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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 10:36:51 AM

JustDarkness

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lol something funny on the subject... to relax
http://www.madoc.us/oldguard.shtml

and some serious, but nice to read.
http://www.madoc.us/sacredcows.shtml
http://www.madoc.us/stewards.shtml
http://www.madoc.us/radsex.shtml (this is an interesting one...)
http://www.evilmonk.org/a/oldguard.cfm (and this one too / The Old Guard History, Origins and Traditions by Guy Baldwin M.S.)

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/21/2008 10:46:22 AM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 11:07:07 AM

Rover

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I can only hope that when you read these fine articles (and reprints of speeches) that you'll recognize the common themes. Exclusive vs. inclusive. Gay vs. pansexual. Military vs. non-military. The same things I've been saying right along (because I didn't come up with this on my own, I read these articles and more... I am merely restating what other, more informed and reliable, sources have said).

I think the line that best sums up the topic was written by Guy Baldwin:

"...Old Guard customs were no where nearly as numerous or elaborated as today’s protocols have become in some parts of the nation…."

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 11:12:04 AM

JustDarkness

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Yes they are indeed lovely articles to read...and I have seen the common themes.
It is nice to dive in some new things.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 6:40:01 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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I love when people try to go against TammyJo and Rover in this topic, I learn so much :)

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/21/2008 8:22:11 PM

Rover

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You're either easily amused, or a glutton for punishment. Or both.

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/22/2008 12:48:35 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I love when people try to go against TammyJo and Rover in this topic, I learn so much :)

it is not about trying...it is about doing :P
and it is very interesting subject
most important...I am not against Rover or TammyJo. I do read their posting with interest, I just have a different opinion.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/22/2008 12:52:00 AM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/22/2008 1:04:12 AM

ResidentSadist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Old Guard refers to a respectful leather lifestyle that includes manners, protocol and strictly defined roles unlike the “new age” of undefined, unaware, uninformed and impolite populace that is currently infiltrating the BDSM scene.

Did that definition sound just a tiny bit biased do you think? LMAO

Personally, I was thinking that it sounded uninformed and revisionist. But that is just me.

John

John, it isn’t just you. This old dinosaur freely admits to being a revisionist and advocate of the old practices, even though they make me antiquated and separate me from the current new age doctrines.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/22/2008 5:26:26 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Old Guard refers to a respectful leather lifestyle that includes manners, protocol and strictly defined roles unlike the “new age” of undefined, unaware, uninformed and impolite populace that is currently infiltrating the BDSM scene.

Did that definition sound just a tiny bit biased do you think? LMAO

Personally, I was thinking that it sounded uninformed and revisionist. But that is just me.

John

John, it isn’t just you. This old dinosaur freely admits to being a revisionist and advocate of the old practices, even though they make me antiquated and separate me from the current new age doctrines.

This entire thread has been devoted to the fact that there were precious few general themes within (what we now call) the "Old Guard".

Are you gay?
Are you former military?
Does your social community place great emphasis upon dress?
Does this community have a hierarchy based upon achievement?

If you can answer yes to each of those questions, then you're engaged in "the old practices". If not, then you're engaged in your own new age doctrine.

Which is it?

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/22/2008 8:44:03 AM

Wyrd

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There were "old guard" groups with protocols similar to what we see today, and there were "old guard" groups with little or no protocol beyond the basics we find common in many ex-military groups. This is no different than today where there is no universal protocol in place even within a single community like Leather. You will find commonalities, but nothing universal. I only got to meet a few of what we now call the "old guard" and the ones I met did have an established protocol, and maybe they were in the minority, having only met a handful I don't have enough information to make a definitive statement, I doubt many of us alive today have enough information to do so. I know I spent some of my formative time with "old guard" members, as well as with the man who took me under his wing who was brought in by those same members.

As small a group as the "old guard" was, they had a huge variance from one group to the next, the commonalities are simple, but each group really has to be looked at as a unique entity.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/26/2008 5:29:14 AM

Nefric

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Thanks for the link I found a lot of useful material on that site.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/26/2008 9:22:50 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

I was looking for material on the subject. It is very interesting..because for their time..it was something special what they did.
I guess they just lived their life...and didn't think about noting it down. (because it was forbidden....looked down at...they were gay, a big sin.)
So later some people tried to capture their thoughts in documentation...as with many things. Propably loosing the real details, but still valuable.

If you have some interesting links on the subject..I would love to read them.

It more has to do with the fact that these were small groups and you learned by doing not by studying written materials. People qualified as oral historians didn't get interested in these topics until most of the "Old Guard" members (it's nice short-hand I'm using but I don't believe there was a single "Old Guard" were dead or dying.

The few oral histories and run information and club information has been collected, ask Rover, he works for the Archives and might be able to get you in to look at things.

As historian now we just have to wait for more oral histories to be taken and more materials to be found. Until then we can only say what Rover and I have been saying. Any other claims go beyond the evidence and possibly into fiction.

I love fiction, I have 7 fiction books published, but I never claim they are the same as my historical articles and research.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 10/26/2008 9:24:21 AM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/26/2008 9:33:57 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

The few oral histories and run information and club information has been collected, ask Rover, he works for the Archives and might be able to get you in to look at things.

Just for the record, I don't work for the LA&M and have never made that claim.

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/27/2008 9:38:40 AM

flutter17

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Oooo ! Ouch ! <zing> Very true - I'm agreeing with you ! They are rather an unschooled bunch.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 10/28/2008 9:20:32 AM

masterlink65

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alot of this did not get documented, more than likely for the same reason alot of activity within outlaw motorcycle clubs is not known, at the time, the close community was not intersted in documenting their secret activity. i have known in the past 2 people who were WWII vets, they were part of the scene. some of the info was passed on to me and others, yes, they were gay, yes they had rules. written rules,,, no, same rules from city to city,,,, no. even the experts on this subject no very little, if you are not gay, and not into parade dress and protocol, this subject is of little concern.

people seem to forget, pansexual has come into most communities as of late. i remember a time when females and staights, did not intermingle with the gay leather community.

i do know people on both sides of the fence, and there are many differences still between the gay leather community and the straight community.

i am not claiming to be old guard, modified guard, or anything other.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 11/1/2008 7:08:11 PM

auburnvixen

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What makes me laugh is when straight people today claim to be "Old Guard" to puff themselves up, but have no idea of what they speak. For example, I met a woman a few years ago who ripped me a new one because my then-Master, to whom I was collared, was not at a private play party where I, wearing his collar, encountered her. This self-styled "Old Guard Mistress" (ha ha) demanded to know how I would dare to wear a collar to the party if I didn't have a Master (her assumption). She soon found out that I am submissive only to men

Fortunately, I had several friends who actually would have qualified as Old Guard leathermen (ex-military, had gone through all the hierarchies and protocols of the gay leather community, etc.), so I knew just how full of shit she was. I imagine she had other victims who didn't fare so well.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 11/2/2008 5:41:37 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

I was looking for material on the subject. It is very interesting..because for their time..it was something special what they did.
I guess they just lived their life...and didn't think about noting it down. (because it was forbidden....looked down at...they were gay, a big sin.)
So later some people tried to capture their thoughts in documentation...as with many things. Propably loosing the real details, but still valuable.

You're forgetting the most important part of why they didn't write anything down, it was illegal to be homosexual. So writing stuff down could get you arrested.

Very few bank robbers keep a record of what bank they robbed and when, or which they propose to rob next. It would get you thrown in jail.

In NYC, Stonewall and the subsequent changing of the law wasn't until 1969 which means that from 45 when the war ended, until 69 or 70 when the law changed, written documentation of homosexual activities would get you a place in jail if seized.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 11/2/2008 5:48:09 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

I was looking for material on the subject. It is very interesting..because for their time..it was something special what they did.
I guess they just lived their life...and didn't think about noting it down. (because it was forbidden....looked down at...they were gay, a big sin.)
So later some people tried to capture their thoughts in documentation...as with many things. Propably loosing the real details, but still valuable.

You're forgetting the most important part of why they didn't write anything down, it was illegal to be homosexual. So writing stuff down could get you arrested.

Very few bank robbers keep a record of what bank they robbed and when, or which they propose to rob next. It would get you thrown in jail.

In NYC, Stonewall and the subsequent changing of the law wasn't until 1969 which means that from 45 when the war ended, until 69 or 70 when the law changed, written documentation of homosexual activities would get you a place in jail if seized.

It was precisely this issue that helped to create the need for organized BDSM. Many states did not allow gay men into bars under the pretense that they were only there to solicit gay prostitution. And they were not allowed to congregate amongst themselves in groups larger than four or five (or some other silly, arbitrary number).

So they needed a place of their own. A place where they could socialize without being obvious to society or the authorities. And it just so happened that there was this growing American fascination with the motorcycle, which gave them the perfect pretense.... biker clubs.

John

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RE: Old Gaurd - 11/2/2008 7:25:12 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

The few oral histories and run information and club information has been collected, ask Rover, he works for the Archives and might be able to get you in to look at things.

Just for the record, I don't work for the LA&M and have never made that claim.

John

Oh, I thought earlier you said you did.... Sorry.

Well that is a good place to start for anyone who wants to learn about the history of what we now call BDSM. For those of us writing or working in group, please consider donating copies of your materials to the LA&M so they can continue to keep records and make it easier for future generations to have these sorts of discussions.

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RE: Old Gaurd - 11/2/2008 7:57:07 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
(because it was forbidden....looked down at...they were gay, a big sin.)

You're forgetting the most important part of why they didn't write anything down, it was illegal to be homosexual. So writing stuff down could get you arrested.

don't think I forgot ;) ..but used other words

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/2/2008 7:58:03 AM >

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RE: Old Gaurd - 11/9/2008 12:42:17 PM

masterlink65

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even the experts admit this was gay exclusive. things didnt get written down probably for the same reason they didnt get remembered very well. from what i have seen and experienced, i am not sure how much can be remembered about who earned what leather, when everyone was partying as hard as they were.

the man i had earned my first harness from was an exception to this, as i am sure there are others. he did not drink. he was very encouraging, creative and helpful in my growth, and learning. as far as it being recorded in the precious archives, well ,,,,, its not. do i claim to be old guard,,,,, no , i do not.

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