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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 1:41:26 PM

Elegant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

I see..but it propably did the opposite...mentioning it..then when you wouldn't have put the place holder..lol
you can have my helmet when it escalates :P

I'm game for fun. grin

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 1:43:09 PM

JustDarkness

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haha ok

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 1:55:41 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Old Guard refers to a respectful leather lifestyle that includes manners, protocol and strictly defined roles unlike the “new age” of undefined, unaware, uninformed and impolite populace that is currently infiltrating the BDSM scene.

I disagree.

The "Old Guard" is a time-specific period in gay leather culture. If you aren't gay and you weren't a veteran of WWII I can't consider you "Old Guard".

You may have learned from the "Old Guard" or respect some of the things they did and try to incorporate them into your own life but I think it is disrespectful to those men to claim standing with them.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 1:58:34 PM

JustDarkness

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quote:

If you aren't gay and you weren't a veteran of WWII I can't consider you "Old Guard".

if everything stops afther the founders died...then we wouldn't have much left in the world

ps
Elegant get your helmet ;)

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/20/2008 1:59:11 PM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 2:09:41 PM

Rover

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Fast Reply to no one in particular....

As others have noted before me, "Old Guard" refers to a people in time... much like referring to "medieval". It does not refer to some universal protocol of the time, most often portrayed in the most fantastical and admirable terms possible (more strict, more honorable, more of anything one might consider "better" than today).

Anyone that is not gay, not a former WWII serviceman, not overly fixated upon "uniform", not engaged in a community hierarchy predicated upon accomplishment... is simply not "Old Guard". So if you're not gay and eighty-five years old, I and a whole lotta other people are just gonna laugh at you if you claim to *be* "Old Guard" (and you'll deserve it).

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 2:14:58 PM

JustDarkness

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just curious
did they call themselfs Old Guard then also?
I guess Old Guard doesn't excist anymore if they were motocyclers from WW2.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 2:22:38 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

just curious
did they call themselfs Old Guard then also?
I guess Old Guard doesn't excist anymore if they were motocyclers from WW2.

"Old Guard" was coined as a derogatory term in the mid 1970's as what we now call organized BDSM (the acronym not having been created then) was transitioning from being exclusively gay to pansexual, from an exclusive armed forces background to one that accepted all backgrounds, from an exclusive hierarchy of achievement to one more democratic.... basically... when it transitioned from being exclusive to being inclusive. The "New Guard" at the time considered their inclusiveness to be "superior" to the exclusivity of the "Old Guard".

When it was created, the term "Old Guard" was the functional equivalent of calling someone a dinosaur... telling them that their time had passed and they were on the verge of extinction.

They never called themselves "Old Guard" just as folks in the middle ages didn't call themselves "medieval".

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/20/2008 2:24:16 PM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 2:30:49 PM

JustDarkness

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thank you
yes I read that too

http://www.leatherviews.com/kinkyinfo/9930.htm

but when I read about them..there is nothing that says you can't be Old Guard. It just means living like they do.
(Although some call it New Guard..because rules etc changed)
Ofcourse..you will never be a "original one".

If none of the originals can answer us anymore..it will stay a riddle for ever.

http://www.vanilla-not.com/reallife/oldguard.html
(some essays about them, just nice to read)

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/20/2008 2:31:29 PM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 2:37:45 PM

JustDarkness

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this essay...is interesting...more or less the author having the discussion we have
http://www.iron-rose.com/IR/docs/old_guard.htm

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 3:47:23 PM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

but when I read about them..there is nothing that says you can't be Old Guard. It just means living like they do.

And that brings us back to the meat of the issue... how did they live? What does it mean to *live* or *be* "Old Guard"? I've read more than most, less than others on the topic. I'm a member of the Leather Archives & Museum and have spoken directly to historians who have written about the era. Nowhere can you find what distinguished them from anyone else other than they were exclusively gay, exclusively armed forces veterans, and maintained their armed forces hierarchy and love of "uniform" (though the way this was expressed differed from place to place).

Remember, this was pre-internet. It was before people traveled across country with any frequency, or even across state. The protocols associated with *being* Old Guard" in one town were different from what it meant in the next town... just like today were there is no one set of protocols for what it means to *be* BDSM. It differs from person to person, and group to group.

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 6:10:01 PM

Rogue86

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I would say that there is a difference between Old Guard and those who merely claim Old Guard lineage. Much like pagans who claim familial ties to Old World knowledge in an attempt to gather prestige and respect (and lend credence to their disrespect of others as 'legitimate'.) In my travels I have met a number of Old Guard gay leathermen who still adhere to a guild-like system of 'earning' their leathers through experience and training over time. Most did not refer to themselves as 'Old Guard'. Those who were original Old Guard 'back in the day' recognize that even then there were differences in protocol depending on what part of the country you were from. In any case, I found these men to be honorable, respectful, and proud of their accomplishment within that construct. I have met the other kind as well, and a lot more often I'm afraid. It makes me sad to hear the disdain in many of these posts for what was originally a completely legitimate and trailblazing form of wiitwd.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 7:19:58 PM

masterlink65

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also many old guard ways were passed on to the next generation(s), there is also modified guard, who went on to reform some pf the protocols etc. from these elders

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 8:22:49 PM

spankablemilf

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Lucky you always seem to have all the right links ready for each question asked. Thank You for that service :)

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1052801/mpage_1/key_old%252Cguard/tm.htm#1052921
What exactly IS old guard?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_558761/mpage_1/key_old%252Cguard/tm.htm#559207
Old Guard- who are these people?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_486010/mpage_1/key_old%252Cguard/tm.htm#486045
Old Guard (4)

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=109&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#109
The term "old guard"

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=8377&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#8377
Old Guard Myth or Not

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=20268&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#20268
old guard???

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=26450&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#26450
old guard?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=62276&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#62276
Old guard...New guard...what guard?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=63736&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#63736
old guard vs old school

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=79737&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#79737
Old Guard (2)

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=83839&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#83839
Old Guard Master

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=88818&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#88818
Old Guard? (5)

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=150042&mpage=1&key=old%2Cguard&#150042
Old Guard (3)

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/20/2008 10:54:44 PM

zakkan

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Its sad. In 50 years we will be the (new) Old Guard...

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 2:00:37 AM

JustDarkness

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Ok I agree with your points.
But if no one knows how they lived..and we use that a reason..we can't neither say..no one is not living liek them..and therefor not be...Old Guard.
When you read the essays...it just says they were a kind of rebels for their time. And people still are.

Are christians not christians..because we don't know exactly how Jesus lived?
Ofcourse..their way of living changed too...because time changes...still..we call it that.

We have hiphop and we have old school hiphop....etc etc.

But...very interesting to read about them.
Gonna read soem more..if I can find it.
Thank you for your thoughts and input.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/21/2008 2:04:09 AM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 4:23:29 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

But if no one knows how they lived..and we use that a reason..we can't neither say..no one is not living liek them..and therefor not be...Old Guard.

But we do know how they lived... it's documented fact. They just don't live in the manner modern day "Old Guard" adherents claim they did. What does not exist (beyond what has already been stated) is some set of "Old Guard" protocols. That's pure fantasy. Just ask them to direct you to where these protocols can be found... they have no answer.

So when I come across someone who claims to be adhering to "Old Guard" protocols that never did exist, it's obvious to me that they don't know what they're talking about. Now that could be the innocent repeating of a fib told to them, or it could be that they're helping to create fantasy and portray it as reality (ie: they're complicit in a lie).

Further information from legitimate sources (Joseph Bean, Gayle Rubin, Guy Baldwin, Jack Rinella, Jay Wiseman, etc.) should cure those who speak from ignorance. But it has been my experience that the vast majority of folks claiming adherence to "Old Guard" protocols or principles today do not wish to be cured (actually go out of their way not to be informed), and I'm forced to conclude that they fall into the second category (ie: they're liars).

Of course, everyone is free to come to their own conclusions.

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 5:10:49 AM

MsAuthoritarian

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A great article for those interested….

The Old Guard
The History of Leather Traditions
By Guy Baldwin, M.S., author of The Ties That Bind

~Ms

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 5:33:10 AM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

Very few men maintained full compliance with all these rules all the time, and some, flatly refused to follow rules they personally objected to. But, to be included one was expected to follow at least most of these rules most of the time. Also, confusingly, there was some variation in some of the rules depending on what city you happened to be in at the time. The list above is not complete although it conveys the sense of the style

So, very few followed these rules and other cities had other rules so what exactly was all this anyway? I don't say this to be disrespectul but simply to take them off the rather heavenly pedestal they tend to get placed on.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 5:40:51 AM

ThundersCry

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Can`t you see...its just a fantasy

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 5:56:12 AM

Rever