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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:27:13 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
Kittin, so help me god, if you start a new thread on the social construction of race<snip>

Guilty as charged - there was an epic just like that in the summer of 2007

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1181582/mpage_1/tm.htm .

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:27:13 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
It seems like there are white folks who are quite happy to have their privlidge and don't want to be reminded of the consequences of that privlidge.

Of course! Because we should all live in a world where everyone sees things the same ways you do. We should all be like you! If we don't agree with the idea that we should feel "guility" because of someone's elses idea of "perception of benefits" because of our race, then we are just not as "right" or "enlightened".

Everyone should be liberal. Thank you for your "thought policing".

quote:

I can't help them. Neither can you. We can only wait until they die off (from natural causes) and a new and better enlightened generation takes over.

I could take this as an a suggestion of harm towards myself because of my political views and a wish for my death.

However, since....

a) I am not going to condemn you because of assumption.
b) I beleive you have the right to express your viewpoints and opinions no matter how offensive I find them.

...I am not going to.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 10/30/2008 8:29:22 AM >

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:28:38 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you don't want censorship unless it is censoring speech that you find intolerable.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am trying to tentatively argue in favour of responsible free speech and of possible legal consequences for inciting violence and hatred towards others.

censorship
The use of state or group power to control freedom of expression

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:29:01 AM

giveeverything

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
Kittin, so help me god, if you start a new thread on the social construction of race<snip>

Guilty as charged - there was an epic just like that in the summer of 2007 http://www.collarchat.com/m_1181582/mpage_1/tm.htm .

I saw the tshirts for that: I survived the CM debate on the social construction of race and all I got was this lousy tshirt. (if you think I'm reading that thread, you're crazy)!

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:30:57 AM

kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Because then it's not free.

Surely someone as smart of you can understand the opposition to "freedom" that "restrictions" has.

Surely, someone as smart as you can understand that freedom comes with responsibilities? It's one of the biggest clichés.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:31:19 AM

JustDarkness

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people don't need race to hate/dislike eachother it seems

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:46:26 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Because then it's not free.

Surely someone as smart of you can understand the opposition to "freedom" that "restrictions" has.

Surely, someone as smart as you can understand that freedom comes with responsibilities? It's one of the biggest clichés.

Sorry, not going to allow you to detract from the issue by hiding your censorship behind some notion of individual responsibility.

Using government laws and sanctions to control what people can say or not say is still censorship.

It's just cenorship dressed up to look like "making people responsible for their actions" instead of what it really is which is "punishing people for saying it"

Once you cross the line to sending people to jail for voicing their racist opinions, because it might "incite others to violence", then sending people to jail for inciting violence or civil disorder against the country or government is just one step away.

And that's why we have the First Amendment.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:47:23 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you don't want censorship unless it is censoring speech that you find intolerable.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am trying to tentatively argue in favour of responsible free speech

and of possible legal consequences for inciting violence and hatred towards others.

How do we begin to define "responsible"? Racial slurs? Sexist remarks? General name-calling? Telling someone they should die? What is acceptable and /or non-acceptable, offensive and/or non-offensive, hateful and/or non-hateful??

The thing with free speech is that we either have it or we don't. If we have censorship, then it's no longer free speech.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:50:26 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

If we have censorship, then it's no longer free speech.

there is a middle way also
Overhere you can say anything..unless it keeps continuing... damaging people with out proof
free speech is propably not meant as....hurting some one so it effects him in a negative way

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:52:55 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
The thing with free speech is that we either have it or we don't. If we have censorship, then it's no longer free speech.

I disagree - there is a margin for nuance in there. It works elsewhere, and does not make a society any less 'free'.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:54:14 AM

giveeverything

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
The thing with free speech is that we either have it or we don't. If we have censorship, then it's no longer free speech.

K (may I call you K?), you are fighting a losing battle. It's best to just sit back and wait for armagedin (sp?). I'll be the one on the pouch with the gin and tonic if you want to come watch with me.

I disagree - there is a margin for nuance in there. It works elsewhere, and does not make a society any less 'free'.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 8:57:13 AM

xxblushesxx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee

No offense...but is it to be taken into consideration that it was done in Kentucky? i wasnt thrilled with the Palin thing...but this offends me and makes me sad in a much deeper way.

I can personally guarantee you that there are ignorant *sses in every state, and in every country.
The people I come into contact with every day (in Kentucky) are educated, articulate, thoughtful and insightful.
But there's obviously other types here as well.

When we watched this on the news last night the guy said it was not because O'Bama is black. He said he has a nephew who is "half black" who he loves very much.

I still think it is in very poor taste.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:00:08 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
The thing with free speech is that we either have it or we don't. If we have censorship, then it's no longer free speech.

K (may I call you K?), you are fighting a losing battle. It's best to just sit back and wait for armagedin (sp?). I'll be the one on the pouch with the gin and tonic if you want to come watch with me.

I disagree - there is a margin for nuance in there. It works elsewhere, and does not make a society any less 'free'.

giveeverything:

Why do you call it a "losing battle"? Why view it as a "battle" at all?

Why can't it just be legitimate debate involving intelligent people with different viewpoints?

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:00:29 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

If we have censorship, then it's no longer free speech.

there is a middle way also
Overhere you can say anything..unless it keeps continuing... damaging people with out proof
free speech is propably not meant as....hurting some one so it effects him in a negative way

That's called "slander" and its a far cry from what we are talking about here.

Nobody is suggesting that "lying" should not have consequences or spreading misinformation is okay.

This is about opinion.

"Barrack Obama should not be president, because he murdered a small child" is not the same thing as "I think Barrack Obama should be hung, because he's black."

"I think Barrack Obama should be hung, because he's black" is an opinion. It's an idea. It's a thought. It's a puff of air from my vocal cords.

It's not a fact that can be either true or false. It just simply "is".

The last time I checked opinions and ideas don't hurt people. It's actions thats do.

If someone attempts to hurt Barrack Obama, they should be punished for their actions, not the thoughts that came before the action.

Once we start punishing people for having thoughts and expressing them without taking those thoughts to actions, then say goodbye to a free society.

Living in a society where I can go to jail for "inciting rape" simply because I thought and said out loud "Man, VivaciousSub is hot. I would love to throw her down and..." is a pretty scary place.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:01:46 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
giveeverything:

Why do you call it a "losing battle"? Why view it as a "battle" at all?

Why can't it just be legitimate debate involving intelligent people with different viewpoints?

Because everybody has to think like giveeverything does.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:04:07 AM

Aileen1968

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But that seems to be some people's Utopia. a place where everyone gets along and there's no violence, no need for money, everyone equal and happy, everyone loving everyone else...

Even on an island that wouldn't happen. It's not realistic or human nature.
Lord of the Flies anyone?

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:04:23 AM

JustDarkness

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quote:

The last time I checked opinions and ideas don't hurt people. It's actions thats do.

where did you check? ;)

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:05:16 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

The last time I checked opinions and ideas don't hurt people. It's actions thats do.

where did you check? ;)

I'm envisioning a thousand mental bullets piercing your body and killing you.

You still okay?

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:05:51 AM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

The last time I checked opinions and ideas don't hurt people. It's actions thats do.

where did you check? ;)

Don't opinions and ideas tend to lead to actions?
Not always, but often enough.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 9:07:05 AM

kittinSol

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MadRabbit - have you looked at other countries' legislation on the matter? I feel you're jumping the gun on a principle without reflecting on the possibilities that might allow for progress without hindering your freedoms. Have you ever been Jewish in a country where neo-nazis groups try to intimidate students in their own universities? I was bloody thankful for the laws that protected my freedom and my right to exist away from insults and threats of violence.

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