RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM!

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:14:23 AM)
I have never been a fan of bailouts. At best, they are putting a band aid on a hemorrhage. Who will REALLY suffer if nothing is done? A whole lot of hardworking people and retirees, that's who. We talk about "Corporations" and bad management, but the real workers are the ones who are wondering if they will be in the street. I have never been worried about the future before, but I am now. My parents are auto company retirees who gave their LIVES to the companies. Mom just lost her healthcare benefits. Dad was hourly, he should hang on for another year. Pensions were frozen years ago, but who knows how long that will last? Me? I'm a middle aged lady who pays for her own health care, and has to find a new job that pays a lot better. Sure. Plenty of THOSE in metro Detroit. Those of you who are not living in the heart of the disaster should take a closer look at the real fallout from this mess. The men who enacted the Enron fraud are living well---those who lost because of their evil are suffering. The top dogs at the auto companies will go sailing away with their golden parachutes.

meatcleaver -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:17:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u According to Ret. US Army general Wesley Clark ,writing in today's NY Times,this is a matter of National Security as well as an economic one.The need for a domestic auto industry would seem to be very important to equipping our armed services. This is just a protectionist strategy and completely transparent. The US uses it for the airline industry too yet the US has 30,000 planes of various sorts in mothballs in the Nevada desert. The idea that something has to be American owned for the government to conscript something for use in emergency is nonsense. How many vehiccles are there in the US? It fools no one and its an excuse other countries will use against the US in turn. Its a stupid excuse. Sorry Meat,but you have zero credibility concerning issues of this sort.Your opinions on whether or not American taxpayers should bail out an American auto industry,given your previous post's exhibiting a hate of all things American,are nothing less than humorous. Don't worry Smike, you just just don't like looking in the mirror, that's all. However, any bailout of GM would have international reprecussions because other countries would protect themselves from subsidized American goods in the same way America would if the situation was the other way round.

slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:17:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth *~ FAST REPLY ~* It is so great to see the concern for Corporations. Pity the same concern doesn't exist when corporations are succeeding and not in need of a hand out. quote: In that case, don't bail out ANYONE including WallStreet. Now that's something I agree with and would seem consistent with LaTigresse's position. Good to see more of us in agreement on the curtailment of ANY welfare, in ANY form to ANY individual or corporation. There's a good reason they fail - they've earned it. Let's see some consistency in philosophy for a change. Not agenda based agreement, but pragmatic and principled agreement that rewarding failure only generates MORE failure while taking away the incentive to succeed. Unfortunately Merc your point of view fails to recognise the innocent victims in all this.The suppliers and workers of same who would instantly be without customers to sell their product to.Yours is a harsh Darwinian model that would leave many out in the cold so to speak.Irregardless of complicity in the very failure you beleive they should bear the burden of.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:22:14 AM)
quote: While I would certainly agree with you that the current implementation of Wall Street bailouts is a mess,not sure the idea was in and of itself a mistake. Ok, so if the first bailout is a fuckup in execution even if not principle, how will the second bailout be any less of a fuckup? What is the lesson learned from the first? Has any lesson been learned (yet) from the first? quote: In this case extortion would not be the word I would choose...cost of doing business,combined with insisting on much more stringent emissions goals anyway the lawsuits would be moot. Don Corleone would call it "an offer he can't refuse." Extortion by any other name is still extortion. Further, you have not established that the lawsuits themselves are inherently "unreasonable" and would not be pursued by "reasonable management." quote: The Pension burdens relieved of the health care obligations would not be so odious to the industry. You add to the tax burden (either directly or indirectly by inflating the cost of labor still further), and any part of the health care obligations not covered under your NannyCare plan would still be the legal obligation of the industry--unless you unilaterally end the entire obligation of the industry to the pensioners. All you're doing is moving the dollars around, not achieving any meaningful cost reduction. quote: Done right(which is of course a hell of a leap of faith)it would not lead to chaos,as much as add stability to the economy...one number I have read is that 1 out of 10 jobs in this country would be adversely affected by Detroit's collapse. Which brings us back to the beginning of this rebuttal: on what basis do we have any confidence that any such bailout would be "done right"--especially when we have nary a clue what a bailout "done right" would even look like? Since when is government deserving of that much faith in anything?

LaTigresse -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:24:44 AM)
So, the solution to the problem is to perpetuate the problem? Rather than create a new basket for the eggs, you would keep mending the rotting old basket? I believe in letting the old basket rot and toss it, rather than waste time and energy to try and save something that the innate integrity has been lost. Move the eggs to a new basket or multiple baskets. Perhaps it won't be anything like the pretty rotting one, but maybe, just maybe it will be a much better one. Maybe even not a basket, but something that won't rot at all.

winterlight -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:46:17 AM)
I had a Chevy Nova one time. I really loved that car. It was part Toyota/Chevy. Yes, you could see the word Toyota on some areas of my car. It was built here in America. Wish they had made more cars like that. It was the same car as a Toyota (forgot the name) the only difference was the radio was in a different spot. I hated to lose that car but i had trouble finding parts for it at the different car wreck places. It was still running good except for noise under the hood. It was over ten years old when i got rid of it. My next car was a Honda Civic. It was what i could afford. It is now 5 years old and still running well. My favorite American car? It was a (Lee Iacocca) Valiant. God, I loved that car. Wish they still made it. It was the best car ever made in my opinion. I had owned a Chevy Chevette which later was known as one of the worse cars ever made and i can say that IS exactly TRUE. They have to come with some way to get the buying public away from the foreign cars and into American cars. How they will do it i do not know. Should we bail them out? I don't know the economic implications if we do. They have to come up with greener cars thats for sure. I have to wonder if our American car companies fail how much the CEO's are gonna get like the others before them. That is just totally screwed up in my own humble opinion. I feel bad for the people that lose their jobs, have families to feed, mortgages etc. These turkeys live a lavish lifestyle and due to bad decisions get MILLIONS of dollars as a goodbye present. Something is definitely wrong with the system.

Lorr47 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:46:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Let's not bail out GM, instead let it sink in it's own bloated carcass. They did it to themselves. In my opinion, good riddance to bad rubbish. Instead, put the money into new industry to employ those people. Something tht makes sense for a new, greener world. Something that does not depend on oil. Something that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels. Something they know they can count on to remain solvent in years to come. I could see the worth of both sides on whether to bail out GM until about noon.. First, George Will took the position that in no way should the Congress bail out GM for all the reasons and more that have been stated here. Will promptly was slapped down by the recent winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics. First, to go into Chapter 11 requires there be lenders who will lend so GM can reorganize. There are no lenders; the lenders are using bailout money to pay wages, dividends and buy other companies. In any case, there will not be any money to get through Chapter 11. The lack of loans means that the Chapter 11 filing is a Chapter 7-a straight bankruptcy. Secondly, the normal climate under which a company goes into bankruptcy is not present nor is GM a normal company. GM going bankrupt may destroy the country at this time. GM going under could cost $200,000,000,000.00 to $300,000,000,000.00 just in lost tax revenue. Then, $200,000,000,000.00 in retirement benefits will be foisted on the federal government. Then, consider a fairly conservative estimate of 100,000 to 300,000 workers out of work. And, these workers are not just in Michigan and then consider the ripple effect. The economist didn't think the fragile economy could withstand it. Of all people Sam Donaldson made the compromise proposal that for the short term the government has to bail GM out but in the longer term GM belongs to Will and his market forces. I admire Will a lot but he had been so blasted by the Nobel Laurerate I do not think he said another word. The Nobel Laureate convinced me. We should bail out GM short term but with draconian conditions including sacking the top management. If we do not, can you spell DEPRESSION? What really impressed me was that Arnold Scarzenneger (sic) was fully aware of this and on Meet the Press said that if the government got concessions there was no choice but to bailout GM for the short term. What I am sensing is that there are other forcess trying to bushwhack Obama so badly that they do not care what happens to the economy and the workers. But, they sure want to allow companies like American Express to change their corporate structures in 30 days so they can belly up to the bar and get the billions.

slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:47:34 AM)
Oversight CL plain and simple.Remove Paulson and his crony's from administrating said bailouts.Transparency is the cure all ,the idea that Government can not administer anything wisely and well is of course a Republican canard....which they go way out of their way to prove when given the opportunity.

slvemike4u -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:49:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u According to Ret. US Army general Wesley Clark ,writing in today's NY Times,this is a matter of National Security as well as an economic one.The need for a domestic auto industry would seem to be very important to equipping our armed services. This is just a protectionist strategy and completely transparent. The US uses it for the airline industry too yet the US has 30,000 planes of various sorts in mothballs in the Nevada desert. The idea that something has to be American owned for the government to conscript something for use in emergency is nonsense. How many vehiccles are there in the US? It fools no one and its an excuse other countries will use against the US in turn. Its a stupid excuse. Sorry Meat,but you have zero credibility concerning issues of this sort.Your opinions on whether or not American taxpayers should bail out an American auto industry,given your previous post's exhibiting a hate of all things American,are nothing less than humorous. Don't worry Smike, you just just don't like looking in the mirror, that's all. However, any bailout of GM would have international reprecussions because other countries would protect themselves from subsidized American goods in the same way America would if the situation was the other way round. Meat,you worry about your mirror,I will worry about mine...

celticlord2112 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 10:50:49 AM)
quote: Oversight CL plain and simple.Remove Paulson and his crony's from administrating said bailouts. Oversight is neither plain nor simple. Congress has had "oversight" of the mortgage industry--and plenty of time with both parties in control to remedy some fairly glaring problems of a regulatory nature. Their success in "oversight" is splashed all over the financial news. From whence cometh this superlative "oversight"?

Lorr47 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 11:20:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Oversight CL plain and simple.Remove Paulson and his crony's from administrating said bailouts. Oversight is neither plain nor simple. Congress has had "oversight" of the mortgage industry--and plenty of time with both parties in control to remedy some fairly glaring problems of a regulatory nature. Their success in "oversight" is splashed all over the financial news. From whence cometh this superlative "oversight"? They had a bunch of economists on the Lehrer News Hour. The younger talking heads spouted the usual line and the conversation was heading for the usual inanity that is popular of late. Then they got to this guy who looked like Elmer Fudd and whose eyes went opposite directions. They asked him how he viewed Paulson's progress. Elmer responded "you have to have a plan to make progress. Paulson has no plan but to throw money in every direction on Wall Street. Paulson will go through $700 billion and achieve nothing because he has no plan except to give money away to Wall Street.." Then Elmer went further and proved his point and that Paulson is like having Ally Baba throwing money to the 40 thieves. The only final result will be that the money will be gone. Whether anything is accomplished is problematical. Elmer went further and outlined a plan that was akin to what McCain was speaking about in re mortgages. Lehrer listened intently and the next day Paulson appeared and was unceremoniously destroyed. The favorite question was "But, Mr. Paulson why and how would that do any good? Paulson has no idea what he is doing except he is giving money to his friends; and as an x officer at Goldman Sachs he has a few of them. Since Paulson was an officer at Goldman Sachs we may have the answer as to why Lehman was allowed to go under; Lehman was the competition of Goldman Sachs and the only company allowed to go under. Now, every economist I have heard says that was the first major mistake of this whole mess. As each problem arises the solution seems to be give the money to Main Street and the taxpayers, directly or indirectly. True we theoretically need the money in the lending area, but it is not getting there between congress and Wall Street.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 11:32:28 AM)
quote: True we theoretically need the money in the lending area, but it is not getting there between congress and Wall Street. Which reiterates my question: where is the oversight? Where will be the oversight? Why should we trust the overseers? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ("Who watches the watchmen?") -- Juvenal.

Lorr47 -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 12:01:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: True we theoretically need the money in the lending area, but it is not getting there between congress and Wall Street. Which reiterates my question: where is the oversight? Where will be the oversight? Why should we trust the overseers? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ("Who watches the watchmen?") -- Juvenal. Oh, I really hate to say this: put John McCain in charge of the money.

Crush -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 2:39:12 PM)
I want my bailout....I'll do a lot for the economy

thornhappy -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 3:31:22 PM)
The ripple effect's hitting up in NW Ohio already. My cuz works at Cooper Tire, and is being "almost laid off" for the whole month of December. Cooper's going to work him 2 hours a day, so he won't be eligible for unemployment benefits. The only good thing is that he's got a lot of savings. thornhappy

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 3:40:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia I have really mixed feelings on bailing out General Motors. At this point, I feel the government SHOULD bail out GM. Newsvine - Meltdown 101: Why automakers might get bailed out The loss of 2.5 MILLION jobs, in this economy does not make sense to me. I think that the American auto industry needs to start making very fuel efficient and inexpensive cars. I also feel if WE bail out GM, WE should have some "say" in how they operate, the cars they roll out, and how they "spend" the bailout money. We are closer to a Depression than many of us realize. Everybody is getting "bailed out" EXCEPT the American workers! Bank bailouts, insurance bail outs, housing bail out, Wall street bail outs, now Car bailouts? The states need bailouts, everyone needs to be bailed out! How many of us really need fancy cars, with a million features that cost $40,000, IN THIS ECONOMY? Why not try to produce {gasp} affordable and reliable AMERICAN made cars with a good warranty? Maybe this is a chance for CHANGE in how American cars are made? Maybe we can/could actually start to compete a bit more? I would like to see the Auto Industries "bailed out" with stipulations that they make fuel efficient, RELIABLE, well engineered, inexpensive/affordable cars! Tell me am I dreaming here? I want to Appointed to a position by President elect Obama, as "Secretary of Creative and Free Thinking Alternatives". [;)] Okay, I am looking for thoughts and IDEAS on the bailouts. Especially GM, since they need the money soon.[8\|] First of all, let's get the economics straight; Shutting down GM (or FORD, or Chrysler) will NOT cause 2.5 million jobs to be lost....it will however cause chaos in the economic and unemployment markets for a time...but it will NOT erase jobs. Whether the demand is for 16 million cars and trucks annually (prior to August 2008) or the current (extrapolated) 9.2 million cars....there is a need in the U.S. for a certain amount of cars and trucks. Gotta have 'em. This then requires a certain number of car stereos, dashboards, brake pedals, gallons of car paint, door lock sets, electric window mechanisms, and of course, the now ubiquitous GPS systems. Gotta have 'em. Whether we go 1 year or 5 years on used rigs (which of course would increase the need for both mechanics and spare parts), or start buying new (which naturally would require all number of new support parts)...it's really immaterial....the cars must be produced. And they will be....and if Detroit goes bankrupt...which it may very well do (but unlikely with this Congress), the folks that make cars will move enmasse to places wherein which they make the new cars...which you'll buy, both because they're better....and because they're cheaper....and the factories that currently produce cars....those will be purchased (with local "improvement bonds" to get the local economy moving again) by very smart people who will do everything they can to get a piece of the 9.2 million cars that are now...economically...being demanded by the market. (Instead of the 16 million that are being demanded by the unions....which aren't of course, selling). The market will decide...whether we fund the excesses of the past....or accept the realities of the future. American cars, whether you agree or not is truly immaterial...the sales numbers tell the real story....simply are not desired by Americans. The truth is, you're going to buy what best fits your pocket book (and you have). Not what best fits America. And that....exactly....is why GM...and others should be allowed to fail.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 4:16:11 PM)
Will you come and take care of those of us who can't afford to move, because no one will buy our houses, and our stock driven retirements are gone? How about some nice fill-in jobs during the decade that the market takes to correct itself? I am not happy that me and my family are the collateral damage, let alone large numbers of my clients. Back in the early 80's, my mom was forecasting this whole disaster (yes, Cassandra Complex does run in the family). Doesn't help us much now, does it?

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 4:22:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Will you come and take care of those of us who can't afford to move, because no one will buy our houses, and our stock driven retirements are gone? How about some nice fill-in jobs during the decade that the market takes to correct itself? I am not happy that me and my family are the collateral damage, let alone large numbers of my clients. Back in the early 80's, my mom was forecasting this whole disaster (yes, Cassandra Complex does run in the family). Doesn't help us much now, does it? Your Mom was right...as was my Dad. My Dad always looked twice before crossing (economically speaking). I don't know where I got my Depression mentality, but I've always been scared shitless that someday the rest of the world was going to find out I didn't know shit...and take it all away. Thankfully that fear has kept me in a fear of failure enough such that I covered my bets before anyone else could call them in. I was talking to my Brother about this very subject just 3 days ago...and I countered my (above) argument with "but this doesn't cover those who were truly caught flat footed, unprepared, incapable of dealing with the aftermath (health, family calamities, meteorites)"....but it's the nature of things. Dinosaurs die. Meteorites land. Magnetic poles shift over time. Fortunately we, in our age, have advantages over the dinosaurs. We can move. It's not fun...and for the ones that have to change...it's even less fun. But it's a fact of life. (And by the way....Seattle is rather spectacular this time of year[8D] )

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 4:33:39 PM)
<<And by the way....Seattle is rather spectacular this time of year[8D] ) >> Dude. Get me a job, and I will move into a tent in your backyard. Might even wash your car...

toledotpeslave -> RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM! (11/16/2008 4:49:17 PM)
Without reading the whole thread, this "bailout" will not be for GM, but for the UAW. The UAW needs to die for Ohio and Michigan to be competitive on the global market. Strategic bankruptcy is the way to go, and that would enable the "Big" 3, or 2.8 to make a come back.

Page: << < prev 3 4 [5] 6 7 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875