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Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 7:12:51 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Senator Obama has been talking about the ever
increasing violence in Afghanistan for a long time.
 
I was wondering why there is not a lot more front page coverage
or more in depth coverage on the nightly news?

I saw a piece last night on 60 minutes that was very informative,
yet very disturbing at the same time.
The systematic attacks on American troops appears to be at an all time high
and rapidly getting worse.   Here is a very long clip from last night's show,
I was lucky to find it, it is a bit long, but I think worth viewing.
 
 Combat In Afghanistan Video - CBSNews.com

I can understand many people don't have the time or inclination to listen to this long video,
here is a very short blurb.

Afghanistan Conflict Monitor: 2008 Afghanistan's "Worst Year": Minister

The situation greatly disturbs me, and I am so glad that Senator Obama
continues to express his concern's by stating that he plans to focus
and address the situation in Afghanastan.

Okay, I am looking for your thoughts, idea's and opinions on the ever increasing
violence and attacks on US troops in Afghanastan.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/20/2008 7:34:12 PM >

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 9:10:49 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		.
I suppose, the Afghani rebel forces do have access to world media, and are aware of what is happening in the USA, the crunch, the elections etc. Perhaps seeing as there are problems in the west, they are doubling their attacks to cause bad morale in the USA forces, something which they know will be reported back to the people of the USA in an important time as election for a new leader. They will of course in days, weeks to come, observe the resultant of their actions by how they see  what is happening in world media.

Maybe it is they think they can win by causing upset in the USA by attacking USA forces in a vicious assault.

Afghanis, are not just goat herders with guns, they are an efficient and brave fighting force, trained by the west in the time that Russia was attempting residence. They are also quite possibly the descendants of Alexander the great's armies.

The book, ;  ''Under a Sickle Moon, A Journey through Afghanistan'', by Peregrine Hodson is a good book and tells well of what sort of people the Afghanis are, from the time they were fighting the Russians, a people not to be underestimated.




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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 9:20:48 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia



The situation greatly disturbs me, and I am so glad that Senator Obama
continues to express his concern's by stating that he plans to focus
and address the situation in Afghanastan.

Okay, I am looking for your thoughts, idea's and opinions on the ever increasing
violence and attacks on US troops in Afghanastan.



          Mia, Senator Obama's statements about Afghanistan scare the crap out of me.  I'm afraid he is going to use the conflict there to prove he can be "tough" on national defense, and, will spend tens of thousands of lives trying to fit a square ideology into an inconveniently round reality.  There is no victory there.

           I'm also much bothered by his apparent disconnect on the psychological impact of our perceived defeat in Iraq (and it will be perceived that way, by his stated goals) on the will to fight among the Taliban, and tribesmen fitted with that label.

        The increasing violence?  We ain't seen nothin yet. 

         

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 9:20:54 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you for posting Aneirin, I didn't think anyone would.
 
I have been interested in the Afghani for some time.
When you look at them on tape, I can tell they are not going
to be as easy to deal with as the Iraqians.
They are seriously no joke.

I agree with Senator Obama, that we should have had our eyes fixed
on Afghanastan a bit more closely.

Rich? I just read your post.
You stated there is NO victory in Afghanastan?
Is there A victory ever in Iraq?

I partially agree with you on the situation in Afghanastan.
Either we are going to fight hard in Afghanastan or we need to pack up and leave.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/20/2008 9:24:54 PM >

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 10:06:28 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Afghanistan is where empires go to die, Mia.  We don't even have a supply line.

      Iraq is ours.  If it takes a really nasty colonel to stabilize it while we march back out, instead of running, so be it, but we cannot run away from the fight we started.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 10:11:16 PM   
NormalOutside


Posts: 622
Joined: 1/8/2008
Status: offline 		You CAN run away from a fight.  If you go and beat the shit out of a country, occupy them, steal their stuff, kill their civilians, and destroy their police, army, and government..... the only thing you CAN do at that point is run away and go home in shame.  The US's war of terror is a disgrace to all humanity.  I'm ashamed to be from a country bordering the US.

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 10:12:49 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    Afghanistan is where empires go to die, Mia.  We don't even have a supply line.

What a deeply profound statement!  I am serious, that is deep, Rich.  I will remember this 1 line for a long time.

    Iraq is ours.  If it takes a really nasty colonel to stabilize it while we march back out, instead of running, so be it, but we cannot run away from the fight we started.


Sad to say, I somewhat agree.
I guess we will be there for the next 100 years or so.
Thank you for giving me food for thought.
I like you Rich, even though you are a damn Republican!


< Message edited by MzMia -- 10/20/2008 10:14:57 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/20/2008 10:17:52 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NormalOutside
I'm ashamed to be from a country bordering the US.



      Then you're really going to hate the North American Union. 



< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 10/20/2008 10:20:48 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 2:40:54 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		History is not on our side and what you say is true Heretic. We need a clear cut objective, we need to reach that objective then we need to get out before it becomes what none of us want it to become. The tribes of Afghanistan have fought the same war for 100's of years only the opponent has changed. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 4:36:03 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes and how many times must the cannonballs fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

Yes and how many years can a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
Yes and how years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes and how many times can man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

Yes and how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes and how many years must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes and how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind...

Bob Dylan (1963)


< Message edited by stella41b -- 10/21/2008 4:39:25 AM >

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 5:07:02 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Our problem I'm afraid is that we try to be the good guys.

If you're going to stand any chance whatsoever in places like Iraq and Afghanistan (especially the latter) then you have to adopt the attitude of the Waffen SS to all the locals, and use the same sort of internment policies that we British used against the Boers in South Africa (yes folk, we invented concentration camps). Nothing short of absolute shocking brutality and repression will do for our success, and nothing short of their absolute unconditional surrender as a people alongside it.

E

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 5:11:56 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Obama is gonna state that the USA is gonna put a man on the moon within ten years. Then he will get shot in Dallas and a US soldier that has defected to the Afghans will be blamed for that. Subsequently he will be succeeded by his vice-president L.B. Johnson who will surreptitiously multiply the number of troops sent to Afghanistan while all the citizens are watching Saturnus moon rocket countdowns. After the war in Afghanistan is lost suddenly the moon program is ended.

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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 5:33:51 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes and how many times must the cannonballs fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

Yes and how many years can a mountain exist
Before it is washed to the sea?
Yes and how years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes and how many times can man turn his head
And pretend that he just doesn't see?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind

Yes and how many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes and how many years must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes and how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind...

Bob Dylan (1963)



How interesting that you would post the lyrics to a Dylan song.  Bill Ayers and his bomber friends also loved Dylan as did a lot of us of that geneation.  It's where the "Weathermen terror group got their name"...
Ironic, dontchathink?

Bob Dylan - Subterranean Homesick Blues

Johnnys in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
Im on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says hes got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
Its somethin you did
God knows when
But youre doin it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phones tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early may
Orders from the d. a.
Look out kid
Dont matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Dont try no doz
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You dont need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
Youre gonna get hit
But losers, cheaters
Six-time users
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin for a new fool
Dont follow leaders
Watch the parkin meters

Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Dont steal, dont lift
Twenty years of schoolin
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Dont wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Dont wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump dont work
cause the vandals took the handles



< Message edited by corysub -- 10/21/2008 5:34:32 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 7:10:40 AM   
Rever


Posts: 43
Joined: 8/12/2008
Status: offline 		Meh, Thing is No one wants to go in and help the Netherlands, Canada, UK and Denmark in hemland, Only the US has sent in around 750 soldiers that were placed under Canadian Command, Plus the 20 Leopard 2A6M Germany loaned Canada. However the Teliban avoids NATO forces for the most part, as direct confrontation often results in heavy losses on their side, For every NATO Solider killed costs them 50-100. The thing with Phanatics is, they will never stop, and the unfortunate reality is you have to either imprison them for life in solitary confinement or kill them

My tactic would be to start going after the arms dealers, send in Black ops and have them either captured or killed.

Also most of the Teliban arnt every afghans, most of the are Iranians and Pakistani.

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 7:19:22 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Our problem I'm afraid is that we try to be the good guys.


The problem is that we are supposed to be the good guys. A Higher moral ground is essential in gaining international support, and having good intent is necessary for securing local assistance.

quote:


If you're going to stand any chance whatsoever in places like Iraq and Afghanistan (especially the latter) then you have to adopt the attitude of the Waffen SS to all the locals, and use the same sort of internment policies that we British used against the Boers in South Africa (yes folk, we invented concentration camps). Nothing short of absolute shocking brutality and repression will do for our success, and nothing short of their absolute unconditional surrender as a people alongside it.

E


You obviously are not aware that the objective is not to conquer, because not all the people of Afghanistan are fighting against us. Not only that, but the part of the Afghani people that are wanting a stable and democratic country, are the ones that will be needed to gain intelligence because it is impossible to infiltrate many of the existing groups that are fighting against our troops.

There was a great essay written by a retired General, who was a Colonel during the Vietnam era. It pretty said that to fight against insurgents and rebels, you needed the local populace to fight the convential part and the rest needed to be fought with intelligence gathering and then using "smart" weapons and special forces to strategically take out targets. Rebels and insurgents try and use "attrition of patience" to win their war. All they need to do is increase the body count, terrorize the locals to keep them from allying with the troops, and sit back and wait for international and public opinion to do the rest. This kind of strategy may have worked in the beginning, but certain areas need to be secured again before it can be put into place.

Afghanistan is the final straw that broke the back of the former Soviet Union, this is one of the reasons why the comment about countries going there to die, is very apt.

There needs to either be a rededication to stabilizing Afghanistan (on an international level), or we need to get the fuck out.

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 8:17:53 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   Afghanistan is where empires go to die, Mia.  We don't even have a supply line.

What a deeply profound statement!  I am serious, that is deep, Rich.  I will remember this 1 line for a long time.

   Iraq is ours.  If it takes a really nasty colonel to stabilize it while we march back out, instead of running, so be it, but we cannot run away from the fight we started.


Sad to say, I somewhat agree.
I guess we will be there for the next 100 years or so.
Thank you for giving me food for thought.
I like you Rich, even though you are a damn Republican!



I think you and others who say we should get out of Afganistan are right in your judgement. I don't really understand why Barack would focus on this country of mountains and caves, whose principle export is poppy,
and strategically no where near as important as Iraq.  Usama is in Pakistan anyway, and the risk is that a President Obama would do something stupid, go in to that country as he stated, and wind up destablizing the Pakistani government, a country with nuclear capability.  No sir...not my kind of President...best we get out now..before he might take the helm and drag us into something really serious focusing on weeding out some taliban in the hills or a guy in a cave and leaving Iraq, the real prize, to deteriorate and truly become even more a part of the Iranian sphere of influence they are today.

Could be lawyers have so much to learn, rules, regulations and such, that they don't spend the time to learn geography.  Iraq is one of the most strategically located countries in the mideast, has immense proven and unproven oil reserves, has an energetic,proud,  intelligent peoples who, frankly, I would rather have on my side than against us because we deserted them to civil war and third world status.  By the way, remember Pelosi and Reid and how we lost in Iraq, the huge civil war going on there...when did you last see that headline....Like the good "ambulance chasing" lawyers they are, they are now chasing the economy...the latest leading issue in the polls.  What a way to govern..!  What principles!  NOT!

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 8:56:26 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Someone here said we never walk away from a war. Does Vietnam ring a bell. Korea is a great reason that we should just pull out of Iraq and Afganastain period. Why stay there forever. Give it back to the people and let them fight it out among themselves.   

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 9:30:28 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Someone here said we never walk away from a war. Does Vietnam ring a bell. Korea is a great reason that we should just pull out of Iraq and Afganastain period. Why stay there forever. Give it back to the people and let them fight it out among themselves.   

I agree.  We should let countries, continents, fight it out among themselves the way  humans have done it since we climbed down from the trees.  Unfortunately, that policy would be too late for so many.  In the 20th century well over 500,0000 Americans died for the cause of other peoples freedom's.  Think where we would be as a peoples if all those minds were not destroyed in the prime of life, and went on themselves or to parent children. Just a handful might have changed the course of medical history, for example, with a cure for terminal diseases.  Think of the possiblities in  technology to change our way of living as just one guy, Bill Gates did.
 
If our country is attacked, if our security or strategic interests are imperiled than lets go in..full flush, not the "surgical politically correct wars our warriors are forced to fight, and get it on..and over with...quickly. 

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RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 10:01:35 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You obviously are not aware that the objective is not to conquer, because not all the people of Afghanistan are fighting against us. Not only that, but the part of the Afghani people that are wanting a stable and democratic country, are the ones that will be needed to gain intelligence because it is impossible to infiltrate many of the existing groups that are fighting against our troops.



I am fully aware of the declared objectives thanks - the question is whether we are using the right strategy to attain them.

I fully accept that we would prefer to be the good guys, rebuilding a shattered country and all that - but that is only one of our objectives, and the secondary objective at that. Our prime objective is to prevent the country becoming a base for the preparation of terrorist acts as I thought.

We have tried the nice guys approach now for over six years, and it isnt working. It will never work, because the culture of the country is not one which respects nice guys. We are being played, thoroughly and deliberately.

If we're serious about our prime objective - the reason we went in there in the first place, then the evidence of the effectiveness of strategy a, (making nice and building a democracy) is seriously lacking. As a US veteran on BBC this week said, "it took us 5 years to win in WWII, and we're now in year 6 over there".

If we're serious about that prime objective then we have to approach it the same as we did nazi Germany - total capitulation of all enemy forces and surrender of all civilians and businesses to our control. If we're serious about preventing more 9/11 type events and we're sure that Afghanistan is the key to that, then its time for the gloves to come off.

Otherwise we can look forward to either ignominious defeat that will hearten those who would destroy us, or a lengthy occupation that costs more and more in lives and money year by year.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Surge and increased violence in Afghanistan - 10/21/2008 11:22:56 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		NBC News is airing reports from troops on the front lines in Afghanistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036029/

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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