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RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 11:34:51 AM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

Much of this I agree with Cali ... and very well said on those counts.

What about people who post ... "What do you all think of X .... I think blah blah and blah about X ... How about you?" ..

People personalize "X" as it relates to them and respond in kind. If I'm writing about something that is perfectly fine for me and lots of others, but some people read it and to them it signifies disrespect, abuse, carelessness, etc., they are going to feel compelled to speak up about it. Human dynamic does not guarantee politeness in doing so, either.

I might say, for example, that my former Master peed on me all the time. Well, I happened to love it when he did. Other people love engaging in that activity, too. But Sally Slave over there may read it and think, "Oh the horror! I can't imagine being peed on. Being peed on communicates to me that I am trash, uncared for, worthless, etc...therefore, any dominant who pees on his slave MUST think that way of her!"

More often than not, people relate to things from their own personal perspective rather than from a broader perspective. Open minds are hard to hang onto sometimes. So, even though Sally Slave could have simply addressed whatever question/comment was at hand about being peed on (maybe the question was "I have an open wound...would urine antagonize it when my Master pees on me?), she could not see past her emotions that told her being peed on is the worst thing in the world. Therefore, that's all she can comment on, which has nothing to do with whether or not urine will infect an open wound. In fact, it derails the conversation completely, which is actually extremely selfish, but she's too horrified by the idea of being peed on to see it. I think that's the reason behind most of what you're asking about.

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Post #: 41

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 11:45:54 AM

subtee

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Joined: 7/26/2007
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Hi softness;

I am guilty of usually not directly answering the kink or the kinkster, but posting sarcastic or ironic or inane responses. Usually I'm trying to be funny, even if it's not achieved. I admit it's also not helpful, but this is a message board, not thesis defense. Dr. Phil does it too sometimes.

What chaps my ass* are the responses that come from a post in which the kinkster asks, "Do you and your master [mash potatoes on tuesdays using only single tails and tuberous insults]?" Inevitably, about 8 posters will respond with, "Some do and some don't. There is no right or wrong."

How is that at all helpful?

*Okay, it doesn't "chap my ass," I just find it kind of annoying.

< Message edited by subtee -- 10/21/2008 11:46:28 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 12:15:06 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Hi softness;

I am guilty of usually not directly answering the kink or the kinkster, but posting sarcastic or ironic or inane responses. Usually I'm trying to be funny, even if it's not achieved. I admit it's also not helpful, but this is a message board, not thesis defense. Dr. Phil does it too sometimes.

What chaps my ass* are the responses that come from a post in which the kinkster asks, "Do you and your master [mash potatoes on tuesdays using only single tails and tuberous insults]?" Inevitably, about 8 posters will respond with, "Some do and some don't. There is no right or wrong."

How is that at all helpful?

*Okay, it doesn't "chap my ass," I just find it kind of annoying.

People say that because anything else...stating that you personally find something wrong or sickening or whatever about another's form of practice of BDSM and/or D/s without qualifying it is seen as expressing "one true way". I've used this example before and I'll use it again...to me, sticking a loaded gun in a submissive's mouth is just plain wrong. My belief. I don't see the sense in taking that kind of chance. Am I saying with that statement that MY way is the "one true way"? No...there are hundreds of ways to incorporate D/s and BDSM into your life without doing something that strikes a majority of people as stupid and/or rendered meaningless because of the all-too-probable likelihood of danger. But because I've stated that it strikes me as wrong and stupid and etc., then I have been accused of advocating one-true wayism. ~shrugs~ So now, I sometimes add in the occasional statement that a couple has to do what works for them before I state my opinion on the subject. Doesn't always save me from being "snarked at" but it has cut it down. Ironic in that my opinion remains the same...

But I've reached the point where I wonder sometimes if even the statement "it is what works for the couple" carries meaning because so often, one person in the couple is determined to go at cross-grains to what they agreed to, no matter the side of the slash they are on, when they started and communication and the dynamic established goes out the window.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 43

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 2:50:44 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

What chaps my ass* are the responses that come from a post in which the kinkster asks, "Do you and your master [mash potatoes on tuesdays using only single tails and tuberous insults]?" Inevitably, about 8 posters will respond with, "Some do and some don't. There is no right or wrong."

I think people, myself included, post "some do, some don't" to the questions such as "Do Masters do ______ ?" with a mindset that if you're a master/sub/slave/dom/yadda-yadda then you must follow some set protocol. My intention behind posting "some do, some don't" is to let people know there is no universal way that things have to be. In other words, do what is right for you, rather than living according to a label description. I usually try to elaborate further when I post those answers, but I probably don't always.

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Post #: 44

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 4:29:12 PM

subtee

Posts: 5133
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

What chaps my ass* are the responses that come from a post in which the kinkster asks, "Do you and your master [mash potatoes on tuesdays using only single tails and tuberous insults]?" Inevitably, about 8 posters will respond with, "Some do and some don't. There is no right or wrong."

I think people, myself included, post "some do, some don't" to the questions such as "Do Masters do ______ ?" with a mindset that if you're a master/sub/slave/dom/yadda-yadda then you must follow some set protocol. My intention behind posting "some do, some don't" is to let people know there is no universal way that things have to be. In other words, do what is right for you, rather than living according to a label description. I usually try to elaborate further when I post those answers, but I probably don't always.

I think the question itself implies an understanding of "there is no one true way." When a poster is asking if others' D/s involves [whatever], the implied is that he or she understands it's not universal, but is just looking for others' input. Next thing ya know, it's "what might be right for you might not be right for someone else"..."figure it out with your Dom/sub"..."why don't you ask (Him/her)"...and the ever present, "Some do, some don't. There is no one 'twue' way." Quite dismissive, it seems to me. But like I said, I'm a smart ass, and that's not helpful at all.

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Post #: 45

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 6:35:48 PM

NihilusZero

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Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

This next part is probably going to peeve a number of people, but at this point, I still feel that regardless of it being torch-bait, it bears being said... that the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM are -much- more closed-minded and much more enmeshed in the 'safe', canalized, mainstream culture and much more embracing of the 'police state' than I would have expected.

So, this important point in your mind... the thing that will likely peeve people off but needs to be said anyway is, Everyone who doesn't agree with Calla is an ignorant savage. I'm not really sure why you felt it was so important to say that, but yes, it probably will piss people off, myself among them. The real issue is that people OTHER than you also have integrity and so have the courage of their convictions which differ from yours. And while I am sure that you find it emotionally comforting to be so incredibly judgmental, the real truth is that just because someone disagrees with you does not make them either stupid or a member of "the police state". This is the societal equivalent of kicking the soda machine.

I didn't get this from her statements at all. If I understand her correctly (which is aided by personal discussions we've had), her views are, ironically, an expression of passive exasperation about the lack of tolerance evident in (at least to me) the online communities (I've seen this not just here but also on other fetish-oriented discussion sites).

I think the words "the individuals comprising the public face of BDSM" may have been written in terms of a wide enough description that some people might be prone to presume themselves among the conglomerate she's describing...but I think that's a jump made by the reader.

Other threads dealing with the sort of issues she refers to have popped up in recent weeks: the fine line between expecting another to respect our privacy versus expecting another to act as a good samaritan (you allude to this with the comments about your neighbors and the hypothetical actions you'd expect/wish from them concerning some possible interpretative danger to your wife).

But, the danger with holding others to a sense of "integrity" as you put it, is that it doesn't take into consideration that every individual's concept of integrity will be bound and fastened to their personal biases. Before long, we have part-time employees at a photo development stores sending in pictures of a child and her father playing in the shower to the local police authorities under the guise of being concerned about child pornography...an example of an act that is begun with the presumption of integrity and concern, but which is, fundamentally, a short-sighted reaction born of ignorance (and which can cause irreperable damage).

And, those sort of reactions run the gamut back to the beginning of what this very thread is addressing.

If pointing out hypocrisy and writing about a displeasure in how prolific it can become in a community that, because of its fringe nature, one would hope for at least a small bit of respite from...if that conveys some sort of elitism that appears to denounce others as 'ignorant savages', I may not be far behind. "Savage" is an unnecessary noun to add, but there are certainly people that, by virtue of their words and actions, can quite capably qualify for the "ignorant" adjective. That a person saying so may make themselves a pariah of a certain sort of political correctness does not disqualify the fact, however.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 10/21/2008 6:40:03 PM >

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(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 46

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 7:36:46 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Quite dismissive, it seems to me. But like I said, I'm a smart ass, and that's not helpful at all.

Being a smart ass is not dismissive?

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(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 47

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 7:53:23 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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Because frequently there is no way to separate them. In the case of your thread, many posters didn't understand how you procured other women for him when you were so far apart that they weren't women you knew. How else to understand unless to ask specifically how it worked. Some point last year there was a discussion of poly where I wound up asking KOM how the three of them slept together, meaning sleep. I couldn't figure out how it worked; fighting over pillows, one hot and two cold, etc. Without focusing on how it specifically worked out, I still couldn't understand it.

In some cases, the problem is that if there is moral ambiguity in the kink, or worse lines that should not have been crossed, there is no way to say "you're okay, even though you are doing evil things". Sometimes what a person does, truly reflects how we think of them.

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Post #: 48

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/21/2008 8:00:18 PM

marieToo

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Eh, I think it's just easier for people to relate to another person and their circumstances rather to a topic in general.

The procurement thing is a bad example because that's a topic that people just go apeshit on, no matter how it's presented.

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Post #: 49

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 1:00:27 AM

JustDarkness

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You know what is weird about all the posts. You hardly see people saying "yes you have a good point. I never thought of that. Perhaps I have to rethink my view". Instead..we just kill eachother..and the posts get longer and longer.
The longer the post..the more some one wants to make his/her point (often..at least)

And also when some one says..." Ok..we won't agree, lets give it a rest ". One of them keeps pushing...till everything starts over again.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 10/22/2008 1:02:06 AM >

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 50

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 6:41:46 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

You know what is weird about all the posts. You hardly see people saying "yes you have a good point. I never thought of that. Perhaps I have to rethink my view". Instead..we just kill eachother..and the posts get longer and longer.
The longer the post..the more some one wants to make his/her point (often..at least)

And also when some one says..." Ok..we won't agree, lets give it a rest ". One of them keeps pushing...till everything starts over again.

In our house, this is what we call the 'agree to disagree point' -- that point at which it's pretty clear that people's minds aren't going to change, no matter how many arguments are levied, and we have to decide whether we're going to let that injure what we have, or whether we can just let it go. We've been fortunate, I think -- our household has been really good about being able to accept the widely divergent opinions carried by its members and still thrive. There is a measure of yielding required to make 'agree to disagree' work, though. It takes being able to concede that someone else's opinion is worthy of at least as much consideration as one's own -- enough so that the holders of those divergent opinions can still love one another and co-exist in the same environment without the difference in opinion killing some of the affection between them.

On the boards, it's a different environment. We don't tend to have such intimate, caring relationships with the people here, -and- the purpose of the boards is inclined towards discussion and even debate... so there isn't as much incentive to just let a good argument slide. For many of us, we don't really have an emotional attachment to most of the people that we tend to argue with, so the thing that takes precedence is that feeling of righteous indignation at not being understood and our rationale being ignored.

It isn't just this board that incites that kind of behavior -- it is endemic of discussion boards and lists of all sorts. I think that the very nature of the medium encourages the 'bulldog' philosophy of discussion... grab at the thread with the teeth of one's argument, lock on, and then hold on come hell or high water until they have to kill us to get us to let go.

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Post #: 51

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 7:16:31 AM

leadership527

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quote:

In some cases, the problem is that if there is moral ambiguity in the kink, or worse lines that should not have been crossed, there is no way to say "you're okay, even though you are doing evil things". Sometimes what a person does, truly reflects how we think of them.

*nods* in the culture of inclusion and assumed tolerance that is BDSM nowadays, that's not a very popular thought. But yes, at some point, something that someone else does violates another person's ethical system sufficiently that it is no longer simply "something I wouldn't do". Then it becomes, "something that is evil that no good person does". And at that point, you're right, there's no way to say "you're OK" anymore. It was fascinating reading some of John's backstory on the development of BDSM and finding out that this whole tolerance and inclusivity thing is a newer development and perhaps not a good one.

As I like to say, if my neighbor's kink was eating babies in their backyard, I would pretty definitely NOT be ok with that. And I wouldn't be any more OK if they did it in the privacy of their bedroom. Of course, the discussion only really gets interesting in the less extreme cases. OK, we can probably all agree that no matter how many thrills the neighbor couple gets from making nerve gas, it's not ok that they do it. But where is the line? That's the rub.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 52

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 7:17:17 AM

scarlethiney

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I think often people look at the OP profile to possibly get a better feel for the person and find in this profile something that they feel contradicts the posters comments or something that rubs them the wrong way and then feelings become colored by what they perceived in the profile. The post often then becomes as you stated about the OP and not the comments or questions the OP had.

Unfortunately "We don't see things as they are. We see them as *we*- are." (Talmud)

I enjoy your posts softness!

scarlet

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Post #: 53

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 7:40:20 AM

CatdeMedici

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Because sadly we are human beings who have become ingrained with the belief, that I am only good when I demean another--regardless of the issues, content, topic--take a look at the current election. To belittle another is to raise one above---or so we have come to practice.

I rest My case.

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Post #: 54

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 10:11:53 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Quite dismissive, it seems to me. But like I said, I'm a smart ass, and that's not helpful at all.

Being a smart ass is not dismissive?

This was the point in my first post and part of my sentence you quote above - I admitted it twice.

So for what purpose have you reiterated it? Or where you just providing a perfect example of the OP's observations?

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Don't believe everything you think...

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Post #: 55

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 10:32:33 AM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

We don't tend to have such intimate, caring relationships with the people here]

thats is a good point...indeed

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 56

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 11:19:58 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

The procurement thing is a bad example because that's a topic that people just go apeshit on, no matter how it's presented.

That is actually why it is a good example .... because people went ape shit at me and DV ... in the same way I have watched them go ape shit at other kinksters .. very few people were able to cooly and objectively give their opinion about procurement as a kink, granted some did, and granted many people passed comment about procuring by passing judgement on me and DV... the thread was overflowing with commentary about the nature of our relationship and virtually barren of commentary on procurement as a kink.

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Post #: 57

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 11:34:45 AM

WhiplashSmile2

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OK, I remember a thread started up about "Anal Ice Hooks", now this was something that was totally new to me.   Just when I thought I had heard or damn near had thought of everything.

Like many people I questioned how bright and safe of an idea it is to insert anal hooks made of ice up somebody's ass.   I was thinking to myself, wow, is this thread for real, or somebody coming onto CM making a post to cause a stir.

However, I also had a sincere and open mind as to where this person got the idea, and also ask about the safety issues involved.   OK, I admit I was somewhat snarky at the time, however I also was expressing a sincere interest in the thread. Just for my own personal knowledge of this topic.

Me inserting an anal hook of ice, is not something on my list of things to do.

There are moments when I have been a little snarky. I admit if an OP comes off sounding like somebody if totally full of themselves and they sound Naracisstic, I'm a real smart ass in my response to the thread.   Dare I admit it to, I sort of enjoy bashing, humilating or being snarky to certain types of people.

However, I'm being honest in what I'm expressing to them, that they are too full of themselves for their own good. Perhaps it might make them stop for a moment and rethink things or see something about themselves that ain't pretty.   However, I am following the DO unto others as I would have done unto me rule.   Yes, I would expect somebody to hault me in my own tracks at times.

So, am I being a smart-ass with or without some form of ethics involved. Perhaps I should be a polite guy and sit in the corner and not express my honest reactions at times. Damn, being assertive can be a bitch at times compared to being passive.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 58

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/22/2008 1:40:44 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Wow Whiplash... you lost it on anal ice hooks?? Man, you need to get out more. I didn't really lose it until the thread on spinal taps *laughs*.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

Post #: 59

RE: The Kink and not the Kinkster - 10/24/2008 2:16:16 PM

alianora

Posts: 38
Status: offline

Why do we focus on the kinkster and not the kink?

As individuals, almost everything that we do is personal by nature; it’s very hard to remain objective about something if we have a very strong, personal, objection to an activity mentioned. Because of that, we often ignore the activity and instead focus instead on the person asking about the activity. I know, that for myself, when something is discussed that clashes with my own, personal morals or ethics; that I become focused on the person and not the actual discussion. It’s second nature to me to do so; attack the person(s) who threaten my own thoughts; when I should instead be focused on the real reason for my offense.

I am not saying that everyone reacts in this manner; only that I have observed this behavior in myself. Because of that, I often do not respond immediately when I come across a message board thread that somehow causes me to automatically want to attack the poster. Instead, I try to think past the first reaction and attempt to refocus on the real questions asked. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I do not.

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 60

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