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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 6:09:51 AM   
BlackPhx


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Frankly Aileen if you didn't report this, then you became a silent partner in their crime. More landlords who accept HUD, welfare etc. SHOULD report it when they see evidence of fraud. Many do not.

I for one will report  and have, welfare and food stamp fraud, medicare/insurance fraud ( yes Dr.'s and hospitals are the biggest participants, examine your bills/EOB's carefully and address/question anything you don't remember having done). This is something we all should be doing, because it steals from our pocketbooks. So yes the poor do cheat, no one ever said they don't. The people paying them under the table however are also involved..pay someone $5 under the table in cash and save How much in Insurance Premiums, FICA, Employment Tax funds, Unemployment when you let them go and other costs of doing business. However someone you may think is getting paid under the table, may not be, Minimum wage is far less than a family of 3 or 4  or even 2 may need to live on, especially if there is only one able worker. That means they may still be eligible for State and Federal aid for housing, food and expenses. Business' fight to keep minimum wage low, but please try and figure out how to feed and clothe, medically care for a family on 6.55 an hour which just became  effective July 24 ,2008. 1117.00 a month before taxes won't even pay rent in most areas, but you will owe taxes on that 14,148 a year that May or may not be offset by tax credits. Remember in a divorce only one parent can take the chld as a dependent or head of household credit and there are an awful lot of men out there who are willing to spawn but not contribute child support.

We are far from rich, Master's Mother has a pretty penny but that is not ours, but instead of hiring the guy who has a lawn mower and isn't going to report the income, we hire a service when Master is on the road constantly. No we don't report VAT when we purchase off the internet. If it is not bought in this state it is not owed, but we buy more in state than off the net and pay the appropriate taxes. We give to charities and insists if it is an item contribution that the charity value it, IF we bother to take a reciept for it at all.

Yes there are welfare families out there, generation after generation raised on it, but there have been efforts in the past to mandate they work for that welfare that have been blocked at the legislative level as "slavery". Many however enroll in work incentive programs to help them get off welfare.  I would rather see, your child has reached 1 year of age, you want your welfare benefits, you are now going to clean up roadways, sort recyclables, attend classes that will put you in the work market, than we will support you as long as you keep dropping babies.  That was close to how it was originally arranged when it first started in 1930 with Roosevelt's New Deal. You got benefits to help you eat, to keep a roof over the heads of your family and you worked on WPA projects. It was designed to help Artist's ( like Jackson Pollock then just starting out) and the unemployed who built walls,  roads and  bridges, and took care of parks. Pride in being able to do for your family even if it was through welfare, instead of entitlement.

BTW for those who have never collected Unemployment, the benefit rarely comes anywhere NEAR what you were being paid, you might be eligible for Food stamps, your COBRA payment will nearly give you a heart attack when you see the estimate and UNemployment Income IS Taxable at state and Federal Level. So is Soc. Security Income (including Disability) above a certain level or in combination with other household income. Living at the bottom of the heap aint all that much fun either especially if you are willing to work but find that many of the jobs you are qualified to do, have either gone overseas, or are filled by illegals willing to take less than you, sans benefits, in cash, under the table.

poenkitten


< Message edited by BlackPhx -- 10/23/2008 6:16:41 AM >

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 6:24:32 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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oh come on!

She is not an accessory.    No way.      And I know abit about HUD.  Landlords or tenants on HUD must follow rules OR be banned for life.

But aside from that- she has no burden to report what she posted here. She suspects it.  She does not have proof.  Stay out of the neighbors affairs.

Had I been her,  I would think and cover my ass.  If someone fries themself fine, but leave me out of it.   I mind my biz, and you mind yours.



(in reply to BlackPhx)
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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 6:33:16 AM   
kittinSol


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Yes, moral relativism is so convenient. 

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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 7:10:31 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Good morning every body  

I've posted the links often enough but, here you go one more time.

http://www.atr.org/content/pdf/2008/August/081408ot-federalincometaxandwhattheypay.pdf

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/206.html

Wouldn't it be nice if more people bothered to simply Google the facts before posting nonsense like that, and wasting everyone's time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
The poor (or the bottom 40%) don't pay taxes,


You've said this before.  It's not true - not even close to true.  The bottom 12% or so of us don't pay income taxes.  Single people start pay income tax when their income is over $8,355.  A family of 4 starts paying taxes when their income is over about $21,000.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/23/2008 7:14:24 AM >


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(in reply to MmeGigs)
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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 7:25:04 AM   
BlackPhx


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Yes they must follow rule PaHunk, but if you KNOW someone is abusing the system you either report it thereby doing something about it..or you don't but if you don't you don't have the right to complain about people cheating the system. People only get away with it when others turn a blind eye.

Yes, I actually equate welfare and insurance fraud with other crimes of theft. If I witness someone breaking into your house and stealing all of your stuff..should I turn a blind eye to the crime..or call the cops and report it. After all you are not being physically hurt, only everything you own and work for is gone.

If a hospital charges my insurance company for medications and treatments I didn't receive when I was admitted, should I just turn a blind eye and say oh the insurance company has deep pockets..or recognize that not only is the insurance company hurt (for whom I have little sympathy), but, my premiums will go up to cover such expenses the following year, or if too many claims happen like that, they may have to let employees go and raise rates to cover.

If I see someone driving a brand new car, wearing expensive jewelry, and yet living in a HUD subsidized house, collecting welfare, medicaid and food stamps I am going to consider it theft from my wallet and yours, if it is proved they are committing fraud. If they are not, they have lost nothing save the time it takes to show they are in compliance.

If I see someone dealing drugs, stealing a car, committing a crime, then I can either report it..or silently condone what they are doing, until they do it to me.

poenkitten (who knows you are either an active part of the solution or part of the problem even if all you do is remain silent)

< Message edited by BlackPhx -- 10/23/2008 7:38:10 AM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 7:34:51 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx
if you KNOW someone is abusing the system you either report it thereby doing something about it..or you don't but if you don't you don't have the right to complain about people cheating the system.


This bears repeating, until people that profit from those that abuse the system either stop profiteering... or shut the hell up.


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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 8:54:56 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

If you'd like to vote for Ron Paul, why don't you?

Will you put ice-cream and a cherry on top?
 
K.
 


Ice cream is fattening and I lost my cherry years ago.

It's all good. I should have read your post a little more carefully. It actually already anwered my question.

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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 10:24:36 AM   
Aileen1968


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First of all...my rental was not HUD housing.  We took no money from the state.  Some of you people should really get off your fucking high horse (kittin).  We actually let a Vietnam vet live there for about ten months rent free because it was the right thing to do.  What have you done lately to help?  The point of my post was to show that it's not only the rich cheating.  You can all believe in the perfect Utopia, but it isn't a reality.  There's a whole infrastructure within this society that takes what it can and they come from all economic levels.   The amount of low income families far exceed the amount of rich.  Their scams add up too and they're putting far less back into the economy.  Have a nice day.  I'm done with the ridiculous attitudes of righteousness in this corner of collarchat. 

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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 10:34:41 AM   
cjan


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Cat fight  ! Oh boy ! 

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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 10:46:02 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

We actually let a Vietnam vet live there for about ten months rent free because it was the right thing to do.



Ah well, you see, perhaps it looked otherwise, because you wrote this earlier:

quote:

ORIGINAL 68

I can tell you that I was paid cash every month for the rent and that the tenants didn't work and weren't married to each other.  They all collected welfare and all kinds of monies.  They never got married because if they did they'd loose half of what they received.  They also did have jobs.  Jobs that paid cash.  So, not only were they receiving funds from the state, they didn't pay any taxes whatsoever.  Who's cheating here?



It's all very, very confusing - perhaps it is you who is on a high horse?  But you've gotta a gun. That means you have the last word. Buh bye .



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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 11:23:13 AM   
pahunkboy


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Then I guess I live in the right town.
I don't want  nosy neighbors into my every move-    If I see someone in a fancy car on HUD- I don't know the circumstances- just like others don't know when I park in a handicap space what the  story is.

you are only guessing at what others are doing.

But you know what?  Try butting into the business of the wrong person. See what happens.  Evidently you haven't stood in the way of the wrong person...and there are plenty of them.    How at risk do you want to be?
even if you are right- the next thing you know all sorts of odd things happening to you then.

If keeping to myself is part of the problem, then so be it.

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 11:26:15 AM   
kittinSol


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That's not the problem - god knows I love my privacy. The problem comes from judging one segment of society (the 'poor') for 'cheating', and not another segment of society (the 'rich') for 'making creative investment decisions and tax strategies'. The problem also comes from people judging others whilst putting their hand in the honeypot at the same time. See? 

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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 11:58:52 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

That's not the problem - god knows I love my privacy. The problem comes from judging one segment of society (the 'poor') for 'cheating', and not another segment of society (the 'rich') for 'making creative investment decisions and tax strategies'. The problem also comes from people judging others whilst putting their hand in the honeypot at the same time. See? 



I agree.  

behind every great fortune is a ...crime

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 12:19:36 PM   
BlackPhx


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Considering I have lived in Manhattan Upper and Lower East and West, Brooklyn, South Bronx, St Albans Queens, NJ various parts, NC, LA, NM, and now Florida, I have lived in just about every type of neighborhood possible save the the Utterly Wealthy and they are not that far from me. My current home is in a neighborhood that is predominately black, in transition but gun fire can be heard on a semi -regular basis a few blocks away. We desired to know who our neighbors are, and we watch out for each other. Here the neighbors watch out for each other as well as the kids. We are not locked in fear behind our doors watching out only for ourselves.

It's what neighborhoods USED to be everywhere. So yes, when drug dealers try to move in the area, we don't stay silent, and maybe a meth house doesn't blow up in THIS neighborhood and hurt Police and Firemen because they don't have time to get established. Yes, when the elderly lady across the street isn't seen picking up her mail, a neighbor checks on her and gets her to the hospital in time. Yes the 4 year old that slipped out of the house is pulled out of the middle of the street and taken back to their house, by someone mowing their yard. Need a hand, ask a neighbor, someone loses a family member, take a casserole over, sit the dog for them while they are gone and take in the mail.

And you are right you can run into the wrong person and cross them, but if you don't stand up and help to move the mess out of your neighborhood, who will? McCain? Obama? No. The cops are only as good as the information they recieve. Fraud only stops when someone blows the whistle isntead of turning their back. Someone has to stand up. I wish someone had for me when I was young and and beaten half to death instead of turning a blind eye and a deaf ear in an apartment building with walls as thin as cardboard.

If you don't stand up..fine, that is your choice. But don't complain if no one is there to stand up for you when you need them to be.

poenkitten

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 12:24:57 PM   
RainydayNE


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Ah, but you see, when people supposedly take advantage of the welfare system, they're morally questionable cockroaches, whereas when people cheat to wiggle out of paying billions of corporate taxes... they're on the meritocratic highway, paying their way to success. It's all a question of morality here. See?


nice. absolutely perfect

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 2:43:18 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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Actually I am part of crime watch.   An active part.


ruining a neighborhood vs conning the grid out of additional $, are 2 different issues.    I dont care what the others on my block do to obtain their money.  Just keep the space. 

Why do you think there are SO MANY who are getting benefits that they are not entitled to?  Doesnt your state have a compliance mechanism.  We do here. They send a guy out to go in person.  Also the state puts a lien on the recipient.

Using your line of logic- I should be able to walk into the US budget office and go line by line on military spending, and not leaving until the companies who overcharge are reversed.





(in reply to RainydayNE)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 5:17:47 PM   
BlackPhx


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Actually I wish that we could do exactly that. There should be accountability to the tax payers who are paying for all of the governments expenditures.
Conning the grid out of money may or may not have an impact on the neighborhood, it all depeonds on where that extra cash is coming from..sometimes it is just multiple welfare accounts ( it happens) sometimes, over crowding the house ( which adds wear and tear) sometimes it is legitimate jobs but sometimes it is drug trade and prostitution. Neither of which tends to attract the most desirable clientele. I have had that occur in the HUD house next door to me...Nothing like watching the cops do a raid in full gear, vaulting over YOUR back fence to get into the neighbors yard.

Yes Florida does have a compliance mechanism..but the workers are spread awfully thin and underpaid. When they have knocked on my door to ask about their client, I tell the truth..how many people I have seen living there, whether they supervise the kids or any other questions they have. What they do with that information is up to them. I have no idea about liens on the recipient..but I do know they weren't to happy to find out the person who had just been released from prison for molestation was living in the house with the victim and back at it. Mom turned a blind eye cause he was a good provider, and brought in good money selling drugs.

It would be nice not to care about the system, but every time they double dip..it denies someone who needs help, as there is only so much in the budget.

poenkitten

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 5:36:59 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaSunSwitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

According to a Forbes article here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27328293/ I have included only a snippet..the article itself is fascinating.

"In all, because of their higher noncompliance rates, those with true incomes of $200,000 or more received 25 percent of all income, but accounted for 40 percent of net under reported income and 42 percent of under reported tax in 2001, the new analysis finds.

The study was written by Joel Slemrod, an economics professor and director of the Office of Tax Policy Research at the University of Michigan's business school and IRS economist Andrew Johns. It has not been officially endorsed or even released by the IRS and seems sure to add fuel to the election season debate over whether those earning $250,000 or more should pay higher tax rates, as Sen. Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, has proposed."
poenkitten ( whose jaw dropped while reading it)



Since 40 percent of the workforce pays no federal taxes it's kind of hard for them to cheat.

Since, the top 10 percent of taxpayers provide 70 percent of the tax revenue you would think they would be responsible for 70 percent of the underreporting. Yet they are only responsible for some fraction of that 42 percent.

Seems to me they are about twice as honest as the typical taxpayer, that's probably why it isn't "officially endorsed".




Indeed.

Moreover, those with "C" and "S" corporations can pay taxes either in their corporate or personal taxes, but paying them corporately then requires that to get the money out of the corporation, they have to pay taxes on the money twice.  A recent study showed that "fewer than 16% of all corporations pay taxes".

Indeed again, and very true.

Here's how it works: 

Business person owns three companies.

Company 1 makes 100 grand profit.

Company 2 makes 75 grand profit.

Company 3 loses 50 grand.

Taxable net profit (to make things over simplified) is 125 grand.

The (smaller) corporation never pays income tax...the guy who owns all the shares does, so the individual pays taxes on the entire 125 grand.

Taxes were paid on every dime...and at a slightly higher rate than the 27% corporate rate (unless they had "unearned income" which is taxed at a slightly lower rate).

Since most of the corporations in the United States are (very) small businesses...it's perfectly logical that most corporations don't pay federal income tax.

And if a corporation isn't paying taxes due to tax write offs...that's because they spent a shit load of money on new equipment or other investments that created jobs...which is a perfectly legal tax benefit that the feds want businesses to take so that they (the feds) don't have to spend 10 times as much in unemployment bennies.

Any time I hear about companies that don't pay taxes I'm either very sad (because they're probably going to go broke from lack of profits far more often than they'll have been a tax dodger) or very happy because that means they're creating enough tax benefits through investment that they're creating jobs in my community.

Most of that crap about companies not paying taxes is just that...crap, put out by one or more political groups wanting you to hate someone just enough that you'll fall in love with the other guy....and vote for them.

Don't believe most of what you read.

(Particularly on "evil business people").

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 10/23/2008 5:39:01 PM >

(in reply to ArizonaSunSwitch)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 6:28:15 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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Maybe I would be different somewhere else.   In the local area here, it isnt a big problem.     % wise of who is doing what, maybe it is lower then typical.  they love to put people in jail here. 


That can be annoying when going about ones business when of course the scanner will ring up correct.  , and OMG (Ill take up your time and that of your worker) [quick trip to hardware store]  cause the cash register doesnt know the part number for inventory.

You are correct about - that it denies someone else.  Jenny runs a food bank... and she wondered why a certain family was so big.  It turns out they claimed the dog was a person..in an effort to get more...     Now that family is banned for life at that food bank.

No one likes when other have a "you owe me"  personality.  

They do clean out the section 8 here.  They ran everyone thru a check to see if they lied on the annual paperwork.   so bye bye to those that did.   The drug task force rounds up a sting a few times a year- so those people are thrown out too.
PA has a law that if the renter is charged with serious drug offense the landlord can lose the property.



But  back to the point. I know what works for me... and best if I focus on my household.   :-)





< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 10/23/2008 6:31:34 PM >

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Rich cheat on their taxes more, study shows - 10/23/2008 7:18:14 PM   
BlackPhx


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Maybe you would be Pa..maybe I would be. But believe me when I say I also know an awful lot of people who recieve no help and struggle to make it on their own. Some do, some don't and some drop between the cracks. When I lived in Ocala, there were more than a few families on the street and living in tents in the National Forest. They refused all aid, and did for themselves even though they had lost everything. Some did day labor when they could get it on farms and horse farms, others scavenged for scrap metal they could sell. public health supplies their medical care when it is needed and the local Salvation Army acts as their mail drop and permanent address so their children can attend school.  They won't take a handout, but they will work for a hand up. A far cry from those who work the system and think the world owes them, no matter what their income level is. I have known wealthy kids in the past who thought the world owed them, not just welfare scammers.

Sigh. There are no easy answers. All we can do is be proactive instead of sitting around with our heads in the sand something ostriches don't actually do. If we don't report crime, abuse or fraud when we see it, then we all end up paying for it without the right to complain about how much money it is costing us. As the stores say, Shoplifting hurts us all..It forces us to raise prices to make up for the loss and prevention methods. Well it is the same with welfare, insurance and system fraud..it costs us all.

poenkitten

< Message edited by BlackPhx -- 10/23/2008 7:19:20 PM >

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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