to know if others did too. All I've seen thus far is how dangerous it is to start a topic. I love a good debate, but this has gone from a debate to creating snickering BS and practically skipped discussion. Maybe I am the only one that sees it this way.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 7:40:24 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I don't negatively take advantage of those I work with I use my understanding of strength and weaknesses to place them properly within the team.



I appreciate that strengths and weaknesses have to be indentified and harnessed, in order to achieve the optimum. I don't believe it requires 'psychological domination', however, to achieve this. Presumably, they've been assessed at the interview stage, and their role in the team follows from contract agreement; any move to renegotiate the contract through 'psychological domination' may effect an uncomfortable working life on your part. I would steer clear from exercising your authority in any manner that is outside of your work contract; presumably there is no clause in the agreement to the effect that you should use "psychological domination to achieve results". Plus, do you not have a customer code of ethics? Something along the lines of: "honesty, courtesy, professionalism and fairness when dealing with customers". 

While I understand that negotiation is a difficult beast to master, and that sometimes people will not necessarily lay their cards on the table while negotiating, I think it is a delicate matter as most businessmen are sharp, and will spot any attempt at manipulation a mile off; consequently, they'll want to fight fire with fire. Presumably they have something you want and you have something they want: I'd advise on focusing on this when negotiating the situation, rather than attempt to control people who really don't want to be controlled.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I only take risks where all factors are known and I do not take them with an individual's well-being.

Dolf



It's certainly wise to understand that which you're dealing with and consider the impact of your actions on well-being. Yet you can't eradicate risk when dealing with an individual; all you can do is manage the risk, and then it comes down to a question of whether or not you have the skills and knowledge to manage this risk competently.


I have a "style of management" that does not harm others. I treat my clients with the utmost of respect and they receive top quality service, support and consultation from me and our staff. Yes we have a code of ethics. We abide by it almost fanatically. I am not talking about customers. I am talking about vendors mainly... sales people. I consult in areas that I understand and my clients do not have the best grasp of. These sales people will run them into the ground with unnecessary BS if the customer doesn't deal with them with complete knowledge. Me and my team provide that for the client. I negotiate constantly. The vendors don't necessarily love to see me in a meeting, but they know they better be accurate and fair. They know they are facing RFPs and don't get the easy ride to the money. My customers are assured that they have received the best products, options and deal with no filler or fluff. Salesmen come and go and are not always as wise as my clients. This is one reason sales is a tough place to be.

I think you misunderstand me if you believe that I would show my understanding of psychology in a way that would indicate unfair manipulation. It seems common to interpret use of psychology as sly manipulation. We all use knowledge to benefit us. I use my knowledge of certain human attributes to  understand where the person or persons I am dealing with may be coming from. I will also use knowledge of their corporate history, current market position, future projects, past success and failures, specific personal knowledge, etc.

When I see a vendor getting nervous about their bottom line in a deal I make sure to tell them that I will be fair, but they will have to justify their proposals. Sometimes they are good at justifying and sometimes they are not. I am always fair. If I weren't I would lose clients because the vendors would refuse to deal with me. It brings me no pain to see them sigh when they see me but they still sit at the table and return the calls. Mission accomplished.

Dolf

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 7:46:35 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

Pretty much once sub space kicks in the situation changes. I am happy when I see that. For me mental bondage is used as a warm up usually. Simple instructions aren't always enough.


You've been really bouncing around these terms, and I'm not sure you or I understand them (or have the same understanding of them).  You started with a post about psychological domination within the context of a power exchange relationship.  Now it has morphed into mental bondage within the context of a scene.  They are not interchangeable concepts.  So, which is it?

quote:


I need nothing to make me feel artificially special to anyone online or off. I know you don't know me, I know there is a problem with misinformation and game players everywhere.


You're right, I don't know you and could be way off the mark.  I'm just using some judgement based upon what you've said for yourself, and my personal experience.

quote:


I will concede one thing about me. I analyze everything. Sometimes I over-analyze things.


You've also said that you listen and learn... that such qualities are what make you so successful in your business consulting firm.  A common method of refining our philosophies is to lay them out there for others to pick apart... we listen to what others find fault with and revise our philosophy to make more sense.  No one can analyze in a vacuum and come up with all the answers themselves.  I would suggest that you've been shown several areas in which your posts have been shown wanting, and it's up to you to decide if listening and learning are really qualities that you embrace.

quote:


No matter what I do correctly, incorrectly or to the wrong degree I have become successful in most everything I do. I wouldn't change anything in a large way. I will continue to seek perfection with the understanding that I cannot achieve it.


Great... very noble of you. 

quote:


The term 'mental bondage' was not invented by me. It is something I have an interest in. I wanted to know if others did too.


Well, that's not how you started this thread.  First, the term "mental bondage" is mentioned as an afterthought in your opening post, and you didn't ask any questions about it at all.  Your post was about "psychological dominance" and that's what you asked questions about.  In fact, here's exactly what you said:

quote:


I am into Ds for the psychological aspects and I feel there is far more that can be achieved through psychological domination than through more physical or direct methods.

I use the psychological makeup of the people I deal with in business or in Ds to gain an advantage, structure and control through methods that incorporate my understanding of their strengths and weaknesses. Of course there is nothing physical in this.

I also use things like mental bondage to control a slave physically.

What is psychological domination to you? Is it used in your relationship? Is it something you enjoy?


I don't see where you asked any question about "mental bondage".  Do you?

quote:


All I've seen thus far is how dangerous it is to start a topic.


There's nothing dangerous about starting a topic.  In fact, there's nothing dangerous at all about engaging in discussion here, unless you consider a damaged ego to rise to the level of "danger".  But if you don't like a divergence of opinion, and you don't have a well constructed position to share in the first place, this might not be the place for you.  That's up to you, of course.

quote:


I love a good debate, but this has gone from a debate to creating snickering BS and practically skipped discussion. Maybe I am the only one that sees it this way.


Honestly, I sense no love of debate in your postings, though they may not convey your true sentiments.  But I do sense a need/desire to be "right", and to have the rest of us accept your premise as factual without dissent. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 7:53:08 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I am always fair.


As you have noted previously, no one is capable of achieving the ideal.  I have no doubt that you're fair in the great majority of cases.  But no one is fair all of the time, particularly when "fair" is relative term (ie: there is nothing even approaching universal acceptance of what constitutes "fair").
 
And as it relates to this thread, this is illustrative of the propensity to assign ourselves the "high ground" in any discussion, and to portray (at least to ourselves) those who disagree as "unfair" in their disagreement.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 7:59:21 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

What type of person does that?  

Someone who expects consistency in order to take you seriously.



quote:

  You don't have to respect me or respond to me. I am fine with both.

 Of course it will be fine for you if you don’t have to provide any sort of adequate rationale to support your statements.   


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 8:04:10 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

It seems common to interpret use of psychology as sly manipulation.



Therein lies the problem. That which you may deem to be a fair application of 'psychological domination', may appear to be manipulative to others, and the workplace isn't the time or the place to engage in private beliefs; the only values that matter are the values enshrined in the contract and code of ethics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I will be fair



From what I've read, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you will aim to be fair. Yet were you my employee, I'd be hammering home the notion that the only fairness with which you need to be concerned, is the fairness outlined in the company mission statement, code of ethics, strategy and your contract.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 9:06:15 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize



Have a nice day.

< Message edited by DomDolf -- 10/20/2008 9:08:03 AM >

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 9:07:20 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover




Thank you for your input. Have a nice day.



(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 9:11:13 AM   
DomDolf


Posts: 363
Joined: 7/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

It seems common to interpret use of psychology as sly manipulation.



Therein lies the problem. That which you may deem to be a fair application of 'psychological domination', may appear to be manipulative to others, and the workplace isn't the time or the place to engage in private beliefs; the only values that matter are the values enshrined in the contract and code of ethics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I will be fair



From what I've read, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt that you will aim to be fair. Yet were you my employee, I'd be hammering home the notion that the only fairness with which you need to be concerned, is the fairness outlined in the company mission statement, code of ethics, strategy and your contract.


I am always as fair as possible. I run all things by staff members with the responsibility to assure that we are "doing the right thing", which includes being fair. I am my boss and I hold myself to a higher standard then I do anyone in my employ. You have spoken well. Thank you. Have a nice day.

Dolf

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 9:13:50 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover




Thank you for your input. Have a nice day.


You're welcome... it's been enjoyable.  Looking forward to the next opportunity.  Wishing you a nice day as well.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 9:43:23 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What is psychological domination to you? Is it used in your relationship? Is it something you enjoy?

"Psychological domination" is redundant.

Domination is all psychological.  Anything else is just topping (or icing, depending on your particular fetish! )



Hell, as I said in my post earlier, even -topping- (at least for me) has 'psychological domination' (aka, 'mindf*ck) capabilities!

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 9:47:11 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomDolf

I am always as fair as possible.



Fair enough, Dolf. All the best.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DomDolf)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 10:05:44 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

even -topping- (at least for me) has 'psychological domination' (aka, 'mindf*ck) capabilities!


everything with out contact is psychological......

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Psychological Domination - 10/20/2008 11:25:01 AM   
Fizzgig168


Posts: 28
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline 		Newbie's gonna jump in the fray here.  Be nice, lol.

It seems to me like a lot of these terms are interchangeable, but it's easy to get hung up on technicalities especially since a lot of the terms we use can be viewed so differently by so many people.

A lot of you have said that you don't think there is domination at all unless it's psychological.  I agree completely.  But I think there are a lot of different levels and I think that's where Dolf was trying to go with this one. 

Anyway, Dolf, to answer the questions you asked:  Psychological domination is... complicated?  To say the least.  A person could write a book on "what it is" and still not cover everything.  Simplest terms, though, I feel like it's when a Dom has really gotten insde a sub's head.  Really, it's the ability to manipulate, which sounds ugly but doesn't always have to be.  I personally wouldn't be able to be in a relationship with someone who didn't have the ability to get in my head, to know me well enough and be smart enough to manipulate me.  I feel like that's the only way I can really give all of myself, if a Dom is able to take control of my mind just as much as he can take control of my body.

You mentioned "mental bondage" a few times throughout this thread, and disregarding all the semantics that can be argued back and forth, I know what you mean.  I have a sort of love/hate relationship with it.  If I'm tied down then I'm free to struggle and wriggle and try to get away.  I can fight the pain and that makes it somehow easier to handle.  For me, anyway.  But when my Dom doesn't tie me down then all I have keeping me there is him.  I have to force myself to stay put when the only thing I've got is a desire to please him.  I know if he didn't have the kind of mental control I think you're talking about over me, I'd never find the strength, the will power, or really even the desire to keep myself there for him, to do as he says simply because it will please him.  And it's hard! lol.  But in the end there is a much deeper sense of satisfation and joy for both of us.  After all, the best things in life are always the things you really have to work for.



_____________________________

"Fall if you must fall. But if you are going to fall, fall hard and fall completely. It is so much better than some suspended animation which can never tell you anything about your life."

(in reply to JustDarkness)
Profile   Post #: 60
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