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ORIGINAL: philosophy

....wooohoooo.....you may be in for a bit of trouble..........i know you only have 20 posts here, so you may not know Bita's rep......however for those of us that do, well, i'm making popcorn.

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

....wooohoooo.....you may be in for a bit of trouble..........i know you only have 20 posts here, so you may not know Bita's rep......however for those of us that do, well, i'm making popcorn.

I look forward to it.  :)

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

....wooohoooo.....you may be in for a bit of trouble..........i know you only have 20 posts here, so you may not know Bita's rep......however for those of us that do, well, i'm making popcorn.

I look forward to it.  :)

...if you haven't already, i'd suggest you prepare by reading the Patriot Act.

http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

(edited to add link to the Act, which i'm now gouing to read too)

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster

It's funny that you bring up all of these things and yet I guarantee you if I asked you on the spot what all of them were you wouldn't be able to tell me. 

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Has your right to Habeas Corpus been denied recently?  Meaning you were jailed and convicted of a crime and denied the right to challenge and appeal that conviction?  Have you been convicted of a crime that you committed before it was even a crime?  Since you are typing on here I can only assume that your First Amendment rights are still intact.  Nobody has told you that you can't speak your mind, practice your religion, etc.  Did somebody break into your home and confiscate something of yours without a warrant?  Were you pulled over and searched without cause?  Have you been arrested without being told of the charges against you?  During a trial were you compelled to bear witness against yourself or reveal incriminating evidence against yourself?  Were you denied the right to a speedy trial and was it held in private so no citizen could witness it?  (Since every criminal trial has a jury...you couldn't possibly be talking about a suspension of trial by jury.  I'm also sure that when you're arrested you're immediately told what you're being charged with and if you aren't, you have the right to ask).  Have you been arrested and told that you may not face your accuser in court?  Were you denied the right to be represented by a lawyer or represent yourself?

I'm going to stop at the 6th Amendment because it's obvious that your rights are still intact and that you are doing nothing more than smacking a hornet's nest with a stick just to see them buzz around.  Again...cut it out.

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster


Nvm...it's not letting me post the Library of Congress site.  *slaps CM*

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

It's that whole 'you're either with us or against us' mentality and the signatories on the Patriot act, which have absolutely suppressed my rights as a citizen.

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

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ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf


Does it really scare you or are you just using the word scare to show concern?

I choose my words carefully to express myself.

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What rights have you tried to actually use that has been absolutely suppressed?

If that's a 'generic' you: the suspension of Habeus Corpus, ex-post facto laws set into place, the right to petition the government for a redress of grievance and various other violations of the First ammendment, the Fourth ammendment, the Fifth ammendment, the Sixth ammendment, the Seventh ammendment, the Eigth ammendment, the Ninth ammendment and the Tenth ammendment and other parts of the articles and ammendments contained within the Constitution of the US.  Have you even read the Patriot Act? Seriously. That's a valid question coming from someone who has read it twice and can't understand how anyone else who had ever read it could even begin to defend it.

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Is this why you are using scare tactics and exaggerating something such as military personel that are dedicated to emergency reponse on foreign soil?

Scare tactics? Because I do not trust the current administration not to violate the Posse Comitatus Act given the fact that Bush has zero qualms about violating numerous other laws? Kudo's to you for being so trusting. My trust is a little harder to garner.

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Last time I looked, the troops in question are on US soil, not foreign soil and they are doing the job of the National Guard while the National Guard is off in Iraq. Guardsmen who are supposed to be here in case of 'national' disaster. Guardsman are only supposed to be used on foreign soil in the event there are no other resources. Obviously, there are at least 4,000 other resources.  Oh wait, that's already a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. My bad.

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So the government gets slammed for not responded quickly enough, or having dedicated units for response in the past. Now the government gets slammed for having dedicated units.

No, I did not slam the government for having dedicated units. I slammed them for the 'type' of dedicated units.

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Be observant and informed, not paranoid.

I'm amazingly well informed. It comes from reading and studying on my own rather than trust what other people have to tell me. I don't even like kool-aid much less drink it. As I told another poster .. I'd rather be a bit paranoid than stick my head in the sand and pretend that everyone around me is singing kumbaya. You, of course, can do as you like.

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As has been pointed out, if Bush or any President wanted to do anything that nefarious, there are plenty of military bases all over the country.

That just makes me feel so much better.

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Your emotions concerning the admin will change when there is a change in Presidency? Those same military people will still be there.

No, not unless and until the Patriot Act is repealed and our leaders stop violating the law.

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No one where? I thought much better of you than to fear monger and exaggerate like you have.

Disaster preparedness (including hurricane) was two years in the making prior to Katrina's landfall. Two years. The huge bungle that was, I think, speaks for itself.

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I do not like Bush. I do not like most politicians. I am always untrusting of the government first, and see for myself second. I like the idea of having a dedicated force for disater relief.

Okay, so we have different opinions on what that 'dedicated force' means. You think it's for disaster relief and I only 'hope' that's what it's for.

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

You have no idea to whom you are writing and.. you would be wrong. I'm a Constitutionalist and I know it forwards, backwards and sideways and could recite much of it off the top of my head so don't even go there.

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Have you read the Patriot Act?

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Do you even know it's actually an acronym?

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Have you read the Presidential signatories?

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The HSPD supplement and all it's cross-referenced materials?

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How much legislation have you read?

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You know what sort of bills are being passed by Congress and signed by the President? I await your answer with baited breath.

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So, you are saying that it doesn't matter that laws have been violated because I haven't had them effect me personally? It doesn't matter if I may have family members to whom it's happened?

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That I may have family members who have died in another useless, stupid war? Just sit back, don't care about what's going on in the rest of the world as long as my bubble isn't personally shattered?

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I guess if I had a 'me, me, me' mentality, I could understand you. I'm not, however, the center of the Universe and this is a stain on the country which I love.

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The Patriot Act has had a direct impact on one of my nephews.

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I've already had one war that has taken the life of my favorite uncle. I currently have two cousins and an in-law serving in the military, one of my cousins is in Kuwait and the other, I believe, is in Afghanistan, career soldiers both and I'm as proud of them as I can be.

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Your attempts to sugar coat something which has no excuse for even existing brings me to the conclusion that you are clueless on what's going on, haven't read the Patriot Act and don't understand that possessing a right is the right .. violating it is a crime.

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster


........to say that it's a "useless, stupid war," betrays their service and diminishes their efforts. 

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ORIGINAL: philosophy

.....still chunking through the Patriot Act here, i'm not at all used to reading this sort of stuff, i'm not American (so i keep having to look things up), and it's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to read. So, bear with me on that point, hopefully by the end of the weekend i'll be finished.

However, i have to disagree with the (admittedly small) part of what you posted above and that i've quoted here. 

i draw a distincition between the war in Afghanistan and the one in Iraq. Afghanistan actively supported AQ, so while i'm never going to be comfortable with any war, i see that particular ebgagement as being justified. Iraq is a whole new kettle of fish.

Politicians started the war in Iraq, not members of the armed services. Politicians blatantly lied about the reasons for going to Iraq. It doesn't make the US any safer. It doesn't make the region any more stable. It doesn't discourage terrorism. Therefore it is a useless, stupid war.   
However, those members of the armed services who fight it are neither useless or stupid. With a tiny number of exceptions they are honourable, selfless people.

i'd argue that conflating a criticism of a war in general with a value judgement of those who fight it, is disinegenuous. i'd also argue that suggesting that a criticism of politicians is somehow a criticism of soldiers is actually unpatriotic. Patriotism is not best described as 'my country, right or wrong'.......i'd argue it is best described as 'my country, my responsibility whether it is right or wrong'.

• U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM) was established Oct. 1, 2002 to provide command and control of Department of Defense (DoD) homeland defense efforts and to coordinate defense support of civil authorities.
  
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  USNORTHCOM consolidates under a single unified command existing missions that were previously executed by other DoD organizations. This provides unity of command, which is critical to mission accomplishment.
  
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  Civil service employees and uniformed members representing all service branches work at USNORTHCOM’s headquarters located at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, Colo.

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Samuel Browning

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I'm feeling poetic so I'll just say, the meaning is not in the arguments on the hill but it is given by those who fight in the trenches.

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It's like when people say that "we're fighting for oil."  Says who?  I certainly didn't and I can safely say that the majority of people overseas could care less about oil.  Did I want to go to Iraq?  No, I wanted to be in Afghanistan...but that wasn't the hand I was dealt - same deal with many others who went through the country.

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So, because you claim the war is "stupid, and useless," that's it?  That's what it boils down to...the opinion of those who have never put boots to sand and rounds downrange?  I can't believe it and I won't.

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Tell my friend's family that what he believed in meant nothing.  Tell his friends at 1/9 USMC that he fought for nothing and that they are wasting their time.  I'm sure they'd appreciate it...

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ORIGINAL: HunterS

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When you consider the average brigade strength, usually 2 to five regiments, or about 4000 men, it is highly probable that the unit will have to dig into reserve and guard forces to make up the compliment.

I have been out of the service for a while but if memory serves me right.
squad=13 men
platoon=4 squads
company=5 platoons
batallion =5 companies
regiment =3 to 5 Batalions
division=2 or more regiments
corps=2 or more divisions
army=2 or more corps
quick math says that a regiment is between 3,000 and 5,000 men
Two to five regiments would be somewhere between a minimum of 6,000 men and a maximum of
25,000 men.
H.

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ORIGINAL: shatteredplaster

I would really like to clarify something which I find a little annoying in this thread.  We are not here to suppress your rights as a citizen, we are here to protect you and give you aid.  I say 'we,' because I am a veteran and actually went down to New Orleans after hurricane Katrina to assist the local authorities and aid in Search and Rescue.  At any given moment you have what's called QRF (Quick Reaction/Response Forces), that's all this Brigade is.  The 82nd Airborne out of Ft. Bragg is one such unit.

I'm pretty sure that there are only a few specialties that deal with Combat...and those are Infantry, Field Artillery, Special Forces...etc.  The rest are jobs like medicine, mechanic, HVAC repair, and electronics.  If there's a hurricane, who do you think is going to be sent in...Field Artillery?  Get a grip...

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I suggest you do a tad more research. The QRF is the armys answer to the navy SEALS  Only on a larger scale meaning they have more troops.  Don't kid yourself there are trained to be stone killers.

BadOne

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Four thousand Troops all in uniform wouldn't be much of a match for four thousand heavily armed civilians *not* in uniform now would they?
I could pop off 4 or 5 of them from a distance before they even knew they were taking fire.
Then 4 or 5 the next day, or week or month.
Much ado about nothing.

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shattered..
I have nothing but respect and admiration for the troops.  this does NOT mean that I think we have any business in Iraq.