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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:35:42 PM   
AquaticSub


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Something can in horrible taste and still be protected by free speech. Nazis are allowed to march peacefully past Jewish neighborhoods - and they should be. No matter how uncomfortable it makes me with my Star of David, people are perfectly free to wear Nazi costumes to Halloween parties and anywhere else they want. MR is right - hanging politicans in effigy is a LONG standing tradition (Guy Fawk's Day anyone?). Even being an Obama supporter and giving my time to help his campaign, Obama being black doesn't mean it was intended as a reference to lynching just as calling a woman politican dumb may not be intended as surpressing women in general.

The only way for Obama to be equal is for us to accept that his being a politican means that he will suffer the same attacks as white politicans. When we start to restrict expression that makes us uncomfortable, we risk losing our freedoms. Freedom is difficult. It's very easy to live in a place where everyone must think a certain way, it's just a matter of living in a place where the laws suit you. Living in a place where everyone can live and believe as they want to, no matter how badly it turns your gut, is much harder.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 10/29/2008 9:36:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:37:12 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: VivaciousSub

I love you!


Well, check your email and show some love sometime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VivaciousSub
I am seriously disturbed by the number of posters I've seen leaping to these types of conclusions. I'm against the 'hate crime' designation altogether as I believe people should be punished for their actions, not their thoughts. Where does it stop? Remember Minority Report?


Ironically, it's the same people who bash McCain in these political threads for "shooting from the hip".

Apparently, jumping to conclusions is okay when it creates a racial issue that's in favor of their candidate.
There is quite a difference between putting forth an opinion here,whether or not the poster's opinion is informed,and sitting in the Oval Office "shooting from the hip"....surely even you can appreciate that fact MadBunny

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:37:23 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
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Status: offline 		Most all crimes especially violent crimes are hate crimes.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:37:47 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
So if someone painted swastikas on a temple or something horrible about Jesus on a church or something horrible about you on your home/car,......that would be merely vandalism?


Can what was written have multiple meanings?

Is the motivation to vandalize and not to promote hate?

"No" to both questions and it would be a hate crime.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:39:26 PM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
So if someone painted swastikas on a temple or something horrible about Jesus on a church or something horrible about you on your home/car,......that would be merely vandalism?


Can what was written have multiple meanings?

Is the motivation to vandalize and not to promote hate?

"No" to both questions and it would be a hate crime.
My god, you are either naive or live under a rock.  Or, you are so entrenched in your ideology that you can't look past it at all.  I have to escape this nightmare of a thread before my head explodes.  My god kittin, did you start this and then bail? 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:39:55 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

There is quite a difference between putting forth an opinion here,whether or not the poster's opinion is informed,and sitting in the Oval Office "shooting from the hip"....surely even you can appreciate that fact MadBunny


Given that you fight racism with racial prejudice and condemn a man for actions you are not above, I appreciate the fact of your lack of consistency.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:41:01 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
So if someone painted swastikas on a temple or something horrible about Jesus on a church or something horrible about you on your home/car,......that would be merely vandalism?


Can what was written have multiple meanings?

Is the motivation to vandalize and not to promote hate?

"No" to both questions and it would be a hate crime.
My god, you are either naive or live under a rock.  Or, you are so entrenched in your ideology that you can't look past it at all.  I have to escape this nightmare of a thread before my head explodes.  My god kittin, did you start this and then bail? 


If judging crimes based on their unique facts and context is naive, I hope I stay naive for the rest of my life.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/29/2008 9:43:10 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
So if someone painted swastikas on a temple or something horrible about Jesus on a church or something horrible about you on your home/car,......that would be merely vandalism?


Can what was written have multiple meanings?

Is the motivation to vandalize and not to promote hate?

"No" to both questions and it would be a hate crime.
My god, you are either naive or live under a rock.  Or, you are so entrenched in your ideology that you can't look past it at all.  I have to escape this nightmare of a thread before my head explodes.  My god kittin, did you start this and then bail? 


No. It's thinking along one of the primary foundations of this county - "Innocent till proven guilty". One must prove the greater offense. America used to operate under "Guilty till proven innocent" but there were some taxes and the King was a dick so we were bad children and, with the help of the French, started out on our own.

In the above, it's probably a hate crime. But it could also be some stupid 15 year old kid who doesn't know anything about Jews or Christians and shouldn't be punished, simply educated.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 5:07:44 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with firm.  Either this  and  the Palin effigy are hate crimes or niether are.  We are days from an election.  It is just as plausible to think it was politically motivated instead of racially.  If this had been done with different timing, then it would be far more logical to assume it was a hate crime.  The timing makes it plausible as a political statement rather than a racially motivated one.
Having said that, I reaffirm my position that we should begin to treat these kinds of things as a threat of violence and prosecute those caught doing them.  Even though the history of this dates back to before this country was a country, it is a threat hiding behind the "free speech" argument. 
Both are hate crimes.  Hanging King George in effigy at the start of the American revolution was a hate crime.  It wasn't done out of love. 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 5:11:53 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
My god kittin, did you start this and then bail? 


Not quite - I started this thread and sleep overcame me when I saw firmhandky start with his nonsensical provocations.

It's not the first time I notice that a few posters seem to have a major hangup because they feel that being white gives them a harder time in our society (which is seriously weird, perverse and twisted to me, but perhaps it's a cultural thing). It's strange that the very people who are usually not on the receiving end of racial 'humour' and expressions of racial hatred should cry in favour of retaining them as a shining example of freedom of expression in this society. It's also strange to me how deaf they are to reason.

Meanwhile, an Ohio asswipe named Mike Lunsford hangs another effigy of Barrack Obama with the explanation that he doesn't want a black president (I am editing the more flowery language). The video of his exploits has been taken out of You Tube.

All this makes me think that this talk of free speech serves as an excuse to express the most violent and dangerous ideologies available to man. I do wonder why people tolerate the intolerable. I am not at all convinced that encouraging public racist discourse is in any way good for our society, but I have faith society is changing towards the better despite of this, and certainly because of it - after all, this election has brought a wind of hope to millions of people, and not just in America either.


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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 5:44:01 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
My god kittin, did you start this and then bail? 


Not quite - I started this thread and sleep overcame me when I saw firmhandky start with his nonsensical provocations.

It's not the first time I notice that a few posters seem to have a major hangup because they feel that being white gives them a harder time in our society (which is seriously weird, perverse and twisted to me, but perhaps it's a cultural thing). It's strange that the very people who are usually not on the receiving end of racial 'humour' and expressions of racial hatred should cry in favour of retaining them as a shining example of freedom of expression in this society. It's also strange to me how deaf they are to reason.

Meanwhile, an Ohio asswipe named Mike Lunsford hangs another effigy of Barrack Obama with the explanation that he doesn't want a black president (I am editing the more flowery language). The video of his exploits has been taken out of You Tube.

All this makes me think that this talk of free speech serves as an excuse to express the most violent and dangerous ideologies available to man. I do wonder why people tolerate the intolerable. I am not at all convinced that encouraging public racist discourse is in any way good for our society, but I have faith society is changing towards the better despite of this, and certainly because of it - after all, this election has brought a wind of hope to millions of people, and not just in America either.



Here, from an "intellectual" you no doubt honor:

“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.”

Firm

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 5:50:49 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		FR:

Gee.  Guess I was on the mark:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Nah, free speech is way overrated. It allows for way too much bullshit being broadcasted. Give me speech restrictions anyday: it's so much more fun.


Firm


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:00:38 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Here, from an "intellectual" you no doubt honor:



For a man who loves telling people they have (I quote)
quote:

ORIGINAL KY
prejudice, and narrow-minded belief in stereotypes.
you certainly seem to indulge in those things freely . Chomsky?! Why, he's a subversive, a radical, and an anti-American . I'm surprised you are quoting him.




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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:12:12 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline 		      
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol



"LEXINGTON, Ky. – A life-sized likeness of Barack Obama was found hanging from a tree with a noose around its neck Wednesday at the University of Kentucky, the second time in about a month such an effigy of the Democratic nominee
was reported on a college campus.
UK spokesman Carl Nathe said the effigy was found Wednesday morning in a high-traffic area between a classroom building and parking garage. Police immediately took it down but released no information about their investigation.
University President Lee Todd said he planned to apologize to the Obama family on behalf of the school and that he is "personally offended and deeply embarrassed by this disgusting episode."
Federal authorities have been notified, Todd said. He said the effigy violates the university's code of ethics and won't be tolerated."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_re_us/obama_effigy_5;_ylt=AmyyzRKQOSw3_KLfMZD_wGwSq594
It's hateful...it goes against the school's policies...it may even be vandalism.  But it shouldn't hold any more weight as a crime than any other act of vandalism.  If there were even statements scrolled on the effigy calling for commiting acts of violence against minorities or women...it would be unlawful to incite a riot or violence, but is it "more" illegal because hatred is what spurs on that behavior?  

It's like Thomas Jefferson's "more perfect union", that always gave me pause...how is something "more" perfect?  There isn't a way to legislate a "more hateful" murder, or "more hateful spousal abuse", a violent act, an act of vandalism...whatever crime committed is criminal enough, without adding to them.  The malicious intent of a criminal act is implied.

Free speech is too precious a right to allow censorship to reign because of the fear of offending certain groups.  If we legislate free speech, we do  everyone- even those that may be offended, a disservice.

~thick-skinned slut
edited to add...
how is it i can adore kittin, and enjoy FirmHand's posts??? Wondering if Sir was right about me...


< Message edited by lronitulstahp -- 10/30/2008 6:16:51 AM >

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:23:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp
how is it i can adore kittin, and enjoy FirmHand's posts???


It's because you can sense how much he adores me too .


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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:33:48 AM   
MadAxeman


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From: UK
Status: offline 		I thought the term 'hate crimes' was used to elevate what could have been described and diminished as grafitti, or damaging one's own property (an image, a national flag) regarding the use of hurtful symbolism. The Obama example surely qualifies as this.

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:47:26 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No, you've got it all wrong. It's a harmless prank, and you'd be a fool and a communist to argue otherwise. 

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:51:04 AM   
MadAxeman


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Status: offline 		I am found out
Can I be the red under your bed?

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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:54:05 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
Can I be the red under your bed?


Rock lobster me, baby.


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RE: Is it a hate crime? Part II. - 10/30/2008 6:57:27 AM   
MadAxeman


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I like it

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