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RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 5:32:21 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2

Ok, if you love somebody and you truely know their needs and desires. 


I am deeply in love with Two people..... and I am not so ego inflated to think I "KNOW" there needs and desires.... I only KNOW what they communicated to me.  The rest is only what I "Think" I know... subtle difference... but to me it's huge when one is talking about communicating effectively.

quote:


Do you not do your best at times to at least meet these needs?


I do my best to meet their needs "when" I choose to meet their needs... But it is not my responsibility to meet their needs!... I don't do Co-Dependency.  I don't seek to make my girls weaker.. I seek to make them stronger... Yeah.. I think Co-dependency is a weakness!!! 

quote:


  TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for meeting your Partners NEEDS? 


As said above... I don't Take Responsibilty for meeting my partners Needs... I Support them in meeting  of there Needs... but My needs are MY responsibility... as their Needs are their Responsibility.  I am Not an Enabler.. unfortunately.. many are.

quote:


I resent the pulled out of context approach that this somehow is Deflecting Responsibility when it's about TAKING RESPONISBILITY for your partner, Taking Responsibility for your relationship with them.


I don't care that you resent it.  Secondly... it is not out of context.   When someone makes manipulative comments such as "if you love me...."  They are in my view trying to shift their responsibility for their needs and their feelings.  My girls understand their Responsibility.. and they also understand that I will deal with them very harshly when they try shifting responsbility.  Hold people accountable for a living... I love doing.  It is something I am responsible for in my work an in my personal relationships.  So.. yes... when they make manipulate comments... I am fullfillig my Responsibility to hang the chain... and hang it hard I do!!!

quote:


Now some people, somehow when the find themselves in a state of LOVE their ability to inflict pain Goes POOF away.  


so I have heard... don't have that problem.. never have!  But it reminds me of the parent that is afraid to hold their child accountable for bad behavior.

quote:


Their partner needs is being negleted.   OH I'm sorry, I can't do that for you anymore because "I LOVE YOU"  this sounds a bit more like a CHEAP Excuse to NOT Take Responsibility for Meeting a Partners Needs.   So you and I are a bit at ODDS over this matter of Taking responsibility.


yup there partners needs are being neglected.... Guess there partners have to make a decision.. keep to the status quo with needs unmeet.... or find another way to deal with the needs.  As I said... the partner is responsible for the needs.  And yeah it sucks when the person fails on there commitment.  yeah..they fail on their responsibility to Suppor there partner in the fulfilllment of their needs.  But in the end.... it's the partners needs and they have to ensure they are fulfilled!!! 

and yes we are at odds... you seem to imply that a Dominant is God when they take the Responsibility to fulfill the submissives needs.  I suppose it does alot of insecure and weak people's egos well to make those grand claims... I guess I am not a Godly Dominant. 

quote:


In terms of Manipulation, people do this to one another on a daily basis!  Hell even the Commercials on TV, shit in fine print in the news papers.  We are surrounded in a world of Manipulation.  There is Manipulation Good and Bad in my book.   Just the use of the word Manipulation by no means means it's an automatic bad thing.   There have been some interesting posts on this matter before.  Even with the automatic negative connotations involved.


yes there is good and bad manipulation... I never said there wasn't... but I am saying..that saying things like  "If you love me you would do X"  to me is Bad Manipulation.  End of story.

quote:


If somebody asserts a request upon another person for anything, it's with the hope that the request may be granted.   OH crap, I ask my neighbor if I can borrow their lawnmower because mine just broke.  He says Yes.   There I just Manipulated a bad situation in my favor for the time being!  I get my Grass Cut.  Plus, I don't mind returning the favor.   Reality TV, shows like Fear Factor.. Manipulation, people doing damn near anything to get in the spot light on TV and make a few Dollars.  Manipulation occurs on many levels.   This is how I view manipulation in many regards.  It's not always a bad thing and it's not always a good thing either.


Clearly what I consider is manipulation is far different than what you consider is manipulation.


quote:


Still back to taking responsibility!  If somebody gets involved with a Masochistic partner and is not prepared or can't meet their partners needs, they should be responsible for it.  Either meet their partners needs or rethink the whole relationship itself if need be.


And that also goes to the partner that isn't getting their needs met in the first place... but manipulating a person to get them met is not going to do well for the relationship in the long term.

quote:


OH Baby, I'm sorry I can no longer spank your ass because I fell in Love with you, seems to me more like a Cop out if I ever heard one.   If Love is the real reason that is standing in the way, one should think for a moment, that if they Loved their partner So DAMN fucking much, they should be able to Inflict Pain upon them.  Not use it as a excuse to not do so.   This to me, is just an indicator of some mental hang-up or social conditioning that needs to be challenged within a person.   This is my own personal view on the matter.


it is just as much a cop out and manipulation  to see.. "I am not spanking you because I fell in love with you" as it is to say "if you love me you will spank me"  BOTH are shifting responsibility!!!  Both are not taking Responsibility! 

quote:


It appears we have a difference on perspectives or understanding going on. 


seems to me you don't have a clue of what I actually said... or a few others.  Seems to me there is some underlying issues here that you are not speaking or saying anything about.... this all strikes me as very personal to you. 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 5:41:23 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Hang in there, Dude.  You're not alone here.  I heard you.

Just for those who won't understand the players without a program, let Me point out a couple of things.  I happen to be a sadist.  I enjoy inflicting pain.  About a year and a half ago, I met clip, who happens to be a masochist.  We started out as play partners.  I enjoyed beating him and he enjoyed being beaten.  All good.

Fast forward a bit.  A little later, clip earned the status of being My collared submissive.  By then, I certainly had affection for him.  As that affection turned more towards love, I did hit that little stumbling block.  Now, not only did I care about him as a bottom, but as My sub as well.  In other words, I was literally hurting someone I loved.  This was a little more important to My emotional side than the other hurdles I experienced in accepting My sadism.  Sure, I always cared about My bottoms, but the feelings that I had for clip as a sub were stronger than that of a casual play partner.  I wanted to protect him from hurt because I loved him.

Not to pat Myself on the back, but I caught on to this concept rather quickly.  Part of what makes clip and I so compatible in the first place is the fact that he craves pain, very much in the same way that I crave giving it.  As a masochist, it is something he needs.  Very much the same way that, as a submissive, he needs ritual, protocol, and control.  That was what brought us together in the first place.  If I love him, I have to love him for who he is, and that includes that masochist inside of him

So, yes.  I hurt him, because I love him.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 5:49:11 PM   
BLGirl


Posts: 209
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		Well said LadyPact!

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 5:50:10 PM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barelily
This post comes at a good time.
I have a real life friend whos in a relationship with a dom type ....shes a pain slut. He can't come to terms with this and is afraid of hurting her, it's destroying their relationship to the point that shes seeking what she needs elsewhere. So far she hasn't actually had sex with anyone else but she does have a mistress she sees occasionally. I'm really hoping that he at least gives this some exploration before it's too late.
I'm going to show your post to her in the hopes it sheds a differant aspect of light on her. Thank you.


I hope some good can come out of this thread, one cavet to consider is DesFIPs posting to this thread.  It's painfully apparent that this issue is serious enough in some relationships, enough for them to result in ending even.  Often at times, this can be avoided if people step outside of themselves and see things from a different light.   However even us DOMs have limits that we don't dare cross due to damaging our own psyche.  Perhaps if one can mentally process things differently there is no real or great damage done to ones own psyche or sense of self.   This is a little bit of a tricky/touchy territory.  However, if a relationship can be saved and not distroyed.  If a relationship can be enhanced and not diminished as the result of somebody reading this post, so much the better.

What else is there to loose in a relationship already on the Rocks?  To simply walk away at least not having tried to do everything there is to save it?  People make real emotional investments in one another.  It's clear that in the case of a DOM who loves a submissive and is having an issue hurting her, that he's made an emotional investment.  What happens to him, should she walk away from him?  It's going to hurt like Hell, that's what is going to happen.  That's pretty much a no brainer.

There are some things I have posted on this thread, that have been a bit of pissing match between me and other users, and well.. One some issues, I'm not changing my position on.   However, DesFIP's posting again is something that is totally worth wild when exploring and addressing this issue.

Making adjustments to fillfull a partners specific needs, by no means, implies negative manipulation.  However an issue like this, if not resolved actually means the end of the relationship itself.  Somebody might as well said "If you can't hurt me, I'm going to find somebody else who will meet my needs"... That's basically the fundamental Blunt Honest Truth to the matter in many cases.    Let me rephrase it more nicely "You not hurting me, is distroying our relationships, do you know what this means?"

My apologies to others if I appear to be some mean bastard of a Daddy, if I'm coming across too manipulative, controling, demanding, or even as a bit of a hard ass in my views or stance.  I mean nobody any harm, It's not my intention to piss off the world, but if I have stepped on some toes in the process here, which it seems or feels that I have.  It's been from the stand point of having my views and thoughts challenged.   If you think less of me in the end result so be it. 

I will have to express this, DesFIP challenged the topic itself, was able to find a possible flaw or fault in the things I was expressing without engaging in snarky remarks, judgements, or even insults.

Yes, I do have a maso reset button, yes what I'm expressing is a form or sort of manipulation.  Some of the attacks that have been launched my way, HELL are even valid ones.  A Dom using Manipulation, who could have Thunk about that one?  Even the very nature of starting this thread was with the Hope of Manipulating the stirring of some thought process in people.  Am I manipulating this very moment while I type, you betcha I sure am. :-)   I admit to it as well.  Actually, it should be a pretty much of a no brainer that I am.  It's pretty obvious, why the Hell should I hide it?

Oh wait, this must place me on par, with being some evil overlord manipulating people attempting to take over the world.  Love me, Hate me...  What are the song lyrics again to Nirvana's RAPE ME song.

(in reply to Barelily)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 5:51:24 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, ditto.  You can't ever forget what you brought you together in the first place, even after you develop love for each other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLGirl

Well said LadyPact!

(in reply to BLGirl)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 6:46:31 PM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		KnightsofMists,
Thank you for your point by point reply.   I'm not so EGO inflated either to pretend to know all of my partners needs and desires.  However, I'm rather EGO inflated when it comes to knowing their Primary Needs, Wants and Desires.   This is important stuff here.   Somebody who is a Masochistic, well that's Pretty Important Business one should know about.   It falls under the primary knowing of things.  This ain't about what somebody's favorite candy bar is kind of stuff.   Actually, I found myself calling my Girl up on the phone and asking her what her favorite type of Sweet stuff is, and what she hates most.   If I don't know the answer, I pride myself and Yes, I'm EGOtistical about the fact.   I can simply ask and get a straight answer.   Really simple for many of the smaller things, that I don't already know about.

For me, it's always a conscious Choice in regards if I meet anybodys needs, wants or desires.  However, if they are important to me personally, their wants, needs and desires are important to me as much as my own.  Call it the Daddy Dom aspect to my personality.  I never seek to make anybody weaker either, in fact, I look for ways I can help make them stronger as well.  I actually look for ways of doing this too.  Call it part of my own conscious choice to do so.  Now, this is simply me and who I am as a person. 

One thing where we do seem to part hairs on is the whole Co-Dependacy issue, in many regards most D/s relationships are very Co-Dependent.  In fact many relationships are CoDepenent and that's the very nature of many relationships.  I just seperate things out as being CoDependent Healthy and CoDependent unHealthy.   This is how I deal with this issue in a D/s relationship.  There is much that can be read up on this topic of CoDependancy.   It has a bit of BAD rap I'm afraid.  Just like D/s has a bad rap with many feminists.   S&M is a sin according to many religions and other fun stuff.   Pissing on somebody has a bit of a Bad Rap with many people too.

Anyhooo...  D/s and even more so with M/s relationships they tend to become very CoDependent in nature.   In fact, I've literally seen the effects it has upon people as their relationship progress.   Time and Time again, be it lifestyle relationships I have witness before my own eyes, or relationships I myself have been in.   The DOM becomes the Rock, the Anchor, the one in charge.   However, I have always been aware of the trapping of CoDependancy.   Hence where I have made it a point for a submissive to grow and have the ability to make better choices, to actually learn the method to my own madness.   Literally to impart something another human being to help make them stronger.   Not find the first available person after me, in the event the relationship comes to an end.   So I too will break girls of BAD or Unhealthy CoDependent habits.  Make them realize things about themselves, and etc...

However still the fact remains, in a D/s relationship as with other relationships a Mutual CoDependency exists.  Sure, there is a certain amount of weakness but there is also an Amazing amount of strength in it as well.   Then again, we can debate or engage in this topic at great length on some other thread.

Now, It appears I caused a bit of stir with this thread.   "If you love me,..."  basically in short, it was intended as form of plea.  Near the End of my OP I had wrote a group of connected thoughts together.   Case in point where perhaps if I had expressed it as such "If you Love me, then why won't you hurt me",  "If you love me, will you hurt me"... "If you love me, and know I need and desire pain, why won't you hurt me".    It's OK to hurt me, I know you love me, please trust in me that I know you Love me, hurting me is actually showing me that you Love me...

It was my intention to write something from the Masochistic point of view, when they are told, I can not longer hurt your because I Love you. 

Sure, I could have perhaps written or phrased things perhaps a little bit better there, I will admit it.  However, the general message and over all concept to what I'm trying to express, is at risk of being buried over this one Phrase I used in my OP. 

It appears that some people, will spot one little thing, pull it out of context and run amuck with it.   I've been trying to nip this in the ass.   It appears though that some people understand the message that I was trying to convey, they actually read the series of connected thoughts and understood it.

Posting on the message boards is a bit like Politics at times, at any moment somebody can hear one thing you are expressing, pull it totally out of context, drag the whole topic off base, along with the meaning.

This thread is not about.  Hey Girls this is how to use Negative Manipulation to get your DOM to hurt you.   Hey everybody, use a Mindless Guit trip to not be responsible for the fact you are a Masochist.  Good lord...

I've have never had a problem with Love coming into the picture that it's effected me so much that I was no longer able to engage in S&M activities with my partner.  If anything, that Love and deep connection enhances it for me. 

I don't consider me a GODLY Dominant either.  However, I know that I am entrusted with a certain amount of accountablility and responsibility towards my partner (in any relationship).  At times, I have to make choices and decisions in not only my own best interest but others.   This extends to the best interest of any children of my partner in a relationship.   Sure she has to be responsible just as much as well.  However, I can not simply turn to my Girl and say, you know what you are 100% responsible for having your needs, wants and desires met. 

Actually given with the framework of this topic, if I were to express this to a submissive at the time, I would dare think it would be the same as saying "Go find your fix elseware with somebody else as a playmate, or find yourself another DOM altogether, because Honey I'm not responsible for your needs, wants and desires out of life at all".  Perhaps, more difference between us are coming to light, perhaps not.  I don't honestly know, I'm just honestly expressing my perspective as best as I can here.

In terms of me taking things personally, well.. Mmmmmm.. I have moments when I go on these little things called "Crusades", generally when I read something that touches my heart.  Even if it's something a complete stranger expresses in another thread.  Even more so, when I've read message posts from a number of subs/bottoms that express.  Master no longer can hurt me because he fell in love with me.  Master no longer uses me litle a dirty whore or fucktoy because he fell in love with me. 

I will openly admit, that I do go on little "Crusades" at times, and yes, I'm rather passionate when I take up a cause.  Then again perhaps it's due to the fact I'm an Aquarious. That might explain my attraction to watersports as well.  Mmmm...

It's actually rather ironic, that the issues that are most personal to me, I have written about very impersonally on this message boards.  In facts, I have started whole threads, with myself personally extremely removed from the topic I started, yet it was extremely personal and important to me at the time.  Just a little confusing Tid bit of information I'm tossing out about myself here.

I've also made it a point to make things known of a deep personal nature as well.  Many of these things from the past stand point of view.

For me personally, this topic, my only interest at hand is with the hope of perhaps helping somebody out.  Back to that whole concept of a "Crusade", then again, I guess that's just part of the White Knight that really is not so white and knightly at times.  Still none the less, It feels good to engage in a Crusade now and again.  Even if I take a few punches, a few hits in the process.  Oh wait, did I mention I have a masochistic streak? 

Well, I guess I really have shared a few things that underline me a little here.  Perhaps I have shared with everybody a little too much information about myself and my own issues.  Then again, perhaps there's something more going on.  I'm not puking up everything there is to humanly know about me in a few posts on a message board. 

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 7:02:57 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Whiplash, I've got to agree with Rover, mist and kyra on this.  While what you say sounds reasonable on the surface... most people give in some way in a relationship to please their partner... I don't believe it would work quite so well to the degree that you are stating.  It's one thing to agree to go along on a visit with the in-laws when you don't really feel like it, but quite another to be expected to participate in intimate activities that you don't particularly care for on any kind of ongoing basis as proof of love.

I'm sorry, but if Firm required me to prove to him that I love him by agreeing to something that I didn't enjoy, I might go along for a while, but I guarantee that resentment would build.  On the other hand, I wouldn't want him to do anything that he didn't enjoy, either.  What kinda fun would that be... knowing he wasn't really liking what he was doing?

Either way, as kyra said, it would be emotional manipulation.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 7:09:20 PM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		Not alot to think about...
 
Is she asks me to hurt her I will...
 
Even is she doesn`t its gonna happen...
 
Love has nothing to do with it...

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 7:38:57 PM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Whiplash, I've got to agree with Rover, mist and kyra on this.  While what you say sounds reasonable on the surface... most people give in some way in a relationship to please their partner... I don't believe it would work quite so well to the degree that you are stating.  It's one thing to agree to go along on a visit with the in-laws when you don't really feel like it, but quite another to be expected to participate in intimate activities that you don't particularly care for on any kind of ongoing basis as proof of love.

I'm sorry, but if Firm required me to prove to him that I love him by agreeing to something that I didn't enjoy, I might go along for a while, but I guarantee that resentment would build.  On the other hand, I wouldn't want him to do anything that he didn't enjoy, either.  What kinda fun would that be... knowing he wasn't really liking what he was doing?

Either way, as kyra said, it would be emotional manipulation.


Good point, that this can lead to resentment in the end.  I'm trying to expressing something that can be explored though.  I was thinking in terms of the context of how I have gotten past partners over the fear and concern of hurting me.  Do you see where I am coming from here?   I was thinking to myself, I have good success in this matter personally.   Perhaps this can help somebody else out.   I'm coming from a place where I have had success in this area.   If I had not had success of if things had not worked out in the area, I would by no means be promoting this or offering this as any form of advice at all on this message board.   It's hard for me to not not share this with other people, in a situation where it's deeply effecting their relationship.  

Mind you, I don't see what I've shared as being the be all, fix all to everybody's situation.  It's something to explore though, at the very least, something that perhaps can be attempted.   DesFIP already pointed out a flaw or situation where my advice just won't work.  I open see and acknowledge this.   In fact, I'm very Thankful she posted and added what she did to this thread.

If however, the same refocusing of my partners mindset helps other people and it pays off, and saves a relationship and there is no long term resentment out of it, So much the better.  The alternative may be the simple Ending of the relationship itself.  I realize that any Dom who loves their submissive has made an emotional investment.  The ending of the relationship may be painful, it may or may not be avoided.   However, if it's a simple internal hang-up that can be overcome with a slight adjustment in the way one thinks or see things.  Awesome, would you not agree?

Again, I had had bad luck myself in getting somebody to inflict pain upon me, I would have never dreamed about making such a post to the message boards here.   It's my own past positive experiences that I feel have some value to somebody out there.  Sure it might not help everybody, but I am certain it applies to some of the cases.   I am certain, what I posted will work for somebody, that perhaps it might be really useful in the long run.   I'm not saying or expressing that this is fool proof way, or that it's even the best way.   However, again, I stress this based upon many of my past experiences this has worked. 

Hell I've gone so far to have them associate the pleasure I recieve from a back massage to that of inflicting pain upon me.  In fact, I have had them give me a back massage, then got them into doing a heavy massage, using knuckles and firsts, with some light pounding upon my back, then working it up to heavier pounding upon my back.  Them knowing 100% all along the way that they were pleasuring me.  Drag into the picture massaging devices... light back pounding, then heavier... Until they are used to the idea of striking my back.  Replace object in hand with flogger, or replace nuckles and fists with flogger.   Well you get the general picture.  Conditioning them to inflict pain upon me, much the same manner how some Dom's get their Submissives to make a sexual connection with pain.   This technique has worked, that I'm outlining here.   It's the same damn principal that we see time and time again posted about on the message boards.

There are other things and techniques that can be used to get somebody warmed up and comfortable with inflicting pain as well.   However, they all center around changing how somebody precieves the pain they are inflicting as being an act of Love and pleasure.  I've had partners make remarks about how much I opened thier eyes to seeing things that they were blind about before.  I've been thanked for this.  Clearly I did something right and it did not cause any great mental trauma in the process.   It all depended upon my partner at the time, how receptive they are or were not to things.   Did I lay there instructing somebody in the art of Body and Back massage with a focus on Manipulating and Conditioning them to inflict pain upon me!  You betcha I did.  Again, I pull no punches when I openly admit to having manipulated things.

Anyhoo... I just wanted to share a little more, Thank you for your post. 

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 8:17:08 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2

One thing where we do seem to part hairs on is the whole Co-Dependacy issue, in many regards most D/s relationships are very Co-Dependent.  In fact many relationships are CoDepenent and that's the very nature of many relationships.  I just seperate things out as being CoDependent Healthy and CoDependent unHealthy.   This is how I deal with this issue in a D/s relationship.  There is much that can be read up on this topic of CoDependancy.   It has a bit of BAD rap I'm afraid.  Just like D/s has a bad rap with many feminists.   S&M is a sin according to many religions and other fun stuff.   Pissing on somebody has a bit of a Bad Rap with many people too.



I don't see or believe that there is such a thing as Healthy Co-Dependency. Oh sure there are Co-dependency that appear to be stable etc... and actually as long as the required choices are being made to maintain this co-dependency it can maintain a status quo.... but as soon as one side of the scale looses alittle of the weight that balances the scales.. the tail spin will be rather evident.   Hence... when people are not getting there needs met in a relationship a Co-dependency dynamic it often becomes an emotional rollercoaster and it's not surprizing that you get emotional manipulation is such situations.  But.. in Inter-dependent dynamics... needs not being met doesn't through the relationship into turmoil or crisis. 

I don't expect that you will change your mind on the issue... I often find that people who never been touched personally in significant way don't really have a depth of understanding of what co-dependent relationship are like and how they actually can seduce people into what they believe is a stable relationship.  I even see individuals jump from relationship to relationship and keep on insisting that their is nothing wrong with their co-dependent or enabling nature is not the issue but the partner they choose... It was a Compatibility Issue!! and god forbid their own co-dependent or enabling behaviors was part of the problem.  Fact is... most people have a tendency to be drawn into these types of dynamics of co-dependency or enabling behaviors in our relationships regardless of our relationship structure.  Our lack of awareness to these tendencies will make is rip to be victims of them.. and I truly believe it is a road to victimhood.

Yes you are right that many D/s relationships have a co-dependency aspect to their relationship... this doesn't make it right in my view.  and though it might be managable.. I consider it a time bomb.  Maybe I am a bit of a coward.. but I don't like to play russian roulette.. and therefore.. my M/s dynamic is driven by interdependency and not co-dependency... the odds are in my favor for success and the downside is not nearly as bad either.  But it takes personal responsibility to live a inter-dependent relationship... and as amazing as it sounds.. my experience as shown me that people seem to avoid personal responsibility if at all possible.  In the past couple years at work, I have had somewhere in the number of 50 formal investigation of individuals that failed in their responsibilities and only about 5 came to the investigation and took full responsibility for their actions.  This not even including the multiude of informal investigations that I have done for failures of responsibility.  Time and again... I see a majority of people to minimize or discount their responsibilities.  In my work life and my personal reationships... I hold people accountable!  When I look at my own world... I hold myself responsible.. my world is of my making!  yeah.. some things may occur that I didn't decide upon... but it is my choice what I do from there.  So... if alandra and kyra come to me and say... I can't do X anymore....  It is my choice on how to deal with it... and I don't get any mileage in my world with... well you said that you would do X.  Things change... I control my world and controlling to me is rather simple... to quote William T Powers "controlling means producing repeatable consequences by variable actions"  In short... I get my needs (repeatable consequence) met by the choices I make (variable actions).  I am in control of myself... and I expect my girls to be in control of themselves as well.  But I have the authority in our relationship and as such... they must make choices to inform me of their needs to ensure of that there needs are met.. and when that is stopping.. they need to take different action to get the desired consequence (needs met).


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 8:40:18 PM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		Some interesting food for thought KnightsofMist.  Thank you for sharing this.
Has me thinking some even.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 10:43:14 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I've never understood the "I love you too much to hurt you" thing.  I see love as an opportunity to reveal a deeper intimacy and putting all sorts of things out there, and that includes, for some people, the infliction and acceptance of pain. 

If that is true for them.  But as you said, only some people. 

It's also difficult as a submissive masochist you may feel "right" when the dominant sadist is CHOOSING to inflict that sensation upon you.  Lots of subs have hang ups about being treated well or given what they want.

It's also difficult if you are a non masochist but you want to serve through pain and you are with a conflict sadist.  They don't even get the pleasure of knowing you're going into subspace or some happy endorphin high- it's pure pain, infiltered and unmixed. 

People eventually tend to find their own balance after a few years, this tends to be a novice issue thankfully.  But it can cause a lot of long tiresome nights wrestling with yourself.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 10:45:30 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		If you love me, you'll go have sex with that other woman...

If you love me, you'll convert to my religion...

If you love me, you'll have an abortion...

If you love me, you'll ...

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Barelily)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 10/31/2008 11:30:45 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		I don't find it a hideous action to be an outright outlet for a dominant's anxiety and anger (from a shitty day) when he blows.

To do so, to accept such terrorizing as a slave-like chore or necessity. No big deal.

If it relieves a pressure from his worried and fretting brow, so be it.

The appreciation (then or later) of the actions should be given as is necessary. 

Please thank you girl for her services well done.

But, if he is just an insecure, downtrodden, victim of his own stresses (since childhood) type of man then the reasoning for the outburst is surely because of that.  A man like that only wants to hurt himself but is too much of a coward and attacks someone who seems more vulnerable out of his own self-preservation mode. 

You have to find the fine line between 'being a martyr for a chump or letting a real man give you a thump'.

decisions, decisions.

_____________________________

It hurts.....that you call me a masochist


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 11/1/2008 7:23:47 AM   
WhiplashSmile2


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline 		I'm rethinking a few things regarding Codependancy now.  I can honestly see the point that KnightofMists made.  Ironic, this morning I had a bit of a small situation come up as the result of my failure to fully disclose something a couple of days ago.  Anyways, a misunderstanding started to result from it and the only way to nip it in the ass, was disclosure. 

At times, I know I can suck at transparency.  Many times I'll handle my own problems or issues as privately as I can.  My mess, my issue, my problems type of mentality.  That in itself should not be a big issue, right?  Amazing thing about keeping quiet about things, omission and such.  It can be misleading where your partner is prone to make a false assumption or take things the wrong way.  Ummmmmmm... 

Anyhoo, I ended up swallowing my pride a little bit ago and coming clean before the misunderstanding took hold.  Bad enough, it managed it left my girl wondering for a couple of days about something.  I'm not going into specific details.

It's still my mess, my problem, my issue, it's something I am working on and have been.   I found myself shallowing my pride some and spilling my guts.   It's actually kind of crazy how this could have snowballed out of control.

Again, I can totally suck at transparency when I'm trying to deal with my issues on my own.  I tend to be quiet and not go into details.  Mmmmmm...  thinking some here how this translates in my past relationships some.

Think I'm going to be a little more bold and force myself to do something a little more different.  What's the worse that can happen anyways? 

I know this is a bit off the topic.  However, I'm pretty certain that it has everything to do with communication skills.  Fun stuff like revealing the not so pretty things at times.  However this tends to place the responsibility for actions and reactions upon the right things.

So I guess, not only Responsibility in terms of personal responsibility, but responsiblity in letting it be known what the responsible (correct) reasons are behind our own actions are at times.  Wait, that's the same thing as personal responsibility and owning up to it.   Omissions can be the same as lies type of stuff.

My, my, my, my...  was not expecting this to be a sort of outcome from posting to the threads.  

Yes, it sort of deviates from the thread somewhat, but not really. :^)

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 11/1/2008 7:52:38 AM   
LydiaSciKitten


Posts: 43
Joined: 10/16/2008
From: Luxembourg, now in UK
Status: offline 		As far as responsibilities go in a D/s couple, I think that each individual is responsible for their own pleasure. The fact subs are serving their Dom for His or Her pleasure does not make them actually  responsible for it, if He or She can not be pleased unless S/He inflicts more pain that the submissive can handle, that is a problem S/He needs to resolve, and not the submissive's fault. This also applies the other way round, and leads back to the main thread. If a masochist can not be satisfied with the amount of pain inflicted or not inflicted upon him, he or she must resolve that issue with themselves. They will either find a balance, or leave the relationship and enter one that pleases them better. Trying to push a Dom to act more sadistically than what they feel comfortable with is wrong, because trying to make a Dom do anything is the first place goes completely against the whole concept of D/s anyway. The only thing one can do is, instead of ridiculous 'If you love me you will blah blah..', trying to have a conversation along the lines of 'I feel that I am not being fulfilled in the current state of our relationship. If you are holding back, or if you believe that you might hurt me more than it is wise, or if you are reluctant to hurt someone you care about, please do not think that way, as I know what I want and am taking responbibility for it.'. If that doesn't work, the relationship is in a very difficult situation, because inevitably, either the masochist will be left unfulfilled, or the Dom will feel they are forced to act against their gut feeling. Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to break an arrangement that WILL NOT WORK.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 11/1/2008 9:52:07 AM   
lilmissattitude


Posts: 36
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2
Sadistic Master/Dom Daddy... hooks up with Masochistic Subbie slave girl.   Then after 6 months or however long.  He's no longer into inflicting pain upon her.  Something which was part of the original relationship.   Because Masochistic Subbie slave girl really is into pain and being used.   Now, however the relationship faulters because Sadistic Master/Dom Daddy feel in LOVE for her and is in DADDY DOM only mode. 

One can get the sense of a sort of false advertising here.  Because HEY Where the Fuck did my Sadistic Daddy Go?  I want him back is what the Maso is saying to themselves.  So, really?   Let's talk about Manipulation here for a moment.   Who manipulated who here?  


Ahhh... so rather than be mature and say "hey, this isn't what I really signed up for, so maybe I need to walk away and find someone who will actually be able to meet my needs" you think the answer is to try and manipulate them into doing what you want?  Who is in control then?  


---okay...the post seemed to have been started after reading my post.  <looks to Whiplash> thank you ever so much.   http://www.collarchat.com/m_2241339/tm.htm  My Sir read the first part of your 4 + page thread and it helped Him to see what i was trying to say, perhaps because it didnt come from someone He felt He had disappointed, but someone who knew both sides of their own struggles and there are other ways to see what i was trying to say.

the words "if you love me...you would..." weren't used in my case.  there was open and honest dialogue, which it did take a lil while to draw out of Him as He couldn't put it into words either...but sometimes as a sub/slave/baby girl with a Sadistic /Daddy Dom it is difficult to get a point across when i was feeling frustrated, but still trying to remember my place.  it was something that HE, my Sir, asked me to research and see if there were others that dealt with this...feeling.  The Daddy Dom taking over and not being able to let the Sadistic side hurt me.  i actually have told Him "if you never hurt me again, i wouldn't leave or hold it against you.  i love you and want to please you, and if that means not enjoying this part of our relationship, then i will accept that."

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 11/1/2008 11:25:36 AM   
Barelily


Posts: 96
Joined: 10/8/2008
Status: offline
quote:

If you love me, you'll go have sex with that other woman...

If you love me, you'll convert to my religion...

If you love me, you'll have an abortion...

If you love me, you'll ...


Not quite sure why you responded to me with this but in reply..

Only if shes my type
Brain washing prohibited
I have the option to keep my legs closed, so thats not an issue
I'll have to wait and see what this one leads to

Disclaimer: This post is in response to a post made by LuckyAlbatross and is based on my opinion and experiences only.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 11/1/2008 12:24:07 PM   
BLGirl


Posts: 209
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		This whole thread makes me oh so glad that I have a really sadistic Daddy that loves me.

(in reply to Barelily)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: If you Love me, you will hurt me. - 11/1/2008 12:26:06 PM   
masterdstar


Posts: 160
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		“A cande is made to become entirely flame…”
RUMI

Since W/we live in a time and society that can only equivocate and everything is relative it is easy to forget, dismiss, there are things which are indeed black or white.

Love is love, anything less may be real concern or caring etc. but it is unconditional love or not.

I love you but only as I see fit, can’t include the love you need….sorry. So awfully vanilla.  All the equipment, all the lingo, all the “acts” mean little unless the mind and heart are of the same perspective.

To knowing claim to “love” one and not give them what they need (different from what they want) and refuse it, well then it is in the best interest of A/all to find one which can be loved at Your level equally. Ds is in fact about equality; Equal submission and equal Domination, all else is just more vanilla Ds, vanilla thinking.

Get over it..................get honest....................can't do it, fine...................but don't leave another in the lurch.

Shocking to hear Someone speak to lifes black and white instead of cyber 101 huh?

Enjoy your wonder-filled day

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)
Profile   Post #: 80
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