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RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 1:29:57 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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Is there a difference between having the regular military and a paramilitary force on stand by? Many countries have paramilitary forces and all are there to protect the state from the people, that is their function and that is why I'm surprised Britain doesn't have one.....yet.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/24/2008 1:30:33 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 21

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 4:23:35 AM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Is there a difference between having the regular military and a paramilitary force on stand by? Many countries have paramilitary forces and all are there to protect the state from the people, that is their function and that is why I'm surprised Britain doesn't have one.....yet.

I think the difference and the point is this.
We have part time soldiers who are away from their families and jobs fighting a war. While we have the actual US Army combat forces standing by to do their job of service to their home state should an emergency arise.

Before anyone even suggest I feel any less for the regular army troops who are away from their homes and family, I don't. I have great respect and admiration for their service, whether I agree with the commander in chief or not.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 22

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 4:49:25 AM

shatteredplaster

Posts: 47
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster

I would really like to clarify something which I find a little annoying in this thread. We are not here to suppress your rights as a citizen, we are here to protect you and give you aid.

First of all, I'd like to say thank you for your service to this country. I have a great deal of respect for our service personnel and the risk you've taken and your pledge to defend and protect this country from all enemies foreign and domestic. I'm just not sure what Bush thinks a domestic enemy is anymore. That's what scares me. It's that whole 'you're either with us or against us' mentality and the signatories on the Patriot act, which have absolutely suppressed my rights as a citizen. One only needs to read it to know it. See, I'm against Bush, I think he's a criminal and a traitor ... that makes me his enemy. Since he said he would chase his enemies to hell and back, I think being a bit paranoid will suit me better than burying my head in the sand and pretending there's a guy in office right now who hasn't been drunk with power for the last 7 years.

So, forgive me if I don't feel protected. I feel betrayed. I have neither trust nor faith in the current administration and I can't wait until Jan 20, 2009 when, hopefully, the reigns will be handed over to someone else.

quote:

If there's a hurricane, who do you think is going to be sent in...Field Artillery?

If past history is any indication .. no one.

I stated earlier that I was down there. If you truly believe that nobody was sent, then you were paying too much attention to what FoxNews was saying.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 23

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 5:58:54 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Is there a difference between having the regular military and a paramilitary force on stand by? Many countries have paramilitary forces and all are there to protect the state from the people, that is their function and that is why I'm surprised Britain doesn't have one.....yet.

To protect the state from the people?

The paramilitary force in the US is the people (Second Amendment).

K.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 24

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 6:31:12 AM

HunterS

Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

When you consider the average brigade strength, usually 2 to five regiments, or about 4000 men, it is highly probable that the unit will have to dig into reserve and guard forces to make up the compliment.

I have been out of the service for a while but if memory serves me right.
squad=13 men
platoon=4 squads
company=5 platoons
batallion =5 companies
regiment =3 to 5 Batalions
division=2 or more regiments
corps=2 or more divisions
army=2 or more corps
quick math says that a regiment is between 3,000 and 5,000 men
Two to five regiments would be somewhere between a minimum of 6,000 men and a maximum of
25,000 men.
H.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 25

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 6:57:47 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Is there a difference between having the regular military and a paramilitary force on stand by? Many countries have paramilitary forces and all are there to protect the state from the people, that is their function and that is why I'm surprised Britain doesn't have one.....yet.

To protect the state from the people?

The paramilitary force in the US is the people (Second Amendment).

K.

So is every other paramilitary force.

People have a habit of forgetting such niceities when they put on a uniform.

Kent State etc etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 26

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 7:07:13 AM

HunterS

Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Four thousand Troops all in uniform wouldn't be much of a match for four thousand heavily armed civilians *not* in uniform now would they?
I could pop off 4 or 5 of them from a distance before they even knew they were taking fire.
Then 4 or 5 the next day, or week or month.
Much ado about nothing.

We are gonna miss you popeye.
H.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 27

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 7:25:21 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
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My opinion, and the opinion of others, is that the paramilitary force in the US is Blackwater USA.

They were utilized, in conjunction with others (sherrifs, local police, Staties, Nat'l Guard), during the Kitrina aftermath. Among the duties and orders these mixed "patrols" carried out was the confiscation of the weapons of private citizens. These private citizens had chosen to remain in their homes to protect their property. Law abiding and in possession of weapons under the 2nd Amendment.

FEMA had taken the step of literally employing religious leaders of various denominations to preach a convoluted interpretation of a rarely used passage in Romans. The sermon said, in essence, the governemt is ordained bu God and anything the government asks of you,or instructs you to do, is also ordained by God. Disobey and you're a bad Christian.

Draw your own conclusions.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to HunterS)

Post #: 28

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 7:32:52 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Four thousand Troops all in uniform wouldn't be much of a match for four thousand heavily armed civilians *not* in uniform now would they?
I could pop off 4 or 5 of them from a distance before they even knew they were taking fire.
Then 4 or 5 the next day, or week or month.
Much ado about nothing.

popeye, you always make the convenient assumption that all the civilians would be on the same side. There are enough extremists and fundementalists in America that would prove that assumption wrong. You only need a few civilian mavericks trying to impose their view of the world to spread deepen already existing mistrust and hatreds. Why would a poor discriminated black person fight on the same side as an affluent white? Why would a poor discriminated hispanic fight for affluent white? Some will want to fight for the government side, some wouldn't.

When the centre falls apart, its difficult to put the broken pieces back together. Societies are fragile organisms.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/24/2008 7:34:57 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 29

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 8:13:17 AM

corysub

Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Is there a difference between having the regular military and a paramilitary force on stand by? Many countries have paramilitary forces and all are there to protect the state from the people, that is their function and that is why I'm surprised Britain doesn't have one.....yet.

I think the difference and the point is this.
We have part time soldiers who are away from their families and jobs fighting a war. While we have the actual US Army combat forces standing by to do their job of service to their home state should an emergency arise.

Before anyone even suggest I feel any less for the regular army troops who are away from their homes and family, I don't. I have great respect and admiration for their service, whether I agree with the commander in chief or not.

I think if you examined the mission of this Brigade you will understand that they are "stationed" in Georgia...but will be a rapid deployment force to assist any State that has a problem where their training would be helpful.
We have a lot more to worry about these days than a fantasy "police state" under Bush.I would be more concerned with people who talk about "popping off" a few of our military because they were in uniform and easy to spot. Obviously, this person has never been in the military, has no clue that our warriors "shoot back" if fired upon, and his ass would be ripped several new holes as he tries to run with his baggy pants full of you know what!
Countless idiots who have ever looked down the muzzle of the weapon of an American GI sees the last thing he is going to see. But even that's not the point...that an american citizen would even jokingly write that sort of text is sickening. .. but I'll get over it.

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 30

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 8:33:18 AM

Patrick2005

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline

[/quote]

popeye, you always make the convenient assumption that all the civilians would be on the same side. There are enough extremists and fundementalists in America that would prove that assumption wrong. You only need a few civilian mavericks trying to impose their view of the world to spread deepen already existing mistrust and hatreds. Why would a poor discriminated black person fight on the same side as an affluent white? Why would a poor discriminated hispanic fight for affluent white? Some will want to fight for the government side, some wouldn't.

When the centre falls apart, its difficult to put the broken pieces back together. Societies are fragile organisms.
[/quote]

Most of them do fight on the same side as the affluent whites- and it's pretty much always been that way. We call them the US Army.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 31

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 8:40:56 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

Not directly on point, but related IMO.

Has anyone here read Ed Vieiras essays/comments/editorials regarding "restarting" the citizen militias? He is far from a kook or nut. He is one of the nations leading constitutional experts. 4 cases before the US Supreme Court (a rare and major feat all by itself) and he has won 3 of them (an even bigger feat).

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Patrick2005)

Post #: 32

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 10:37:57 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrick2005

Most of them do fight on the same side as the affluent whites- and it's pretty much always been that way. We call them the US Army.

True. That's what professional armies are for, the protection of the government and the protection of the affluent minority (which are pretty much the same) against the poor majority.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Patrick2005)

Post #: 33

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 11:16:22 AM

Slavehandsome

Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline

In regards to Blackwater patrolling the streets of New Orleans and disarming the taxpayers, we must understand that government, even private mercenaries (paid $1000 per day tax-free by the way) working on behalf of the government, only exists by consent. When taxpayers no longer consent to that government, and that government moves to take away freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, then as the Army knows, there is nothing morally wrong with neutralizing the agents of that government. Therefore, it would have been in the best interest of all taxpayers in New Orleans who stayed in their homes with their guns, to watch the streets and as those mercenary agents approached the neighbors' homes, it becomes the patriotic duty of said taxpayer to neutralize said agents. Maybe Rumsfeld didn't get the singing telegram, but we as taxpayers DO NOT consent to such fraudulent use of our tax money. However, since the experiment went smoothly for those in power, we should only expect an increase in this type of pressure. Be ready for it, and if they're wearing riot gear, go for the neck shot.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 34

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 12:00:13 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I'm just not sure what Bush thinks a domestic enemy is anymore. That's what scares me.

Does it really scare you or are you just using the word scare to show concern?

quote:

It's that whole 'you're either with us or against us' mentality and the signatories on the Patriot act, which have absolutely suppressed my rights as a citizen.

What rights have you tried to actually use that has been absolutely suppressed?

quote:

One only needs to read it to know it. See, I'm against Bush, I think he's a criminal and a traitor ... that makes me his enemy.

Is this why you are using scare tactics and exaggerating something such as military personel that are dedicated to emergency reponse on foreign soil? So the government gets slammed for not responded quickly enough, or having dedicated units for response in the past. Now the government gets slammed for having dedicated units.

quote:

Since he said he would chase his enemies to hell and back, I think being a bit paranoid will suit me better than burying my head in the sand and pretending there's a guy in office right now who hasn't been drunk with power for the last 7 years.

Be observant and informed, not paranoid. As has been pointed out, if Bush or any President wanted to do anything that nefarious, there are plenty of military bases all over the country.

quote:

So, forgive me if I don't feel protected. I feel betrayed. I have neither trust nor faith in the current administration and I can't wait until Jan 20, 2009 when, hopefully, the reigns will be handed over to someone else.

Your emotions concerning the admin will change when there is a change in Presidency? Those same military people will still be there.

quote:

If past history is any indication .. no one.

No one where? I thought much better of you than to fear monger and exaggerate like you have.

I do not like Bush. I do not like most politicians. I am always untrusting of the government first, and see for myself second. I like the idea of having a dedicated force for disater relief.

"But with the new unit, commanders know they have forces that are properly trained for the challenges of disaster relief. "

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Post #: 35

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 1:08:52 PM

MasterVirago

Posts: 103
Joined: 10/11/2008
Status: offline

I believe the issues is most people would rather they be in Iraq, with our National Guard member being brought back home and trained to handle the situation. (The operative word being Nationationl not International)

Another point being made, is that our present administration has learned to 'stretch' and reinterpret the authority in ways probably never imagined by our founding fathers. 4000 troops ready to assist in a civilian emergency does not bother me. The fact that George W Bush presently has the authority to define what constitutes a civilian emergency make me a little jittery.

And let's be honest, America's histroy is not squeaking clean. There are many instances of outrageous civil abuse at the hands of govt and military, and citizens as well. What you call paranoia, I call plausibilities.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 36

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 1:12:39 PM

shatteredplaster

Posts: 47
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: NY
Status: offline

...again, after reading the posts on here I really have to wonder about some of you.

Blackwater USA is used for security purposes...yes, this is true; however, they also specialize in many other fields as well and work in conjunction with organizations such as KBR. While I was there I saw members of that "mercenary army" who were handing out food and administering field medicine in the absence of proper facilities. The people I saw down there along with myself acted compassionately and like true professionals. They confiscated weaponry from people who were not authorized to have it, and by they I mean the US Army, the Sherrif's Department, and private security personnel. And by people, I mean people who were looting (not food and supplies) and firing shots at Coast Guard helicopters and rescuers...so I think that's a valid reason to "relieve them" of their firearm - don't you?

The only people who were acting out of line were the news media personnel who refused to get out of everyones' way and weren't reporting the complete truth about things, and some of the people who remained down there for nefarious reasons. Those who were stuck down there were grateful to see us, I assure you...and we treated them as best we could with what we had.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 37

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 1:13:33 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Does it really scare you or are you just using the word scare to show concern?

I choose my words carefully to express myself.

quote:

What rights have you tried to actually use that has been absolutely suppressed?

If that's a 'generic' you: the suspension of Habeus Corpus, ex-post facto laws set into place, the right to petition the government for a redress of grievance and various other violations of the First ammendment, the Fourth ammendment, the Fifth ammendment, the Sixth ammendment, the Seventh ammendment, the Eigth ammendment, the Ninth ammendment and the Tenth ammendment and other parts of the articles and ammendments contained within the Constitution of the US. Have you even read the Patriot Act? Seriously. That's a valid question coming from someone who has read it twice and can't understand how anyone else who had ever read it could even begin to defend it.

quote:

Is this why you are using scare tactics and exaggerating something such as military personel that are dedicated to emergency reponse on foreign soil?

Scare tactics? Because I do not trust the current administration not to violate the Posse Comitatus Act given the fact that Bush has zero qualms about violating numerous other laws? Kudo's to you for being so trusting. My trust is a little harder to garner.

Last time I looked, the troops in question are on US soil, not foreign soil and they are doing the job of the National Guard while the National Guard is off in Iraq. Guardsmen who are supposed to be here in case of 'national' disaster. Guardsman are only supposed to be used on foreign soil in the event there are no other resources. Obviously, there are at least 4,000 other resources.

Oh wait, that's already a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. My bad.

quote:

So the government gets slammed for not responded quickly enough, or having dedicated units for response in the past. Now the government gets slammed for having dedicated units.

No, I did not slam the government for having dedicated units. I slammed them for the 'type' of dedicated units.

quote:

Be observant and informed, not paranoid.

I'm amazingly well informed. It comes from reading and studying on my own rather than trust what other people have to tell me. I don't even like kool-aid much less drink it. As I told another poster .. I'd rather be a bit paranoid than stick my head in the sand and pretend that everyone around me is singing kumbaya. You, of course, can do as you like.

quote:

As has been pointed out, if Bush or any President wanted to do anything that nefarious, there are plenty of military bases all over the country.

That just makes me feel so much better.

quote:

Your emotions concerning the admin will change when there is a change in Presidency? Those same military people will still be there.

No, not unless and until the Patriot Act is repealed and our leaders stop violating the law.

quote:

No one where? I thought much better of you than to fear monger and exaggerate like you have.

Disaster preparedness (including hurricane) was two years in the making prior to Katrina's landfall. Two years. The huge bungle that was, I think, speaks for itself.

quote:

I do not like Bush. I do not like most politicians. I am always untrusting of the government first, and see for myself second. I like the idea of having a dedicated force for disater relief.

Okay, so we have different opinions on what that 'dedicated force' means. You think it's for disaster relief and I only 'hope' that's what it's for.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 38

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 1:33:42 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

What rights have you tried to actually use that has been absolutely suppressed?

...perhaps a poorly chosen set of words, but do you really feel that only the rights that are used regulary are important? The right to a speedy trial doesn't usually affect law abiding citizens, but that doesn't mean it can be safely taken away.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 39

RE: Combat Brigade ready on US soil.. WTF?? - 10/24/2008 1:41:20 PM

shatteredplaster

Posts: 47
Joined: 10/22/2007
From: NY
Status: offline

quote:

If that's a 'generic' you: the suspension of Habeus Corpus, ex-post facto laws set into place, the right to petition the government for a redress of grievance and various other violations of the First ammendment, the Fourth ammendment, the Fifth ammendment, the Sixth ammendment, the Seventh ammendment, the Eigth ammendment, the Ninth ammendment and the Tenth ammendment and other parts of the articles and ammendments contained within the Constitution of the US. Have you even read the Patriot Act? Seriously. That's a valid question coming from someone who has read it twice and can't understand how anyone else who had ever read it could even begin to defend it.

If you're talking about EPWs, they didn't have those rights to begin with...you did. Cut it out...

It's funny that you bring up all of these things and yet I guarantee you if I asked you on the spot what all of them were you wouldn't be able to tell me. Has your right to Habeas Corpus been denied recently? Meaning you were jailed and convicted of a crime and denied the right to challenge and appeal that conviction? Have you been convicted of a crime that you committed before it was even a crime? Since you are typing on here I can only assume that your First Amendment rights are still intact. Nobody has told you that you can't speak your mind, practice your religion, etc. Did somebody break into your home and confiscate something of yours without a warrant? Were you pulled over and searched without cause? Have you been arrested without being told of the charges against you? During a trial were you compelled to bear witness against yourself or reveal incriminating evidence against yourself? Were you denied the right to a speedy trial and was it held in private so no citizen could witness it? (Since every criminal trial has a jury...you couldn't possibly be talking about a suspension of trial by jury. I'm also sure that when you're arrested you're immediately told what you're being charged with and if you aren't, you have the right to ask). Have you been arrested and told that you may not face your accuser in court? Were you denied the right to be represented by a lawyer or represent yourself?

I'm going to stop at the 6th Amendment because it's obvious that your rights are still intact and that you are doing nothing more than smacking a hornet's nest with a stick just to see them buzz around. Again...cut it out.

< Message edited by shatteredplaster -- 10/24/2008 1:46:07 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 40

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