Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail out GM!

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Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's bail... - 11/8/2008 8:05:25 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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I have really mixed feelings on bailing out General Motors.
At this point, I feel the government SHOULD bail out GM.

Newsvine - Meltdown 101: Why automakers might get bailed out

The loss of 2.5 MILLION jobs, in this economy does not make sense to me.
I think that the American auto industry needs to start making very
fuel efficient and inexpensive cars.
I also feel if WE bail out GM, WE should have some "say" in how they operate,
the cars they roll out, and how they "spend" the bailout money.

We are closer to a Depression than many of us realize.
Everybody is getting "bailed out" EXCEPT the American workers!
Bank bailouts, insurance bail outs, housing bail out, Wall street bail outs, now
Car bailouts? The states need bailouts, everyone needs to be bailed out!

How many of us really need fancy cars, with a million features that cost $40,000,
IN THIS ECONOMY?
Why not try to produce {gasp} affordable and reliable AMERICAN made
cars with a good warranty?

Maybe this is a chance for CHANGE in how American cars are made?
Maybe we can/could actually start to compete a bit more?

I would like to see the Auto Industries "bailed out" with stipulations that they make
fuel efficient, RELIABLE, well engineered, inexpensive/affordable cars!
Tell me am I dreaming here?
I want to Appointed to a position by President elect Obama, as "Secretary of Creative and Free
Thinking Alternatives".

Okay, I am looking for thoughts and IDEAS on the bailouts.
Especially GM, since they need the money soon.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/8/2008 8:38:59 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

Post #: 1

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:11:24 AM

LaTigresse

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Joined: 1/15/2006
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Let's not bail out GM, instead let it sink in it's own bloated carcass. They did it to themselves. In my opinion, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Instead, put the money into new industry to employ those people. Something tht makes sense for a new, greener world. Something that does not depend on oil. Something that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels. Something they know they can count on to remain solvent in years to come.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 2

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:17:13 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Let's not bail out GM, instead let it sink in it's own bloated carcass. They did it to themselves. In my opinion, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Instead, put the money into new industry to employ those people. Something tht makes sense for a new, greener world. Something that does not depend on oil. Something that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels. Something they know they can count on to remain solvent in years to come.

Wonderful idea LaT!
Restructure the whole damn company, and re-hire the employees!
But don't we still need to produce cars in America?
I think we need to re-structure, improve and build up American cars,
not lose the car industry!
We don't produce enough goods as it is!!!!
WE need to become a country of producers instead of consumers!!!!!!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 3

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:32:36 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

A manufacturer has to make products people want to buy and GM aren't doing that. I believe 51% of cars purchased in America are foreign makes (though many of those will be made in America.)

In a tough economic times like this, you have to find new markets and this is what several leading American Industrialists were complaining about a couple of years ago. American foreign policy is influencing people's choice of products in other countries to the detriment of American manufacturers. One of the biggest markets in recent years for European cars has been Russia and many Russians refuse to buy American cars on principle because of what it sees as American negative attitude to Russia.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 4

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:42:11 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

I was not pleased when I read that the new Chevy Volt will cost near $40,000. These things are supposed to save people money, not cost as much as a cheap house. Don't get me wrong, I could afford it maybe, but I will not pay that much. In fact I am more of a used car guy, I don't like the new cars. I don't like how they drive, steer, and a few other things like cost a million dollars to repair.

The Chevy Volt touts a climate control system, I want defrosters and hopefully a good heater. They tout a user configurable touch screen dash, I want a spedometer, oil pressure and temperature giages and either a volt or amp meter to see if the charging system is working.

Of course I want to be able to adjust the seats, back, AND forth even. I don't want 16 way power seats with a memory in the computer for up to twelve drivers, coded to their ignition key. Just give me a lever and I am perfectly capable of using it. I do not want power windows. I do not want antilock brakes, I want locking brakes. I know how to take my foot off the brake pedal in bad weather to regain control over steering. And I don't need twelve settings for the amount of power boost applied to the steering, in fact I don't even need power steering at all.

I want lights to come on when I open the door, but I want them to turn off immediately when I close the door. I don't want the doors to lock themselves when I put it in gear, I am perfectly capable of doing that on my own. I don't even want air bags, unless if they ever get deployed I can still drive home unless the damage to the running gear is too severe. It will be my decision, why else would I want to stay alive after a car wreck ?

I also want side mirrors that do not say "OBJECTS ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR" I want the object to appear as close as they really are. I know several people who can't drive with those things, and prefer a regular non-convex mirror.

A radio is optional. I don't need satellite radio with a nineteen speaker system developed by Bose, JBL, Alpine and Hughes Aircraft. I don't need satnav to get to work, I know where it is as I have been going there for over three years.

Let's put it this way, a Chevy Volt is not a recreational vehicle. Something like that should be designed as basic transportation, reliable and safe. To me safe means good brakes and suspension, not a computerized system that makes replacing a shock absorber more expensive than fixing a helicopter.

Really, if you can afford something fancy in which to take vacations etc., great. But just to get to work ? Just get me to work, and back home of course, that is all. And I don't want crushed velour or rich Corinthian leather seats, not after sitting on the floor half the day. (the stuff I work on is big and heavy) I just want seats that don't rip or tear easily, possibly cloth for those hot summers, but something tough.

Above all I want a car that I can keep for at least ten years.

Perhaps those days are over.

Perhaps we should bail GM out, but I am starting to think that any business that is bailed out with tax money should be nationalized. You failed, now we are taking over. For everyone else money talks, it is time for taxpayer money to talk.

T

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 5

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:43:27 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

A manufacturer has to make products people want to buy and GM aren't doing that. I believe 51% of cars purchased in America are foreign makes (though many of those will be made in America.)

In a tough economic times like this, you have to find new markets and this is what several leading American Industrialists were complaining about a couple of years ago. American foreign policy is influencing people's choice of products in other countries to the detriment of American manufacturers. One of the biggest markets in recent years for European cars has been Russia and many Russians refuse to buy American cars on principle because of what it sees as American negative attitude to Russia.

I agree to a point.
In my area almost every DOES drive a car.
Most people in America are going to drive cars, and need cars.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to "compete" and {gasp} sell cars that American's and
other countries want to BUY?

Even make large profits? Imagine making profits and NOT needing bailouts????
Perish the thought!

I drive a Toyota, and my last 2 cars were Toyota's I am not sure if they were made in
America or not, but they have all been DAMN reliable!
Why the hell CAN'T America compete by producing better cars?
As bad as the economy is, people will eventually have to replace their cars.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/8/2008 8:44:42 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 6

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:43:45 AM

subfever

Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline

No more bailouts. There never should have been any bailouts in the first place. Bailouts in general are just more band-aids... treating symptoms of poor structure or poor management.

If you want to help GM, go out and buy one of their new vehicles.

Can't afford one, or don't need one, you say? Assemble a number of bailout-minded people like yourself, and pool your resources. Buy a GM vehicle for the most needy family you know who is willing to use the vehicle to go out and work.

Start a trend. Set up a website. Go nationwide with the idea. Explore the potential for setting up a charity.

But don't put this additional burden on the backs of the public-at-large.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 7

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:46:23 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

No more bailouts. There never should have been any bailouts in the first place. Bailouts in general are just more band-aids... treating symptoms of poor structure or poor management.

If you want to help GM, go out and buy one of their new vehicles.

Can't afford one, or don't need one, you say? Assemble a number of bailout-minded people like yourself, and pool your resources. Buy a GM vehicle for the most needy family you know who is willing to use the vehicle to go out and work.

Start a trend. Set up a website. Go nationwide with the idea. Explore the potential for setting up a charity.

But don't put this additional burden on the backs of the public-at-large.

Problem is, I drive a Toyota {that I have no problems with}.
Let me add that my last 3 Toyota's were NOT brand new, they were all late model though.
I can buy a late model USED Toyota, get a Free certified used car warranty, and drive the hell out of it.

I said they need to be re-structured, tore up from the floor up and restructured.
They need to change their whole damn operation, including management.
They NEED to start producing a car that I want to purchase.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/8/2008 9:00:40 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 8

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:50:00 AM

subfever

Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I said they need to be re-structured, tore up from the floor up and rebuilt.

You mean, like our monetary system? ...

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 9

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:57:48 AM

nightphoenix

Posts: 139
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I said they need to be re-structured, tore up from the floor up and rebuilt.

You mean, like our monetary system? ...

Hehe yep. Reminds me of a friend...a university professor (well...not much of a reminder because it just happened this week), who is convinced America needs to just finish collapsing before it can rebuild...and so voted for Obama because he's convinced he'll be the best one to help the US finish collapsing. (Then the day after Obama was elected he renounced his American citizenship leaving the country.)

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 10

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 8:58:38 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Let's not bail out GM, instead let it sink in it's own bloated carcass. They did it to themselves. In my opinion, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Instead, put the money into new industry to employ those people. Something tht makes sense for a new, greener world. Something that does not depend on oil. Something that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels. Something they know they can count on to remain solvent in years to come.

Wonderful idea LaT!
Restructure the whole damn company, and re-hire the employees!
But don't we still need to produce cars in America?
I think we need to re-structure, improve and build up American cars,
not lose the car industry!
We don't produce enough goods as it is!!!!
WE need to become a country of producers instead of consumers!!!!!!

Mia, I totally agree with you.
About ten years ago I was talking to a mechanical engineer and I asked him if there was a differance in quality in American and Japanese cars and he said no.
He said that engineering is at the state now globally that any differances would be "minute."
So I can just imagine that engineering now is equal all over the world.
I've always driven Fords, trucks mostly and Mercurys and now a Lincoln MKS.
They build great cars and trucks!
The stereotype of American cars being "clunkers" persists with some people from the cars they drove back in the 70's and 80's.
And some of the cars were pretty bad in those days.
I've only had one or two minor problems with a Mercury that I owned back in the 80's.
Ford trucks are *known* for being *tough* and reliable!
You can really beat on them and it doesn't bother them at all.
With those type of vehicles you can get 200-400k miles on them and they still run great.
My brother is driving a 2001 Ford F-150 Lariat with 183,000 on it right now.
And yes, we need to become a producer again and start manufacturing things again!
Hopefully President Obama will get us out of that disaster called "NAFTA"!
I think that when McCain kept saying; "I'm a free-trader" and in Michigan that; "Those jobs aren't comming back" that sealed his fate.
That sounds pretty defeatist to me!
But, he was bought and payed for by companies who want to manufacture stuff in foreign countries cheaply and then have access to *our markets* so that they can sell that stuff at premium prices and by-pass the working people in this country.
But, they *still* want the workingman to pay full price on reduced wages.
That's called canibalising your markets.
You can only do that for so long and the birds are comming home to roost on their asses now.
Everyone in the world wants "access" to *our markets*!
They all want to sell here but many can't afford to buy our products.
You can't do "business" with third world countries.
People now realise that that "service economy" crap was a pipe dream!
As we all know or as some of us are beginning to understand, all this "free trade" crap doesn't work.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 11

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:03:13 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Let's not bail out GM, instead let it sink in it's own bloated carcass. They did it to themselves. In my opinion, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Instead, put the money into new industry to employ those people. Something tht makes sense for a new, greener world. Something that does not depend on oil. Something that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels. Something they know they can count on to remain solvent in years to come.

Let wall street bailout...er invest in GM and Mopar...they have all of our money now.

A whole lotta socialism is really start'n to look pretty good now...when investors are on the receiving end.

I am sick and tired of govt. (taxpayer) money being used to bailout the capitalist on the rationale of protecting or creating jobs. Those jobs are expendable when profits are at stake.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 12

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:03:49 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I said they need to be re-structured, tore up from the floor up and rebuilt.

You mean, like our monetary system? ...

Hehe yep. Reminds me of a friend...a university professor (well...not much of a reminder because it just happened this week), who is convinced America needs to just finish collapsing before it can rebuild...and so voted for Obama because he's convinced he'll be the best one to help the US finish collapsing. (Then the day after Obama was elected he renounced his American citizenship leaving the country.)

He sounds like someone who shouldn't have been a professor in the first place.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to nightphoenix)

Post #: 13

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:06:15 AM

MzMia

Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline

Popeye! Great post!
That was the best post you have written in a month!
I have to agree I am a victim of the 70s/80s American car thinking.
My first car was a 1980 Dodge Colt, it was always breaking down,
after that I ran out and started by used Toyota's.
I will certainly consider and research buying an American made car!
I would be PROUD to do so!

I agree, we need to focus on creating products and creating jobs,
and stop oursourcing America!

It is easy to focus on the auto industry, but what other products are even
made in America these days?

I agree we sold our country down the river a long time ago, and
we need to actually rebuild it.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/8/2008 9:19:09 AM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 14

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:10:56 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

Bailing out GM is not going to stop the world from being without cars. If the company I work for mismanaged their money and assets then went belly up, the government would not be there to save his ass. Sure, there would be a smaller number of people out of work, but size does not make a rotting carcass worth saving.

Why throw good money after bad? Take the money and invest it in a better carcass.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 15

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:12:13 AM

nightphoenix

Posts: 139
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
I said they need to be re-structured, tore up from the floor up and rebuilt.

You mean, like our monetary system? ...

Hehe yep. Reminds me of a friend...a university professor (well...not much of a reminder because it just happened this week), who is convinced America needs to just finish collapsing before it can rebuild...and so voted for Obama because he's convinced he'll be the best one to help the US finish collapsing. (Then the day after Obama was elected he renounced his American citizenship leaving the country.)

He sounds like someone who shouldn't have been a professor in the first place.

Except for being perhaps one of the most intelligent people I've ever known. (The kind of person that reads over half a dozen languages, understands the economy enough to bring in $350k+ annually due to market trades but stayed a professor because of his love of academia.)

So it's kinda silly to make an uninformed statement like that based off such little info. ;)

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 16

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:13:43 AM

UncleNasty

Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline

Bailouts pervert. They save some at the expense of others, and usually it is the many saving the few. I have said since the "threat" of bailouts began looming that I see no constitutional authority for bailouts and that I am against them. If we are going to have them at all I favor bailouts of people over bailouts of corporations.

I have always liked this Herbert Spencer quote, and feel it is applicable here:

"The ultimate reseult of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools."

I believe that the people no longer have a servant government. Do you feel your government is serving your interests? I'm sure others noted polls in re the 700bn bailout. Between 2/3 and 3/4 of people polled were against it. We got it anyway. In light of our having a representative form of government whose interests were served? Clearly not the peoples interests. Or is it merely a case of the people being too stupid to know what they want or need? That seems to be one of the possible implications.

The bailouts (yes, plural) continue to grow. The election distracted many from keeping up with the details and handouts, and the press made the election front page news while putting financial news further back. At this point many have lost interest. The attention span of many citizens is pretty short, and memory is as well. Also, as lending dries up, as businesses small and large struggle and fail, as unemployment continues to rise, as foreclosures continue to increase, many individuals are completely distracted by the necessity of trying to maintain their own "stuff" in the face of increasing personal and collective difficulties.

I also feel if WE bail out GM, WE should have some "say" in how they operate,
the cars they roll out, and how they "spend" the bailout money.

The bailout contiues to grow but things do not appear to be improving. Neither does the money that has been thrown at the problems give us (the people) or our elected representatives any menaingful say in how it is disbursed, spent or utilized. Billions ($250 I believe) have been given post bailout to encourage banks to begin lending again, to free up credit markets. But there are no teeth in the gift. Has the lending increased? No. Businesses are struggling and failing as a result. Banks and credit cards are unilaterally canceling accounts and reducing limits on both businesses and individuals. It will be no different in a bailout of GM.

Everytime I hear or read the phrase "too big to fail" what I hear and see is another phrase, "lender of last resort." In every case that lender is us, the people, you and me and our neighbors. I don't see that we're getting our moneys worth.

Uncle Nasty

I can't resist including this quote from TJ:

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propogation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 17

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:14:39 AM

subfever

Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Popeye! Great post!
That was the best post you have written in a month!

I agree, we need to focus on creating products and creating jobs,
and stop oursourcing America!

It is easy to focus on the auto industry, but what other products are even
made in America these days?

I agree we sold our country down the river a long time ago, and
we need to actually rebuild it.

The only way to rebuild the country is to purge those who are truly running the show, and work down from there. Until then, the only "rebuilding" you'll see will be the equivalent of giving a pacifier to a crying baby. But very few are interested in such dialog.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 18

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:23:36 AM

MasterG2kTR

Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

Let GM, Ford, and Chrysler collapse. They have been arrogant, ignorant and just plain greedy for far too long. For several decades now they have trashed the american worker. Most of their components are foreign made. The only thing they do is assemble the cars here, and in many of the models they don't even do that as they are made in Canada and then brought in under the NAFTA flag as an american product.

There was a time when the automakers took care of their employees, giving them good jobs with good pay, and even made it a generational workplace by hiring the children of those workers (in some cases 3 generations working side by side), assuring that the families would continue to thrive. I am not sure how exactingly true it is today, but about 20 years ago, the auto maker that used the most american materials, resources and labor here in the US was actually Honda! I believe that is still a fairly accurate assessment in that industry today though.

My feeling is that if the government wants to boost the auto industry, take a hard look at some of the recent startup companies that are building "green" cars, like the Tesla http://www.teslamotors.com/ and back them up with an influx of cash. That is where the future of the auto industry will be found.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 19

RE: Mixed feelings on "bail outs"/ BUT let's ... - 11/8/2008 9:24:29 AM

Serenelysmiles

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/7/2008
Status: offline

American cars even built entirely in America any more. The parts come from overseas, and now a lot of the vehicles do. GM has several plants in Juarez, Mexico, and China. I'm from Michigan originally. The state is littered with the empty hulks of factories that GM has shut down and left behind. They need to be allowed to drown in their own wave of misery. Last year the U S auto makers, including GM, were given 25 billion dollars by the federal government because they said they needed the money to be able to create new and more fuel efficient vehicles, and now GM comes back and says they need more. Obviously they are an obsolete dinosaur, nobody is buying their cars, and they need to make way for something new (actually biotech companies are becoming the staple industry in Michigan now); they need to quit spending our tax money to keep a sinking ship afloat. Some feel we can't afford to lose the jobs, but how long can we afford the price tag to keep bailing sinking corporations out.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 20

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