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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 6:47:10 PM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yes, but they can't eat Mickey D's over in Cuba.

Maybe that accounts for their lower rates of heart disease than the U.S.
Hunter

< Message edited by HunterS -- 10/22/2008 6:52:45 PM >

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 6:49:52 PM

Irishknight

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Only one question comes to mind. If Cuba is soooo wonderful, why were so many willing to die to get away? Was it just the McDonald's?

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 7:03:27 PM

Real_Trouble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

Radicalism works best in the face of tyrannical, corrupt, or incompetent governance. There was a reason the communist revolution hit Tzarist Russia and not, say, England

When I took history I was taught that a radical revolution...(Monarchy replaced by a representative Republic) did occure in England.... the colonies were part of England and the revolutionaries were English citizens commiting treason against the legally constituted government. Those revolutionaries now call themselves the United States of America.
Perhaps they no longer teach that in school. It has been a while since I was in school.
Hunter

Really? The revolution in England overthrowing the monarchy was communist?

I picked my words carefully there; it was precisely the work of those revolutionaries you are mentioning that made their countries into states that protected the interests of the people, and thus did not lead to additional revolutions!

Don't twist what I was saying. Legitimate states (those that look out for their people) are very rarely overthrown; illegitimate states are often in trouble.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 7:05:27 PM

HunterS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Only one question comes to mind. If Cuba is soooo wonderful, why were so many willing to die to get away? Was it just the McDonald's?

What percentage of the 11 or 12 million Cubans left Cuba and came to the U.S.? Wern't they from the upper class who had been opressing the Cuban people for fifty plus years with U.S. help? Wern't they given no intrest and low intrest loans to buy houses and start businesses which were not available to U.S. native born citizens? Wern't they given preferential treatment to become citizens?
A little research might help with your question.
Hunter

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 7:06:20 PM

Hippiekinkster

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"Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama issued a pointed warning yesterday to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, saying that as president he would be prepared to order U.S. troops into that country unilaterally if it failed to act on its own against Islamic extremists." Hmmm, invasion, invasion... nope, wrong word.... OH! I KNOW! SORTIE!!! "Words mean things" Hahahahaha

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 7:33:40 PM

HunterS

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quote:

Really? The revolution in England overthrowing the monarchy was communist?

I picked my words carefully there; it was precisely the work of those revolutionaries you are mentioning that made their countries into states that protected the interests of the people, and thus did not lead to additional revolutions!

Don't twist what I was saying. Legitimate states (those that look out for their people) are very rarely overthrown; illegitimate states are often in trouble.

Some how you seem to perceive a difference between one revolution and another revolution. One as being legitimate and one as being illegitimate. Yet you do not seem to list any criteria other than your bias.
If you were to study the history of our country you would notice that it is filled with rebellions not unlike the ones in Russia. You point to a "legitimate" revolution as one which protects the people....I am sure you are not unaware of how the Native American was not protected. I am sure you are not unaware of how the African Americans were not protected. I am sure you are not unaware of how the Mexican Americans were not protected. You may be less familiar with how Asian Americans were not protected. You cannot be unaware of how female Americans were not protected.
Puuuleeeezzzzze...legitimate revolution...give me a break. A rebellion is an attempt to overthrow the existing government. A revolution is a successful rebellion.
H.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 8:02:36 PM

Real_Trouble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS
Some how you seem to perceive a difference between one revolution and another revolution.

One as being legitimate and one as being illegitimate. Yet you do not seem to list any criteria other than your bias.

If you were to study the history of our country you would notice that it is filled with rebellions not unlike the ones in Russia.

You point to a "legitimate" revolution as one which protects the people....I am sure you are not unaware of how the Native American was not protected. I am sure you are not unaware of how the African Americans were not protected. I am sure you are not unaware of how the Mexican Americans were not protected. You may be less familiar with how Asian Americans were not protected. You cannot be unaware of how female Americans were not protected.
Puuuleeeezzzzze...legitimate revolution...give me a break. A rebellion is an attempt to overthrow the existing government. A revolution is a successful rebellion.
H.

I don't intend to come off as rude here, but do you even know what you are talking about?

To wit:

I am not speaking of legitimate or illegitimate revolutions. You need to go re-read what I posted. I am speaking of legitimate and illegitimate states, and I have very broadly defined those as ones which look out for the best interests of a majority of the people in a general fashion and ones which do not do so. That's not a terribly hard criteria to understand, and I'm not sure why you are going off on a revolution swag.

Second, the indigenous peoples of the Americas were very definitely not protected; for the most part, they were not considered members of the state, either. American history is filled with denials of rights / humanity / legitimacy for various indigenous tribes. Jackson himself told the supreme court to fuck off when they tried to protect them, in fact, on the basis that they weren't "Americans".

Likewise, as bitter as you might want to be about America (and it's far from perfect, nor am I holding it up as some sort of perfect paragon of a state - see my commentary about our blatant idiocy in Iraq and Afghanistan for evidence of this), it sure beats the hell out of a lot of other places. There are very few places I'd rather live than America, because as bad as it might be here, it's often a hell of a lot worse elsewhere.

That's not an excuse for mediocrity, but rather an acceptance of how ugly and brutal humans are, on average. Point is, I'm not sure what your revolution kick is aimed at. The point I am making, which is incontrovertibly true and very well supported by history is this:

If the government of a given region is egregiously corrupt or tyrannical, it will almost always eventually be overthrown. Often by other corrupt tyrant types, but occasionally not.

In Afghanistan, we are supporting an inept, corrupt government ultimately being run by various factional warlords that act as tyrants. This is the same mistake we've made repeatedly in the past, and more of the same that got us to where we are in the first place.

I suggest this is stupid.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/22/2008 8:14:15 PM

MissSCD

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That is a really good question. I would not vote for McCain. I believe we would go under martial law with President Bush until it is over, if we are not all ready in martial law.
I think President Bush set up that bail out just to extend his Presidency, God help us all.

Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 4:45:18 AM

HunterS

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quote:

I am not speaking of legitimate or illegitimate revolutions. You need to go re-read what I posted. I am speaking of legitimate and illegitimate states, and I have very broadly defined those as ones which look out for the best interests of a majority of the people in a general fashion and ones which do not do so. That's not a terribly hard criteria to understand, and I'm not sure why you are going off on a revolution swag.

My original post was a response to your statements about revolutions...so much for my going of on a revolution "swag"
You segued from revolution to legitimate and illegitimate states...how does a legitimate state proceed from an illegitimate revolution or a illegitimate state proceed from a legitimate revolution?...you dance well but say little.
You say that "legitimate" states look out for the majority of the people in that state. I pointed out that that is not and has not been true of the U.S. What has in fact been the policy of those who govern my country is to look out for the welfare of rich white males (who are a minority).
You confuse my disaproval of U.S. policy with bitterness towards America.
America is my country of birth and my country of choice. I spent a significant portion of my life wearing a green suit and carrying a gun for America. I think that gives me the right to comment on the shortcomings of those who govern my country.
Hunter

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 4:50:51 AM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Only one question comes to mind. If Cuba is soooo wonderful, why were so many willing to die to get away? Was it just the McDonald's?

What percentage of the 11 or 12 million Cubans left Cuba and came to the U.S.? Wern't they from the upper class who had been opressing the Cuban people for fifty plus years with U.S. help? Wern't they given no intrest and low intrest loans to buy houses and start businesses which were not available to U.S. native born citizens? Wern't they given preferential treatment to become citizens?
A little research might help with your question.
Hunter

None of them looked like rich people when they were pulled from the water. They looked like human beings who were nearly dead from trying to escape a dictator. Of course, in your world he is probably a misunderstood grandfather who would never have harmed a flea. People don't flee at the possible cost of their lives from a benevolent government who is willing to give them everything in the world. People don't try to walk through mine fields to escape Disneyland....although I would find the temptation to do so amazingly strong.
Take your own advice and do some research. Also, try living in this reality. Either that or go back to the alternate dimension of which you continue to preach.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 5:13:47 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

None of them looked like rich people when they were pulled from the water. They looked like human beings who were nearly dead from trying to escape a dictator.

You know, many Mexicans look the same way when they cross our border... I suppose we should let all of them stay, no questions asked, etc... they must be victims of oppression too after all.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 7:58:50 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama issued a pointed warning yesterday to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, saying that as president he would be prepared to order U.S. troops into that country unilaterally if it failed to act on its own against Islamic extremists." Hmmm, invasion, invasion... nope, wrong word.... OH! I KNOW! SORTIE!!! "Words mean things" Hahahahaha

So much for the Right's claims that he is a pacifist, huh?

Anyone who thinks Obama is against war is a fool.

Anyone who thinks McCain wouldn't start declaring wars is not listening to him talk at all.

One of them thinks about things and makes statements; one of them sings songs about bombing countries and thinks it is amusing.

Since I can't have a pacifist, I know which I'd rather have.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 8:00:35 AM

yourmilkmaid

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McCain girl here.

< Message edited by yourmilkmaid -- 10/23/2008 8:03:48 AM >

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 8:03:40 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavehandsome

The very idea that someone would start this post is disgusting. As if to say "please attack us again so we'll all be afraid into voting for McCain."

I started this post because it's news and has to do with current events. It's pertinent and timely and given the number of responses to it, obviously something that is interesting to people. As I will not be voting for McCain, your premise as to my motivations for starting this thread is, obviously, false.

Actually isn't it "news" in that the neo-con machine started jumping on this first?

Just like some are asking why no one wants to bring up Obama's biography where he mentions drug use. Because we have a alcoholic former coke-head in the White House currently so no one really cares about past drug use?

When a candidate or party has nothing positive or useful to say, they attack others.

Yes, Obama's campaign and supporters are making attack ads but they are also making positive ads that discuss him and his proposed policies. We are seeing a buttload of ads here in Indiana right now.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 8:05:24 AM

HunterS

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quote:

None of them looked like rich people when they were pulled from the water. They looked like human beings who were nearly dead from trying to escape a dictator. Of course, in your world he is probably a misunderstood.grandfather who would never have harmed a flea. People don't flee at the possible cost of their lives from a benevolent government who is willing to give them everything in the world. People don't try to walk through mine fields to escape Disneyland....although I would find the temptation to do so amazingly strong.
Take your own advice and do some research. Also, try living in this reality. Either that or go back to the alternate dimension of which you continue to preach.

I notice you failed to address any of the points I brought up.
You do not find it interesting that the people who fled the "dictator" Castro did not flee the dictator Batista....why come?
I would never suggest that Castro would not hurt a fly. He took Cuba from the U.S. supported dictator Batista at the point of a gun. I am here to tell you he is one bad mf.
I have been to Cuba. I happen to have been there in "62" when the shit nearly hit the fan. Lucky for me and a half dozen cities on the eastern seaboard that Johnnie and Nicki worked out a "quid pro quo" before LeMay & co. got us into a shooting war.
H.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 8:06:54 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

That every President since George Washington has been hit with some crisis within the first 6 months in office is no surprise, why would it be one now? GW was handed the office and the bill for the Revolutionary War, Lincoln the problems leading to the Civil War, and so on and so forth. It is not a peaceful office that one steps into when one is elected President. It bears a burden that most of us can only imagine, for not only are the eyes of those who voted for you watching, but those who didn't, those who envy you as well as those who love you, and the rest of the World, as well. Each person who speaks with you will have their own agenda, and desires, and you will need to weigh carefully the needs of the many over the needs of the few (to paraphase Mr. Spock). That chair in the Oval Office is not an easy one to sit in. It will take a calm and reasoned mind these days to lead this nation.

This is what Biden was talking about but as sadly happens with many dems, he forgets that the public will only be fed tiny little sound bites.

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 8:10:30 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Someday, we will have another terrorist attack. To live in fear and panic of that is to cripple your intellect and your life.

But, puella, if you don't live in constant fear how can those in power take away all your citizenship rights disguised as protecting you and American.

Come on, woman, get with the "patriotic" program. (sarcasm intended)

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RE: Would Terror attack change your vote? - 10/23/2008 1:03:13 PM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

None of them looked like rich people when they were pulled from the water. They looked like human beings who were nearly dead from trying to escape a dictator.

You know, many Mexicans look the same way when they cross our border... I suppose we should let all of them stay, no questions asked, etc... they must be victims of oppression too after all.

Nice try. I was for sending the Cubans back, too. I will not, however, deny the fact of what took place nor color history with "wish it was." The reality is that they came here from a communist country and asked for assylum. Our government granted it. In fact, our government had a stated policy to grant assylum to refugees from any communist country at one point. It was an attempt to destabilize them during the cold war.
Of course, the Mexicans are coming here from a democratic country that has actual laws and procedures for immigration to another country. Since both Mexico and the US have a procedure in place for people to come into this country from theirs, you are comparing apples to artichokes. Apparently, you were all out of oranges.

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