RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me

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servantheart -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 3:28:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Did the government take them away or are the American people surrendering them (almost) willingly? I agree with this. To this day, I'm befuddled why Americans didn't go ballistic over the "Patriot" Act. Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 3:32:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantheart quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Did the government take them away or are the American people surrendering them (almost) willingly? I agree with this. To this day, I'm befuddled why Americans didn't go ballistic over the "Patriot" Act. Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism. Very likely. Bringing us back yet again to Ben Franklin's incisive statement about the wisdom of sacrificing liberty for security. As Americans, we by definition have the government we deserve--if we elect the vile and the least among us, we should not be surprised by the results.

servantheart -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 3:35:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: servantheart quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Did the government take them away or are the American people surrendering them (almost) willingly? I agree with this. To this day, I'm befuddled why Americans didn't go ballistic over the "Patriot" Act. Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism. Very likely. Bringing us back yet again to Ben Franklin's incisive statement about the wisdom of sacrificing liberty for security. As Americans, we by definition have the government we deserve--if we elect the vile and the least among us, we should not be surprised by the results. So true

Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:00:29 PM)
quote: Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism. That was seven years ago. What's the problem now?

amelliagrace -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:13:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism. That was seven years ago. What's the problem now? I considered it an atrocity and an outrage then, and still do. I'm continually perplexed at how few share my viewpoint. Even more frightening are those who thought it was awful with Bush in the oval office, and a Republican majority in congress, but aren't too concerned about Obama in that regard...or the guy after him...or the guy after him. It is one thing to hand a loaded gun (or suitcase nuke) to someone you trust (OK, so Bush and trust don't belong in the same sentence, I trust you all get the general idea). Foolish, perhaps, but perhaps not necessarily a total break with all synaptic activity. To entrust it to a string of individuals that you know nothing about, in circumstances you can not predict, administration after administration, congress after congress..... *...is just plain nuckin' futs.* *Grace*

MissIsis -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:14:08 PM)
I could have this all wrong, but I will try to give it a go. We are a republic, which if I understand it correctly means that we elect the people we want to be our leaders. These leaders will then make laws, pass bills, ect, as our representatives. In our elections, the beliefs of these candidates, & their opinions matter. We vote for them based on that criteria. In a true democracy, it shouldn't matter what our leaders believe, or what their opinions are. These things would take a back seat to what the people that elected them want. I really haven't been able to stomach Bush. I didn't vote for him, nor do I claim any responsibility for his position in our White House. That doesn't mean I don't love my country or feel any sense of patriotism. Quite the contrary. As a citizen of the United States, I also knew his time in there was numbered, and that he had at best, 8 years to stay in that position. And when the time came this past month, I exercised my privilege to vote, as did the many others who had, had enough of Bush & his tactics. It may sound crazy, but in the United States of America, we can be patriotic and also disagree with our leaders, as long as doing so, does not cause harm to another.

rulemylife -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:14:47 PM)
edited because it was already asked

servantheart -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:23:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism. That was seven years ago. What's the problem now? Yes it was and I was responding to Your past tense question.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:28:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Shock over 9/11 and fear of appearing "unpatriotic"/unsupportive of efforts to combat terrorism. That was seven years ago. What's the problem now? The problem now (and always) is the inertia that is the Achilles' Heel of any democratic society. People are too consumed by what is happening RIGHT NOW to address the unwinding of past ills. There is no movement in Washington to undo the Patriot Act, nor is there likely to be one in the next four years. People will not petition nor protest for that vile piece of government overreaching to be shredded, because they have "more important" concerns.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 4:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni I am disappointed for sure, but anger is meaningless without something for me to vent it at. And for me that means a living person or a kitten or something. If anything though I am more angry at the populace for this colossal clusterfuck of a country we live in. We can not agree on anything, we have zero sense of a common purpose. Personally I'd like a government that works alot quicker than what we have now. So call me a fascist. and how can we hold the government to high standards when the ones we have for our fellows have fallen so low. But whatever, you have your opinion. You now there are plenty of dictatorships and fascist governments out there. Why not move to one if you think they are a good idea? And what would be your grand idea to fix things? A dictator was originally a title in Rome for someone given power by the senate in emergencies. When it was over, then the dictator stepped down. Maybe we need a dictatorship while we rewrite the constitution and overhaul and stream line the government. Seems that people who don't like disagreement are thought fascists, trying to drown out dissent. So keep trying to grind out dissent and I'll keep laughing as your thought fascism grows.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 5:26:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Did the government take them away or are the American people surrendering them (almost) willingly? I agree with this. To this day, I'm befuddled why Americans didn't go ballistic over the "Patriot" Act. Some of us DID go ballistic over it, MM, for all the good it did us. I lost count of the number of letters I wrote to my senators and representatives over it. I made phone calls - ANGRY ones - to their various offices. I voted against those who were in office when they came up for reelection, regardless of party affiliation. I stringently urged those whom I knew to do the same. Unfortunately, there are far to many sheeple around these days, and they were far to busy bleeting about how I was being "unpatriotic" and "unsupportive of the president" and "sympathizing with terrorists" for it to do a damn bit of good.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 8:16:33 PM)
The system they left had nothing within it to allow the chance to change it, now did it? If he really wanted to follow tradition he would leave, find an indigenious native to steal their land and slaughter. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf An American ideal is to fight for change within the democratic republic that we have. That's quite an interesting point, Orion, considering the United States was founded by people who chose to leave their homes in order to gain political representation, rather than stay and fight for change. It occurs to me that in this sense at least, the other lad is following a US ideal of sorts.

NorthernGent -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 4:04:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked, contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything---you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him. I think this is quite interesting. I agree with the emboldened part; yet the idea of a free mind is so abstract that it's a matter of opinion and not even remotely near a probable truth. I'd suggest this boils down to your view on the core of a human being, but are we in the realms of what we see or what we'd like to see? Regardless, the idea of freedom makes for an interesting thread, so I'd be interested to hear what exactly makes you or anyone else a free man. What does a free man do differently? quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 In all cases, however, a man only stops being "free" when he at last believes he has no choice, A man always has a choice, even when a gun is held to his head - grab the gun or try and talk him 'round. What matters is informed choice; yet, how do we decide whose choices are informed? quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Where Franklin and Heinlein converge is on the principle that freedom is an active choice, not a passive one. If we do not defend our liberties, if we are not prepared to die in that defense, we will in time surrender those liberties. This sounds amazingly similar logic to left-wing revolutions, i.e. advocating rebellion as a means of achieving freedom. That is the crux of it. The problem here is that the notion of freedom is an abstract idea masquerading as an absolute truth. quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 "All that is needed for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Ah yes, the advocate of the status quo. Rank and privilege at the expense of democracy eh.....whether he ws a good man or not is open to debate, but he certainly did nothing to improve the political system in this country.

Satyr6406 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 4:34:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery After all, it's damn confusing. I hear people claiming Washington should listen to the people. So we have this election, and the people--as well as the Electoral College numbers--clearly elect Barack Obama. Not an unknown (this has been going on forever), and not easily (he first had to win over his own party in the primaries, which he did). Several experienced people endorsed him, from both major parties. He ran a disciplined, organized, focused, well-resourced campaign. And after becoming President-Elect, he's clearly surrounded himself for quite some time with damn impressive advisors (just check out his economic advisory board). And certainly patriotic Americans, after duly electing the choice of the people, would follow their President, at least for his term, yes? Apparently not. Many people have said, "OK, I didn't vote for him, but he's the President"--including John McCain. Many others here persist in language more appropriate for before the election. So just what makes those folks experts? Why is America great except when it disagrees with an individual's vote? And why aren't these unusually wise people Presidential advisors or candidates themselves? And if they don't like American democracy, what exactly do they propose? Because it sounds to me like they'd like a dictatorship, just that they can't agree on the dictator. But then, I'm confused, so hopefully the smart people will explain it to me. Thank you for doing so! You seem to be negating the fact that one of the things that's great about OUR particular democratic REPUBLIC (We're not a true democracy or we wouldn't have things such as an electoral college) is that our constitution allows the right of free speech. Just because a majority of my bretherin didn't agree with me and elected President-elect Obama doesn't mean I have to like or shut up about it. I do support the office to which he has been elected. The man, however, scares me. Just because I refuse to fall into lock-step doesn't mean I am anti-American and, quite frankly, I'm a little bit offended at the suggestion. I am not likely to convert to agree to his political leaning. Some would say that it is our DUTY, as patriots to also point out when our government and our individual representatives are WRONG. If this last statement weren't true, we wouldn't have any "reporters" (Or "talking heads shows" on Sunday mornings).

tsatske -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 4:47:24 AM)
quote: You seem to be negating the fact that one of the things that's great about OUR particular democratic REPUBLIC (We're not a true democracy or we wouldn't have things such as an electoral college) is that our constitution allows the right of free speech. Exactly, Satyr. I am a HUGE Obama fan. I think - and say often and repeatedly - He is my generations JFK. I love him, I love that he was elected. However - when you (the OP) are asking for an explanation of why people would DARE voice a desenting opinion - I have to ask, did you feel this way when people (me) went around with bumper stickers that said things like 'He's not MY president' - '01.20.09' - or 'they call him 'w' so he can spell it' and 'somewhere in Texas a village is missing their idoit'? Why would I think I had the right to the freedom of speach to express my loud disenting opinion when I don't like the president - but when I do like him, all you desenters should stfu already? In this country we let our officials no what we don't like. A few (very few) take it to far - efergies, for instance - but that is not new, and has always been the case. They just make themselves look bad. But expressing a dissenting opinion does not make you look bad, it makes you look like you don't agree with me.

Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 7:02:16 AM)
Ah, but now both of you are reading into the post what isn't there, while ignoring much of what IS there. Consider, for example, blanket statements like "He's not qualified to be President." First, what gives the speaker magical insight into presidential qualifications over all other voters? Before the election, fair enough, but after the election, what is the point of such statements? He's the president-elect, soon to be the president. You can be joyous, you can be worried/scared (and note generally for missing or unspecific reasons), doesn't matter. There it is. Sure, you have free speech, but such speech is no more than grumbling and bitching, not true speech. And no, no one's asking anyone to walk in lockstep. I AM saying that this is how things work. And I AM suggesting that one you can't do a damn thing about it anyway, you may as well wait and see how the new president goes. I did for Bush--most presidents have governed to the center of where they campaigned, after all. Unfortunately, Bush didn't, and step by step built his unpopularity. But Bush is an ideologue, while Obama is a disciplined, pragmatic leader who just bested both the Democratic establishment (who supported Sen. Clinton) and the Republican establishment. Certainly the man has talent and has demonstrated he can get things done. And he's doing so now, even before he takes office, especially on the economy, meeting with that impressive collection of economic advisors, calling for a quick stimulus in the lame duck session and low/middle class tax cuts in January. Additionally, I'm hearing calls for investing in infrastructure--about damn time, and a great way to create jobs and put money into the economy. We've had a some great presidents. We've had some terrible presidents. We've had brilliant presidents. We've had idiotic presidents. We've had productive presidents. We've had presidents who did nothing. Another day comes, with another election. If there's a better system than this, what is it? But I don't see the point of endless bitching before the president-elect is even in office. After Jan. 20, if you'd like to start criticizing whatever he does, fair enough. Go for it. Please also explain why, not just take the swipe. Hope that helps clarify a bit.

Satyr6406 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 7:13:33 AM)
So, what you're saying is I should shut up until a date that you determine to be appropriate? Look, I have been MORE than fair with President-elect Obama. I didn't just make a snap decision about him and up until early October, I was fairly certain that he would be getting my vote. I hate to bring up the past but, did people wait until 21 JAN 01 before they started whining and moaning about how President Bush STOLE that election? I would argue that an accusation like that is much more detrimental to a man's ability to govern than most of the rhetoric I have heard about President-elect Obama. I will continue to add my voice to the fray whenever ANY public figure does something that I think isn't right (Just in case I am the only person who has noticed it) I would add one more thing as an example (and it's even a better one because it's a better example of a TRUE democratic process) ... Using your original post as a "reference point" and understanding this latest post: are the people in California who are protesting the passing of Referendum 8 (banning same-sex marriage), Un-American? Should they "Shut up"? After all, the people in California, apparently, have spoken. I would REALLY LOVE to hear your answer on this vis-a-vis your stance on people speaking out against President-elect Obama.

Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 7:18:19 AM)
Actually, this is an excellent example. These people have something to speak about---an issue, a cause, a purpose. They're married and not they're not. WTF? Nor did I suggest you just "shut up" until a specified time. What I'm hearing from people, though, is not problems with anything in particular, just bitching about losing an election. Not the same thing. If you are worried that by Obama's suggesting a stimulus package or cutting middle class taxes in Jan is a bad idea, for example, speak up---and explain why it's a bad idea.

Satyr6406 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 7:26:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Actually, this is an excellent example. These people have something to speak about---an issue, a cause, a purpose. They're married and not they're not. WTF? Nor did I suggest you just "shut up" until a specified time. What I'm hearing from people, though, is not problems with anything in particular, just bitching about losing an election. Not the same thing. If you are worried that by Obama's suggesting a stimulus package or cutting middle class taxes in Jan is a bad idea, for example, speak up---and explain why it's a bad idea. There are several reasons why I didn't vote for President-elect Obama and they are my own but, I will give you two of them: His politics are VERY far left (socially, I have no problem with this. Fiscally: BIG FREAKIN' PROBLEM) in my mind to the point of socialism and I don't wish to live in a socialist state. Second. For all the denials and diatribe. I was watching the Stephanopolous show when (then) Sen. Barrack Obama commended Senator McCain for NOT ridiculing his Islamic faith. Stephanopolous quickly corrected him and all was "right with the world, again". Now, before the moans and wails start. I don't care what faith he espouses. I care that he seems (to me) to be HIDING his faith. We only hide what we're ashamed of. So, what is President-elect Obama ashamed of?

MadAxeman -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/9/2008 7:42:25 AM)
Two glaring errors. Not far left by any international definition. He isn't Muslim. Nice to see a bit of commited sneering. Enjoy the next four years. They will probably produce an ulcer.

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