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RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/3/2008 10:04:01 PM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you Lady Pact. i have anxiety from time to time time but am not mentally incapable. im glad you appreciate that there is a difference now
Thank you
kevin

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/3/2008 10:16:06 PM   
lilmisssubmiss


Posts: 284
Joined: 9/29/2008
Status: offline 		I believe the saying " In order for anyone to help/love you, you have to be able to help/love yourself first" is just a fucking piece of bullshit.
Sometimes, someone helping and loving you is what puts you back on your feet and makes you able to love and help yourself. We  as humans are here for eachother to lean on eachother and give someone a shoulder when needed.
By helping someone with their battle with depression it can bring you closer....i don't know i know my severe depression wasn't taken away by myself, it was taken away by other people helping and loving me.
You shouldn't judge someone just because they are going through a rough time or battle a disease called depression....it shouldn't stop you from considering someone unless you alone are not comfortable enough or capable enough to help another human

Anyways using the words mental incapacity i thought you meant dumb....lol bad idea for word usage and could be taken offensivly seeing what the topic really is about.

< Message edited by lilmisssubmiss -- 11/3/2008 10:18:13 PM >

(in reply to Monkeyontuesday)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/3/2008 10:58:39 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I believe strongly that when taking on any sub/slave 100% healthy in all departments or less than 100% we should takre into account what our original goals and game plan was before meeting the person. We need to make suitable adjustments and try to work out if we will need to deviate from the originalk "Dream" and if such deviations are really important now and in the future. You need to be selfishly and brutally honest here and ask yourself if you will be happy or will resentment creap in later. (Please note that this probably not happen if the sub/slave has been in your collar for years and has suffered an onset of this dibilating mental problem. Different set of ideas then as you will already have an emotional bond and then the matter of honour and integrety will come into play too). Next, you need to take a good look at yourself and ask if you are equipped to handle and take responsibility for someone suffering this problem.  You as a Dominant owe all this to both yourself and to any potential sub/slave who is less than perfect. One silver lining appears though, I have found with the nany counselling clients and therapy patients I have dealt with, often their suffering or problem discloses other atributes which my have not come to the for. It becomes like compensating for the loss of something. We see this regularly with phystcally impared folk and I'm here to say that this happens with mental imparement too.. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to lilmisssubmiss)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/3/2008 11:39:08 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		PTSD is different than depression I believe, PTSD is post traumatic stress disorder, and it's usually caused by some huge trauma that you're affected by it long after the event, depression does not take a traumatic event to bring on, And is a brain chemical imbalance.

and I don't belive it's good practice to encourage people to lie about the condition they have, by saying to call it another name.

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

completely separate but sadly others do not discern the difference


Well, if you explain it and they don't listen tell 'em to piss off. I always like it when people ensure I know they're idiots, saves oodles of time.

You can do communicative things to lessen the impact, though. You can avoid using the word "suffer". Use "up" words, not "down" words. "I have depression". And you can guild the lily a little bit, say you have PTSD instead of depression, you wouldn't believe the number of acronymic synonyms. Jargon them to death


(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 12:25:09 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
Chrinic Depression and Stress as well as a myriad of other nasties are part and parcel of PTSD. Besides some limited medication (Anti stress medication create some psychoses which can be even more dangerous especially if the patient has access to weaponary), people understanding the issues and just encouraging the patient to talk as they feel up to it and teaching them (especially men) that it is ok to cry and release the misery. Most of the Vietnam vets I know have been through this to a point (Aye I did this too) of in the mor ning placine the barrel of a loaded gun in the mouth and at night repeating the came thing, each time asking if it was worth staying alive. Some of the blokes and again I was one, went ans still at times went through questioning why we are alive and so many good men died. The thought is in the mine that perhaps it would have been better to have been killed and perhaps it would be better for everyone to die now.. It takes a very patient and understanding partner or friends to help someone through this.. If the suffer is considering a collar, the prospective owner needs to be up to speed with PTSD treatment and the triggers which can bring about psychotic eppisodes, how to deal with it etc... being a fellow traveler on that path, I would have less issues with collaring someone suffering thn lets say sever physical disabilities (which has not stopped me for considfering people thus far). 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 1:27:07 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Some people are frightened by mental illness.  In the past, some have beee frightened by AIDS, and before that, cancer -- especially breast cancer.  Many people are now frightened by dementia.
 
Why do these illnesses, but not others, give rise to fears? 
 
I think it's.usually because they arouse some deep dread in the fearful that 'this could happen to me'.
 
Breast cancer once was treated mainly by amputation of the breast.  Many people had difficulty seeing such 'amputees' as 'still being a woman'.  The 'idea' of losing your gender due to amputation of your 'sexual organs' aroused deep fear and revulsion in many people. I personally know one woman with breast cancer during this time who was forced out of her job because her supervisor was so fearful of her lillness and treatment.  I *think* there are or were some laws passed to protect breast cancer patients from discrimination.
 
AIDS was first 'seen' by many people as a disease only a gay man could get.  Many people had a reaction of horror of not just dying, but dying of a 'gay disease'.  These anxieties were made worse by difficulty understanding the disease and how it was transmitted.  It's not unusual to this day to find  someone who still believes AIDS can be transmitted by saliva or sweat.  You might remember the incident involving the UM Ryan White, an AIDS patient who was forced to leave a public school by the fearful adults with UMs who attended school with him. 
 
Mental illness is probably always going to meet with revulsion by some people.  While some people say they 'don't believe in' imental illnesses because the diagnosis is not made by blood tests or x-rays, the dread is usually about 'becoming a raving lunatic', 'losing my mind', etc..
 
Every human's mental health fluctuates over time.  Everyone (who is concious anyway) has had a period in which they 'just didn't feel like themselves'.  Everyone has had a sleepless night.  Everyone has 'lost their temper', very often to the degree they have felt an impluse to commit homicide, if just for a moment. Addictive disorders are also pretty common. 
 
Mental fitness is dependent on a myriad of things, from developing skills to experiencing training in self-control, to optimal stress levels and ideal life circumstances.   It's hard for me to imagine there are people have who have optimal mental fitness at all times during their lives. 
 
Because of this, the dread is fueled by the belief that there *really is* some risk they might someday 'lose their mind', etc.
 
I think most people dread -- and deny, avoid or otherwise protect themselves from 'feelng' that dread -- one or another form of illness. This often has an unfortunte impact on those afflicted with the dread disease, but I don't necessarially fault them for the way they feel..  Delberate cruelty, however, is not excusable IMO.
candystripper 

(in reply to lobodomslavery)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 4:36:29 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Thank you Lady Pact. i have anxiety from time to time time but am not mentally incapable. im glad you appreciate that there is a difference now
Thank you
kevin


I agree.  There absolutely is a difference.  However, I never said that anxiety, depression, or other illness in the same category was the same as what I consider a mental incapacity.  Let Me use an example or two for what I do mean.

Just to illustrate, let's say we have a forum poster.  We'll call him submissive k.  For a period of time, submissive k spent quite a few of his free hours reading about circus monkeys.  The circus monkeys fascinate him to no end.  After a while, he decides to join a message board that is dedicated to the discussion of monkeys.  Once there, the other members of the message board try to convince submissive k that not all monkeys are circus monkeys.  Some of the live in the wild, some of them are in the zoo, and some people even have them in their homes.  No matter how many people tell submissive k that not all monkeys are circus monkeys, he doesn't seem to understand.  For some reason, he can't grasp the concept.

Now here's the question.  What would you think of submissive k's mental abilities?  Would you think this person, who can't be convinced of a simple thing that everyone else understands, to have the capacity to give informed consent as a bottom?  I'll ask that the above paragraph be read over, but make the following changes in the text.  Replace the word circus with the word professional and monkey with the word dominant.  That is the very same concept that people have tried to help you to understand over and over.

One more and then I'm through.  If person 'a' directs a question to person 'b' and person 'c' reads it and thinks it's directed at him, that's an innocent enough mistake.  Actually, with that "in reply to" feature they have here at CM, that's not too unusual.  However, if person 'a' tells person 'c' the comment wasn't directed at him, that should suffice.  If person 'c' can't be convinced by anyone that he wasn't intended in the conversation, and there seems to be no hope for him understanding this, how would you see that?  Just the fact that he can't understand that someone wasn't speaking to him directly?  Is that person competent?

I'm probably going to get banned for this, as some will see it as a direct attack.  It's not.  It is, however, a personal guideline for Myself and many others.  If a person does not have the ability to give informed consent due to limited mental capacity, they probably shouldn't be playing in this lifestyle.  At the very least, they won't be playing with Me.  I've said it many times on many other subjects.  Just because I'm kinky doesn't mean I don't have morals, standards, or ethics.   The decision not to play with those who can not understand simple concepts is one of those.

Before Eleven pulls My account, <waves> I'm going to say one last thing.  I learned something today.  Sure, it was something I already knew, but I'm going to point it out.  For a long time, I've called Myself an equal opportunity sadist.  I based it on the fact that play partners could be of any race, gender, or orientation.  Sounds good on paper, right?  Still, it's not the complete truth.  I will continue to discriminate on certain facts.  Age and mental ability to name just two.  I'm good with that.

My final remark......
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

When something is wrong, folks, speak.








_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to lobodomslavery)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 7:19:08 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Thank you Lady Pact. i have anxiety from time to time time but am not mentally incapable. im glad you appreciate that there is a difference now
Thank you
kevin


I agree.  There absolutely is a difference.  However, I never said that anxiety, depression, or other illness in the same category was the same as what I consider a mental incapacity. 


Interesting. What I see with the OP is an attempt at manipulation and misdirection.
He takes other peoples words and responds to things not written with a disingenuous facade complete with apology mixed with correction.

"i'm glad you appreciate the difference now" when LadyPact never once indicated there was any such difference.
He did the same with me, implying that I am prejudiced towards any one with depression when I said no such thing.


_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 9:16:30 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		Well with respect Lady Pact i m not mentally incapacitated, i can work with people and i can converse socially, but each to their own as we say in Dublin . i sincerely hope i come across more open minded people with a slice of compassion in my own area . thats all ill say. im not saying Your not compassionate Lady Pact, i just think your coming from a totally different perspective to me, and, maybe Your right, maybe im not on the same wave length as You yet, maybe i do need to mature, maybe i am naive. But maybe , just maybe that is not too surprising , after all you are ten years older and possibly have four times my experience in the lifestyle. For one You have dominated in real life, i have not subbed in real life to anyone
it just remains for me to thank You for Your contribution to this forum and No i would not seek for You to be banned , that would be totally against my beliefs. In fact it smacks of Nazism. Hitler did not like the opinions of the Jews so he just got shut of them. No every opinion is worthy of being expressed and No opinion should be vetoed. So no I wont seek to have You removed nor will i encumber anyone else with that responsibility. Like is say to do such things smacks of Fascism and i am not a Fascist. We live in a free society and people can make opinions as they wish regardless of what the other person's thinks. You are just exercising Your right to free speech. Thats ok. i may disagree with the content of what you said but as we say in Gaeilge sin sceal eile, thats another story. We have another saying in Gaelic and i will express it to you now Lady Pact
Go neiri an bothar Leat Lady Pact
Slan Sabhailte
kevin
translation
i hope you find future happiness, the very best of luck to you Lady Pact
Stay safe and never be afraid to express your opinion
kevin

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 9:19:00 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		im not being disingenuous Lady. im just trying to respond in the appropriate way, i ll admit i was a little improper in what i said to you. But its hard because this is the first time i have really engaged with people who have more experience than me in this lifestyle. i guess You could say im on a learning curve now
kevin

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 9:34:32 AM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		In reply to the original post:

If I refused to have a relationship with someone on the basis that they have some sort of mental 'defect' then I'd be a hypocrit... 'specially since I'm probably more messed up than most :)

I think denying people on the basis that they 'have problems' is a silly notion. Everyone has baggage, and yes... some of it is bad and heavy, while some is light. You should be more focused on how the person *deals* with the baggage, than on the fact that they have it.

(in reply to lobodomslavery)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 11:40:38 AM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Lady Pact
ive read this post about the monkey and the circus a number of times and on reflection  i think You are right. i really am not compatible with You and the very many Dommes on this site who are at the very least fairly sadistic and not just for obvious geographical reasons. im not compatible because i have nothing on my resume which convinces that i would for example have the pain tolerance required to serve You and others. im not compatible because im not even on the same wave length in terms of intelligence and finally culturally im not compatible. i come from a city where BDSM is in its infancy, where Dommes i ve talked to would not even imagine themselves physically challenging their slaves where the extent of their Dominance goes as far as the man buying drinks and treats for the Lady and no further.  Clearly in the United States and in the UK as well as much of Europe, Dommes are looking for much more. They are looking for real servitude and evidence that an applicant could cope with that on a daily basis. i dont have that evidence, i could not prove it at all , it would all be just chance. the likelihood is i would be damaged by a sadistic Domme if i got involved with one. the fact that i live so far away is fortunate but even were i on Your door step , i would not be a candidate for the simple reason that i am not on your wave length and will never likely to be. i hope however to be on the wave length of Dommes  in Dublin.  But from Your perspective even if we were very approximate it just would not work, i would be a lot of work and very tiring as You would pretty much have to start from scratch and below.  Dommes just dont have the time and energy to help me with my problems.  Dommes on this forum are not psychologists or Mother Teresa's , they do not, and rightly so, see their role as mollycoddling the sub/slave, they want a slave who can provide them service and take real punishment when he is asked to or if the Domme feels he deserves it or just on whim and in reality i just would not be able for that. the very fact that i said i would not be comfortable with being caned just exposes me as totally unsuitable and far from being unsympathetic, You, Lady Pact, are showing your compassion by refusing to even countenance having me as a sub/slave and strongly advising me even not to get involved with a Domme in Dublin , if she has sadistic inclinations as some im sure do, i cant say all Dommes in Dublin are Mother Teresas but most of them practice a softer Domination than what is the case in the US and Britain. im sure it is however only a matter of time before Dommes in Ireland become sadistic at least in some proportion anyway, it is my hope that i get one who can understand me with kindness before that happens. i hope your prediction that i will be relegated by the Dommes in Dublin as soon as they become aware of the problems i have and my problems with understanding this lifestyle and how serious it is for many Women, and the seriousness of deciding to become a slave to someone, which clearly You Lady Pact take very seriously, i hope that does not come true, i hope as my mum says there is a corner for everyone in the world
with apologies, it was good to know that i was getting in too deep before it was too late and that i need to back off and submit to someone less sadistic, if i can call you that , respecfully, Lady Pact
thank you
kevin


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 12:06:43 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Since when is depression "mental incapacity"?

I would not take a slave who had, say, Down's syndrome, or was otherwise mentally challenged--that strikes me as a scenario rife with pitfalls and places for the dynamic to become abusive. However, clinical depression is a treatable condition, not an incapacity, and is a condition that is generally alleviated by being within healthy, nurturing relationships--including those with a power exchange dynamic.

_____________________________



(in reply to lobodomslavery)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 12:28:38 PM   
lobodomslavery


Posts: 2477
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you Sir. i am neither mad nor dangerous. i dont feel suicidal. i dont harm others and i am not violent. but unfortunately i am incompatible with at least some of the Dommes on this site, for the reasons they lay out, my alleged mental incapacity and possibly the wide cultural difference between american and irish society which seems to be a little more extreme in Uncle Sam's backyard, an affable reference to theUnited States , if you will with regard to some personnel in the BDSM world
kevin

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/4/2008 8:24:02 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I'm not frightend of it, I'm just not interested in dealing with the shit that comes with it any more, after having 2 partners who were diagnosed  mentally ill, One of the two who frequently had melt downs couldn't afford medication and sometimes used his illnesses against me to manipulate me when we fought. Who also told me if I ever left him he'd kill himself cause life wasn't worth living and who at one time threatend to kill both of us and my dog by running us all off the road and making us crash.

and one, who was screwed up in the head, but wasn't diagnosed by a doctor..

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Some people are frightened by mental illness.   
 
candystripper 

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/5/2008 6:04:35 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I disagree that a healthy nurturing relationship is enough to cure mental illnesses, such as chronic depression.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Since when is depression "mental incapacity"?

However, clinical depression is a treatable condition, not an incapacity, and is a condition that is generally alleviated by being within healthy, nurturing relationships--including those with a power exchange dynamic.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/5/2008 6:22:14 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		To alleviate, means to lessen or make tolerable.  I don't think CL was saying that a loving relationship would cure chronic depression, but merely stating that a nurturing relationship can help make living with chronic depression more tolerable or help lessen it.  A supportive environment certainly could be beneficial in aiding someone with chronic depression. 

Chronic depression, can be incapacitating.  It doesn't have to be, but it can.  When your perception of the world around you is darkened so drearily that you feel as if you are fumbling around in the dark, and you body hurts as badly as your psyche, and you have hurt those around you, without ever having wanted to, to the point you withdraw from the world to protect those you love from your own illness:  you are incapacitated.  I say this, because sometimes people rush too quickly to the defense of an illness to pretty it up, that it becomes a form of enabling the person with such an illness; or even giving the impression that the illness is insignificant and leaving the person feeling as if they are even more alone.

WinD



(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/5/2008 6:25:04 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		The only mental condition of this nature that I have had any personal exposure to is bipolar disorder. I have only known a few people with this and each of them managed it poorly and suffered for it, as did the people around them. I am sure there are people who manage it effectively but yeah... it would pretty much be a deal breaker for me.

(in reply to lobodomslavery)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/5/2008 6:35:50 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		I've lived in a household that orbited around the alpha slaves bipolar illness.  She was one of the most brilliant women I've ever known, and I love her dearly, but she is one manipulative and evil bitch who was brilliant enough to use her illness to rule her world.  But, she was also so beautiful and vulnerable and fragile too, and no matter how evil you knew her to be, and no matter how aware you were to her machinations, you still were drawn to help her, save her, love her. 

Bipolar MIGHT be a deal breaker for me.  I hate to state any absolutes, but I don't see myself ever looking at a potential relationship with someone who is bipolar and thinking - yeah baby, I'm diving in 'cause that water is fine....

(in reply to Evility)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Is mental incapacity in a person a deal breaker for... - 11/6/2008 6:55:02 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I disagree that a healthy nurturing relationship is enough to cure mental illnesses, such as chronic depression.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Since when is depression "mental incapacity"?

However, clinical depression is a treatable condition, not an incapacity, and is a condition that is generally alleviated by being within healthy, nurturing relationships--including those with a power exchange dynamic.


Did not say it was "enough".  If you think healthy relationships do not help--and help a great deal--however, you are greatly mistaken.


_____________________________



(in reply to YourhandMyAss)
Profile   Post #: 80
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